Forget RDF, there is a bigger problem!

[Vorkreist]

I am gonna spend hours every day begging for invites, it's gonna be an unfair nightmare.

No. You're gonna spend hours everyday hoping someone makes an actual pug instead of gdkp run nr 4435454354 of the day.
Your ideas are such non-issues compared to how fucked classic is right now and it will be worse in Wrath.

[Battlebeard]

I was in a guild then and have been in one and will continue to be in the same guild for all of TBCC. Pretty easy to find a guild that plays at your play times. If you cannot commit to a guild I would say that WOTLK Classic is not for you as there is no LFR so what other reason is there to play outside of raiding.

Week one I might be able to play sunday night, tuesday night and nothing more.
Week two maybe wednesday night, saturday night, tuesday night.
Week three only friday

etc, no guild can possibly suit me. Pugging is doable for sure, just want the pugs to be more realistic.

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No. You're gonna spend hours everyday hoping someone makes an actual pug instead of gdkp run nr 4435454354 of the day.
Your ideas are such non-issues compared to how fucked classic is right now and it will be worse in Wrath.

There are many GDKPs, yes, but also many regular pugs too, especially when a raid is new. I don't care if they hard reserve stuff, just want a chance at an invite.

[Kralljin]

I do remember this, yes.
But it was more of a social change, a strongly held delusion that complex performance can be accurately measured and predicted from minimal data.

It now permeates every part of society, as untrue as it was back then. So in short: You're not gonna be able to avoid that.

It's not so much a delusion as playing a simple game of chance.

Most reasonable people are aware of that some achievement or Parse doesn't prove you're an excellent player, but rather it increases the odds of you being one.
This isn't debatable, that's just facts.

So if you don't have that, you would have basically have to sit down with every single person and have an indepth discussion whether they're competent or not.
However, when you have to fill a raid with 24 more people, you can't exactly do that because people expect a raid to be going within a reasonable timeframe, when it takes you ~2h to build a raid, then a lot of people will leave because they have other things to do.

If a pug raid isn't full within a reasonable timeframe, people will start to leave, so that's not an option.
Also, Sidenote: Being able to engage in such a talk does also not necessarily prove that you can actually pull it off in practice, nevermind that people also lie about their experience.
Check any place where people are looking for an Arena team, literally everyone just claims in there they've been Gladiator at some time.

The reality is simple, a person with some form of credentials is less likely to suck than someone who has them, so by engaging in that sort of gatekeeping you essentially increase the odds of having a competent player in your raid without having sacrificied too much time on checking each player.

Any person working in HR will tell you a similiar story when it comes to hiring, when you have 50-100 applicants for a single job, you can't have a hour long interview with all of them, because that's more than 100h of just interviewing applicants.
So they check their credentials, to weed out some people and narrow it down to a handful few, where having an interview is reasonable.

It will not go away for one simple reason: It works.
Raids without any requirements simply struggle in the grand scheme of things to consistently clear raids, let alone in a timely fashion.
That pisses off the player who joined these raids, who will likely look for raids that impose some standards and a raid leader will also likely take the hint and either impose some rules in order to have a smoother raid or stop making raids entirely, because let's be real, when a pug raid starts going south, it's often the leader who's having the least amount of fun.

If you can show the way to vet people without wasting too much time on each player, be my guest, but i'll will lay down two things.
1. Most people are terrible at this game and unless the content is absolutely bottom floor difficulty, people will fail on it.
2. I like to clear content in a fast and efficient manner but i'm not forcing anyone to play the game like me.
I'm just looking for similiar minded players and that simply requires to check people, because everyone loves to clean, fast clears but as said in 1., not everyone can deliver them.

When everyone copies those standards, then that's not on me, this is on those people of the lower end who want have the benefits that you get by imposing those standards.
It's up to the lower end players to seek out theirs and make their own groups, not bark up to the more engaged players and expect to let them into the tree house.

We've been told numerous times that those are the "silent majority", okay, then be the majority and go ahead, yet for some reason these people keep wanting into the tree house of the hardcore / engaged players and act surprised when they're not being let in.

This isn't some conspiracy, people simply have voted with their feet.

[loras]

It's not so much a delusion as playing a simple game of chance.

Most reasonable people are aware of that some achievement or Parse doesn't prove you're an excellent player, but rather it increases the odds of you being one.
This isn't debatable, that's just facts.

So if you don't have that, you would have basically have to sit down with every single person and have an indepth discussion whether they're competent or not.
However, when you have to fill a raid with 24 more people, you can't exactly do that because people expect a raid to be going within a reasonable timeframe, when it takes you ~2h to build a raid, then a lot of people will leave because they have other things to do.

