10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[Azharok]

Do you seriously need me to explain to you how different vanilla is from shadowlands? It's so obvious on its face that it feels like the type of person that would need that explained is the same type of person that is wasting my time by asking and disinterested in anything approaching a reasonable conversation.

They both have dungeons raids and battlegrounds... what changed ? More raid and dungeon difficulties, M+ and Arenas ! Obviously more openworld stuff to do, flying is a given too.. But at it's core, I don't see how the game has changed that dramatically.

But you seem to nitpick on litteraly anything.

[rhorle]

A time gate means it is locked until an arbitrary point in time.

Blizzard picks an arbitrary amount of time for leveling. It could be an hour, or it could be 3 months. It exists only to gate how quickly you get to the end game on an alt or for new players if they don't get a character boost.

I haven't declared victory. Stop with the constant lying and imaginary statements. lol.

[NineSpine]

They both have dungeons raids and battlegrounds... what changed ? More raid and dungeon difficulties, M+ and Arenas ! Obviously more openworld stuff to do, flying is a given too.. But at it's core, I don't see how the game has changed that dramatically.

But you seem to nitpick on litteraly anything.

Destiny 2 has dungeons and raids and pvp matches. It's just like wow! Seriously, what a waste of time this is.

[Azharok]

The core formula has changed dramatically. To deny this is just to engage in boring sophistry.

The core formula of WoW, your words, and you bring up Destiny 2. Please ....

[NineSpine]

Blizzard picks an arbitrary amount of time for leveling. It could be an hour, or it could be 3 months. It exists only to gate how quickly you get to the end game on an alt or for new players if they don't get a character boost.

I haven't declared victory. Stop with the constant lying and imaginary statements. lol.

Something taking time isn't time gating. Time gating is when there is a GATE that goes away at a specific TIME. You are just talking about things being gated behind completing content, which is the opposite of time gating.

How does it make the game more fun to put power progression behind content someone doesn't want to do?

[Amnaught]

If timer "creates" difficulty then its a shit content with artificially inflated difficulty.

What makes interesting difficulty is reaction times, strategies and its execution. Timer is just lazy design.

Imagine if souls games removed 90% of boss damage but added a timer which upon expiration makes boss one shot you with unavoidable aoe - its that kind of thing.

You mean like... an enrage timer? Or diminishing returns?

Killing a boss within a certain time frame should just be part of the boss. The goal should be to DEFEAT these bosses, not just stack tanking and healing until you can tick away the biggest bad's health over a few hours to get the highest reward. That honestly sounds boring as hell.

Though im of the belief that timers should be baked into the fight. Every fight. Pools of infinitely expanding lava, or gradually increasing boss damage, etc.

[NineSpine]

The core formula of WoW, your words, and you bring up Destiny 2. Please ....

Yes, the core formula of wow is completely different. For one obvious thing, leveling is a small part of the game now and it was the most major pillar of the game back then. The game also had a model of "Do content and gear up to unlock more content" while now you gear up to unlock higher difficulties of the same content. These are radically different models.

[Azharok]

Yes, the core formula of wow is completely different. For one obvious thing, leveling is a small part of the game now and it was the most major pillar of the game back then. The game also had a model of "Do content and gear up to unlock more content" while now you gear up to unlock higher difficulties of the same content. These are radically different models.

Opinions.

/10char

[NineSpine]

Opinions.

/10char

Nothing I said was an opinion. Those are factual differences between the versions of the game. Remember when I said I suspected you would waste my time if I bothered to explain? Thanks for proving me right.

[kamuimac]

What is the problem here, exactly? We're talking about keys well beyond the maximum loot threshold, so if some people want to do them in 3 hours who does that hurt, specifically?

I mean I hope you're not suggesting that it would somehow become normal for people doing +16s to afk for lust timers, because frankly I can't even be assed to wait for a 10+ minute battleground queue these days.

they are suggesting exackly this

i wont lie when i tank i sometimes think fondly about times when i could just wait those 4-5 seconds for my cds to be up without dps screaming to mooooove because tiiimer

but with m+ its impossible 99% of time

[Mendo Kusai]

Basically these two statements cancel each other out. A non-timer based M+ (if it rewards loot) will change how players engage with both systems. Because loot is at the end of both timer and no timer, it will factor into the calculus. Does a player spend the time necessary to build up a score to do timed M+ or ignore score and find someone with a high enough non-timed M+ key to run? Even if the non-timed M+ takes 4x as long to run, that may be a shorter time spent (overall) in M+ grinding.

You missunderstood a lot of what I was trying to say but I understand your concern, and yes a few details might need to be sorted, but if we can make it so you can ignore the new mode, if you only want the timed mode, would you be against that? If implemented successfully I really think it can be good for the game.
The only argument remaining would be that you don't think the non timed version deserves the gear, but we can talk about that later.