If a pug raid isn't full within a reasonable timeframe, people will start to leave, so that's not an option.
Also, Sidenote: Being able to engage in such a talk does also not necessarily prove that you can actually pull it off in practice, nevermind that people also lie about their experience.
Check any place where people are looking for an Arena team, literally everyone just claims in there they've been Gladiator at some time.

The reality is simple, a person with some form of credentials is less likely to suck than someone who has them, so by engaging in that sort of gatekeeping you essentially increase the odds of having a competent player in your raid without having sacrificied too much time on checking each player.

Any person working in HR will tell you a similiar story when it comes to hiring, when you have 50-100 applicants for a single job, you can't have a hour long interview with all of them, because that's more than 100h of just interviewing applicants.
So they check their credentials, to weed out some people and narrow it down to a handful few, where having an interview is reasonable.

It will not go away for one simple reason: It works.
Raids without any requirements simply struggle in the grand scheme of things to consistently clear raids, let alone in a timely fashion.
That pisses off the player who joined these raids, who will likely look for raids that impose some standards and a raid leader will also likely take the hint and either impose some rules in order to have a smoother raid or stop making raids entirely, because let's be real, when a pug raid starts going south, it's often the leader who's having the least amount of fun.

If you can show the way to vet people without wasting too much time on each player, be my guest, but i'll will lay down two things.
1. Most people are terrible at this game and unless the content is absolutely bottom floor difficulty, people will fail on it.
2. I like to clear content in a fast and efficient manner but i'm not forcing anyone to play the game like me.
I'm just looking for similiar minded players and that simply requires to check people, because everyone loves to clean, fast clears but as said in 1., not everyone can deliver them.

When everyone copies those standards, then that's not on me, this is on those people of the lower end who want have the benefits that you get by imposing those standards.
It's up to the lower end players to seek out theirs and make their own groups, not bark up to the more engaged players and expect to let them into the tree house.

We've been told numerous times that those are the "silent majority", okay, then be the majority and go ahead, yet for some reason these people keep wanting into the tree house of the hardcore / engaged players and act surprised when they're not being let in.

This isn't some conspiracy, people simply have voted with their feet.

Sorry mate, haven't read beyond the bolded part, as that's just the perfect illustration of the delusion in question.
It all boils down to a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of chance, and that shit is the default in humans so no worries.
Ad i've said: This is not the right language for me to discuss it, i'm fairly fluent in English but even in my native language this material is hard to discuss.

If you're genuinely interested in the matter you could see if the "Vrije Universiteit" of Amsterdam offers publically available material in English nowadays, you're looking for econometrics ("econometrie").
They used to have an excellent teacher there that taught me, but i'm terrible with names so i forgot his. He's worked on correcting some high profile abuses of statistics in the legal system, but i'm guessing this will not have been reported on much in english.

[Kralljin]

Sorry mate, haven't read beyond the bolded part, as that's just the perfect illustration of the delusion in question.

No, it's not.

If you hire someone with an degree in Engineering for an Engineering job and then some random person off the street, it will not take a genius to figure out who's more likely to do a better job at being an engineer.

Seriously, i literally said this in another post: When i didn't check on people, they fucked up hard.
And i'm not just seeing this in my pug, i see this in other pugs as well.

This belief that you can simply take a random person and have equal or better success is just lying to yourself.

[Makaloff]

[QUOTE=Battlebeard;53756265]It's easy to get into raids in TBC, very easy. One can simply say "I did it back in the day" and it was not questioned.





You are right, I don't have any friends in game, cannot guildraid, and I struggle ALOT getting grounds every single week, and it sucks. I just want the game playable for me.

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I really hope you are right. But considering how bad Retail is, that I still haven't managed to find ONE pug for Sepulcher Normal mode even tells something about the community. The game gets more elitistic every day and it's not looking good for WotLK either

well Sepulcher is quite a hard raid and many focus more on M+ than raiding nowadays. SL overall havent been good so people rather not bother doing sepulcher. Id say give it a chance, the old raids were easy and they will be cleared without problems i can promise you.

[loras]

No, it's not.

If you hire someone with an degree in Engineering for an Engineering job and then some random person off the street, it will not take a genius to figure out who's more likely to do a better job at being an engineer.

Seriously, i literally said this in another post: When i didn't check on people, they fucked up hard.
And i'm not just seeing this in my pug, i see this in other pugs as well.

This belief that you can simply take a random person and have equal or better success is just lying to yourself.