[Sialina]

they are suggesting exackly this

i wont lie when i tank i sometimes think fondly about times when i could just wait those 4-5 seconds for my cds to be up without dps screaming to mooooove because tiiimer

but with m+ its impossible 99% of time

As a tank you set the pace, if you need 5 seconds before a bigger pull just wait 5 seconds, it's not going to make a difference. We are doing 24-25 keys at the moment and we sometimes wait around 20+ seconds for things to line up before bigger pulls.
Remember you have Uhr in almost every pull now though, major CDR and full mana for the healer + massive party healing.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Not really convinced that queable content is a panacea. Games I play very casually like ESO and SWTOR have that for relevant currency and it's kinda miserable. If it provides good gear, every group is a few people just rushing through it, which is fine but not necessarily a great experience. Also there's more toxicity when different tiers of player are pushed together in my experience, and it gets tedious real quick. I'd rather have something like Visions or Torg with optional grouping if you have friends on.

[Glorious Leader]

No it was always a soccer field. They may have added badmington, but the main purpose was still soccer if you wanna go with my example.

It wasnt at least if we go by what people actually participated in.

[kaminaris]

You mean like... an enrage timer? Or diminishing returns?

Killing a boss within a certain time frame should just be part of the boss. The goal should be to DEFEAT these bosses, not just stack tanking and healing until you can tick away the biggest bad's health over a few hours to get the highest reward. That honestly sounds boring as hell.

Though im of the belief that timers should be baked into the fight. Every fight. Pools of infinitely expanding lava, or gradually increasing boss damage, etc.

Neither enrage timer or diminishing returns is comparable to M+ timer.

[Amnaught]

Neither enrage timer or diminishing returns is comparable to M+ timer.

Is that because you can use all of your long cooldowns on every boss if there's not a dungeon-wide time limit? Why not just remove the cooldowns then?

What else?

[Mendo Kusai]

Is that because you can use all of your long cooldowns on every boss if there's not a dungeon-wide time limit? Why not just remove the cooldowns then?

What else?

While I understand the temptation for people to use enrage timer as a comparison, it is not equivalent.
The equivalent would be if you enter the raid, and you now have 30m to kill the boss, if you fail you get less loot,
your kill is considered invalid and you are sent back to the previous difficulty.
Or if the timers in m+ were actual enrage on the bosses themself.
Neither is the case so it is simply incomparable. But I understand that on the surface it is similar.

[oplawlz]

As a tank you set the pace, if you need 5 seconds before a bigger pull just wait 5 seconds, it's not going to make a difference. We are doing 24-25 keys at the moment and we sometimes wait around 20+ seconds for things to line up before bigger pulls.
Remember you have Uhr in almost every pull now though, major CDR and full mana for the healer + massive party healing.

As someone who has occasionally tanked mythic+ pugs to his great regret I can confirm that no matter what number you're at if you pause at all some asshole, usually a mage, is going to cry about it. Nevermind the state of the healer or how far ahead of the timer you are. Obviously in a guild or friend group you're not going to have that problem.

[kaminaris]

Is that because you can use all of your long cooldowns on every boss if there's not a dungeon-wide time limit? Why not just remove the cooldowns then?

What else?

Pretty much everything.

Enrage makes encounter super hard to continue
M+ timer doesn't change difficulty (or even makes it easier in some seasons) once depleated

If you beat boss in enrage timer you progress to next boss
If you beat dungeon after M+ timer your key is downgraded

Enrage timer does not include trash between bosses
M+ timer includes all the dungeon bosses and trash

If you fail to kill a boss due to enrage you can simply try again exact same boss without having to beat previous one
If you fail to complete a dungeon due to timer your can't try again unless you find someone else with same key.

M+ timer is significantly longer than enrage making it inherently more prone to internet connection issues. Coupled with the fact you can't replace people in dungeon like you can in raids makes it much more pain in the ass.
Raid: Dude A has internet issues? Get someone from a bench and continue
M+: Dude A has internet issues? Welp guess key is gone, gg see you tomorrow

You don't really see enrage timer unless you continue with couple dpses dead.

Thus enrage timer is nowhere near comparable to M+ timer and the only thing they have in common is the word "timer".

[ifrah]

As someone who has occasionally tanked mythic+ pugs to his great regret I can confirm that no matter what number you're at if you pause at all some asshole, usually a mage, is going to cry about it. Nevermind the state of the healer or how far ahead of the timer you are. Obviously in a guild or friend group you're not going to have that problem.

This sort of applies to many other aspects of pugging too, at least in the <20 region. People are incapable or unwilling to think outside of their own little box, typically consisting of their overall damage meter only. The sort of ninja pulling / drama from doing any move that "ruins" their overall happens, but is not really a standard. As a tank or healer in general people throw the first shit at you when they don't like something.

- - - Updated / Not related to quote above- - -

Probably has been said already, but whatever, saying it again.
Without timers mythic+ turns essentially into 5man raiding: There's trash that is irrelevant as you can pull and chop things almost one mob at a time, and blast whatever cooldowns you need, if that's how you want to roll. And then the bosses where you sit down for all CDs before the pull.
The issue, however with the untimed challenge will be bosses well before the trash poses virtually any problems (given that you take the untimed approach and do all the CC, single pulls etc.).
Good or a bad thing, up to each of us to form their opinions, but at least I prefer the m+ trash having some relevance. Without timers there would be absolutely none.