Degrees are designed to be a proper test, these random scores really are not.
And even then it is worth noting that there are still plenty retarded engineers out there, with such degrees and tests degrading over time as generations wash over them, figuring out their flaws and exploiting them; the quality even of institutional guarantees fluctuates as such, can you imagine how badly that goes for simpler systems? Let alone ones that never really were worth much in the first place.

The point is that people vastly misestimate how much they control they can exert, and confronting them with that will usually just lead to them holding on more firmly and emotionally to what little they think they can control.
The result is a paralysed "market" full of screechers and "shortages".

At least in the real world these things are starting to improve thanks to punishing market circumstances mercilesly bearing down on such delusions, a good motivator to find actually competent people and keep them, rather than to be on the hunt for those who tick off the boxes.
Perhaps WoW will reflect this in due time.

[Kralljin]

Degrees are designed to be a proper test, these random scores really are not.

These aren't random either, you don't get them randomnly, you get them by engaging in that content and by that, giving you better odds that you know what to do.
After all, that person is doing it for a 2nd time on paper.

Whereas the other person is literally doing it for the 1st time.

And even then it is worth noting that there are still plenty retarded engineers out there, with such degrees and tests degrading over time as generations wash over them, figuring out their flaws and exploiting them; the quality even of institutional guarantees fluctuates as such, can you imagine how badly that goes for simpler systems? Let alone ones that never really were worth much in the first place.

Okay, would you by that logic entrust some random person off the street to do a calculation whether a machine or object can be actually lifted by a crane and not break down, cause massive damage and possibly harm other people?
When we talk about something like college degrees and shit, you've already excluded a massive portion of the population who by all likelihood could not do the basics of this job.

The point is that people vastly misestimate how much they control they can exert, and confronting them with that will usually just lead to them holding on more firmly and emotionally to what little they think they can control.
The result is a paralysed "market" full of screechers and "shortages".

Again, i can tell you from first hand experience in my pug and every pug i'm in, people without decent logs usually did not perform very well.

That doesn't mean i had no negative surprises from people with decent logs - i did, but when looking at the people without logs, we're talking about something in the range of 80% - 90% disappointment, whereas on the other end, it's much, much lower.

a good motivator to find actually competent people and keep them, rather than to be on the hunt for those who tick off the boxes.
Perhaps WoW will reflect this in due time.

Yeah, i can tell you why this will not happen in WoW: When you look to hire a person for a high skilled job, you plan on keeping these for years if not decades, as every employer already invests massive amounts of money into a new employee, especially for those high skilled jobs.

As pugleader, i don't plan on keeping every person for months or even years, they're much closer to Freelancers, where one hires them for a job, they do it and then the partnership ends.
After all, that is the freedom that pugs provide, that others don't expect you to sign up every week.

And your entire argument also completely ignores that i cannot invest (nor i am willing to) a significant amount of into vetting people, because some sort of talk has to happen to get a guess on their knowledge.

[crusadernero]

What do you mean? I want to replay WotLK classic, just like I replayed Classic and TBC Classic, I wanna enjoy the content again. But since I already done it, it's absurd that one will be required to link an achievement.

Where in the game does it require you to link an achivement? No place. Its not a req the game has made, its player driven.

I get your sentiment but if you really want to clear content via pugging, you can do so. Its possible. Much more work? Quite so. Even when you join a pug raid were everyone has achivs, good ratings or whatever - the raid might go to hell.

Thats the pug life.

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Week one I might be able to play sunday night, tuesday night and nothing more.
Week two maybe wednesday night, saturday night, tuesday night.
Week three only friday

etc, no guild can possibly suit me. Pugging is doable for sure, just want the pugs to be more realistic.

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There are many GDKPs, yes, but also many regular pugs too, especially when a raid is new. I don't care if they hard reserve stuff, just want a chance at an invite.

With that time investment retail wow is probably better suited. Or well, WotLK rapidly changes how much time you gotta invest at max level. Classic & BC required more prep time outside of raids, much less so in WotLK.

Besides, most raids will be easy. As in classic & BC. Pugging will work just fine.

BTW, If there werent achivs people would check your gearscore. If that wasnt a thing either, they would check armory, /inspect or check parses.

There will always be a way to measure a players skill and/or knowledge of the raids & fights. Always.

[loras]

These aren't random either, you don't get them randomnly, you get them by engaging in that content and by that, giving you better odds that you know what to do.
After all, that person is doing it for a 2nd time on paper.

Whereas the other person is literally doing it for the 1st time.

Okay, would you by that logic entrust some random person off the street to do a calculation whether a machine or object can be actually lifted by a crane and not break down, cause massive damage and possibly harm other people?
When we talk about something like college degrees and shit, you've already excluded a massive portion of the population who by all likelihood could not do the basics of this job.

Again, i can tell you from first hand experience in my pug and every pug i'm in, people without decent logs usually did not perform very well.

That doesn't mean i had no negative surprises from people with decent logs - i did, but when looking at the people without logs, we're talking about something in the range of 80% - 90% disappointment, whereas on the other end, it's much, much lower.

Yeah, i can tell you why this will not happen in WoW: When you look to hire a person for a high skilled job, you plan on keeping these for years if not decades, as every employer already invests massive amounts of money into a new employee, especially for those high skilled jobs.

As pugleader, i don't plan on keeping every person for months or even years, they're much closer to Freelancers, where one hires them for a job, they do it and then the partnership ends.
After all, that is the freedom that pugs provide, that others don't expect you to sign up every week.

And your entire argument also completely ignores that i cannot invest (nor i am willing to) a significant amount of into vetting people, because some sort of talk has to happen to get a guess on their knowledge.

Let me summarise your post as "anecdote" and be done with it. I have already referred you to proper sourcing earlier, the rest i do not have the patience for.

[Kralljin]

Let me summarise your post as "anecdote" and be done with it. I have already referred you to proper sourcing earlier, the rest i do not have the patience for.

Let's make one thing clear: naming a single university in not a proper source.

And someone who implies to have done academic research on a subject should know that.

[alexs]

No, it's not.

If you hire someone with an degree in Engineering for an Engineering job and then some random person off the street, it will not take a genius to figure out who's more likely to do a better job at being an engineer.

Seriously, i literally said this in another post: When i didn't check on people, they fucked up hard.
And i'm not just seeing this in my pug, i see this in other pugs as well.

This belief that you can simply take a random person and have equal or better success is just lying to yourself.

I agree fully, linking the achievement is showing proof that the person has done the raid at least once. Unless someone you know that's in the raid has positive to say about x person who is trying to get invite to your raid, but doesn't have the achievement, i'd also say that's also "approve-able" for an invite.

[loras]

Let's make one thing clear: naming a single university in not a proper source.

And someone who implies to have done academic research on a subject should know that.

I know, i plainly admitted that my lack of patience is the motivator for not continueing, as well as earlier mentioned language and form limitations.
It's also worth noting that we're not exactly having an academic level discussion.

[Ham on Rye]

OP is the poster boy for "mad because bad"

[Kralljin]

I know, i plainly admitted that my lack of patience is the motivator for not continueing, as well as earlier mentioned language and form limitations.
It's also worth noting that we're not exactly having an academic level discussion.

Then it's frankly an absolutely dumbass move to bring it up all, especially when you also literally say to me "Go ahead, look it up", as if i would now waltz through an university page i've never been to and look up the paper on some subject to proof your statement.

And no, that has nothing to do with academic level discussion, it's just common courtesy.

[loras]

Then it's frankly an absolutely dumbass move to bring it up all, especially when you also literally say to me "Go ahead, look it up", as if i would now waltz through an university page i've never been to and look up the paper on some subject to proof your statement.

And no, that has nothing to do with academic level discussion, it's just common courtesy.

Sorry mate, not worth the effort.

[Izzyfurious]

Ahhhhh this OP i remember have wanted everyone to revolt about his gameplay threads since many of the last months. Now he came back from the dead to do it again for the umpteen time!

Yawn.

[Battlebeard]

Where in the game does it require you to link an achivement? No place. Its not a req the game has made, its player driven.

I get your sentiment but if you really want to clear content via pugging, you can do so. Its possible. Much more work? Quite so. Even when you join a pug raid were everyone has achivs, good ratings or whatever - the raid might go to hell.

Thats the pug life.

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With that time investment retail wow is probably better suited. Or well, WotLK rapidly changes how much time you gotta invest at max level. Classic & BC required more prep time outside of raids, much less so in WotLK.

Besides, most raids will be easy. As in classic & BC. Pugging will work just fine.

BTW, If there werent achivs people would check your gearscore. If that wasnt a thing either, they would check armory, /inspect or check parses.

There will always be a way to measure a players skill and/or knowledge of the raids & fights. Always.

Yes, there will be ways to check players, but achievements make it too convinient. If I was the head of Blizzard, I would close the armory, remove achievements for raid clears, remove ilvl, add a "private profile" option, so you cannot be inspected, and ban any addon that tracks gear or progress or performance (indirectly killing logs).

Checking players is a BAD THING, it kills the community and remove any trust. And a good start is to not have achievements in WotLK. If there is no achievement, people might actually talk instead, and then I can tell em I know the fights from back in the day and they might actually listen and care.

[Krixooks]

Personally I'd be happy if they did not add Achievements, Heirlooms or RDF.