STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[NineSpine]

???

The "boosting explosion" was in full swing in MoP. You'd see people selling CMode boosts all day, every day. ou'd see Heroic SoO boosts. You'd see Garrosh boosts. (Demand skyrocketed when they added the BoA items to his loot table.) It wasn't a secret. It wasn't underground. It wasn't taboo. A buddy of mine got through college by doing RMT boosts on the side (he was making $3k+/mo). Gold selling spam was also in full swing. I played on US-Illidan back in MoP and you literally could not use trade channel unless you downloaded an add-on called BlockChinese because the gold selling spam was so bad. I mean, hell, there was so much gold selling on Illidan that the server currently has multiple Chinese-language guilds on it because they got so bored of farming gold that they decided to kill bosses instead.

Additionally, you seem to be implying that the people who boost today only do so after buying a token, or that the people who boosted in the days before the token only boosted with gold they bought from Chinese gold farmers. There's absolutely no correlation to be made here because we have no idea what people do with the gold they get from tokens nor do we have any proof that boosts prior to the token's existence were primarily RMT. (Some were, obviously, as my own example indicates.) That's not to say that I think the token is beyond reproach or that I wholesale condemn gold selling and RMT in this game; just that the whole "token = bad" and "remove token = game good" argument is pretty weak since it does nothing to address the underlying issue... the fact that people who want to get boosted will find ways to get boosted regardless of whether Blizzard provides a tacit endorsement.

The idea that there would be equal or more boosting if Blizzard didn't endorse it is fundamentally illogical.

Outside my window right now, a car that parked on the grass is getting towed. It's the first person that Ive ever seen park on the grass here. By your logic, they should take away the rules against parking on the grass because anyone who wants to park on the grass clearly does it anyway because this guy did. In fact, they should sell on-grass parking passes and the number of people parking on the grass surely would not change!

[Relapses]

So the token alongside M+ made it somewhat of a well designed system specifically meant for that kind of service imho.

I don't think the token alone is responsible though.

All you're saying is that there are more pieces of content for players to boost (or be boosted in), not that the demand for boosting has suddenly skyrocketed. Naturally this will have the knock-on effect of making it seem like boosting is more prevalent but I honestly don't think it's much different now than it was before the token. I also don't think that removing the token will have any impact on the game outside of making it more difficult for players who aren't currently boosting to afford anything. (Almost prohibitively so, given the cost of things like Legendary base items right now.)

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The idea that there would be equal or more boosting if Blizzard didn't endorse it is fundamentally illogical.

I know that I'm not currently boosting (though I definitely could) because I'd rather buy a token than get "paid" to play the game. If the token didn't exist, I would be boosting because it'd be the only way for me to afford the raid mats I use when I run keys. (Not a fan of the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and create a bunch of farming alts" or the "just play the AH" approach to wealth creation in this game.) Since removing the token does nothing to cease the demand for boosting, it'd just shove more players like me into the boosting role out of necessity... thereby further eroding whatever imaginary benefit you think not having the token around presents.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

So I'll throw in my 2 cents as far as why I and many, many others quit this game.
.

Going to guess feral :P

Anyway yeah, I do get this to some degree! The game is generally more balanced than over, though they are so to rein in outliers. And the modern world is all about optimization and tier lists (you can fire up a single player game and find tier lists for everything, it goes way beyond wow) so the outliers end up defining perception. Like how fire mage was just left completely broken for a year in BFA and destro and Sv are in that spot now. Almost everything else is *reasonably* close.

I personally still think utility and stuff is the biggest gap outside of outliers, and it can be kinda depressing. Every time I think about playing my paladin (for example) it's just like "well it does 20% less damage than my marks hunter and has crappy utility no one really looks for and oh and its melee who no one wants." Hopefully talents really help out with this if less time is spent on the temporary junk and invested in classes instead!

[NineSpine]

All you're saying is that there are more pieces of content for players to boost (or be boosted in), not that the demand for boosting has suddenly skyrocketed. Naturally this will have the knock-on effect of making it seem like boosting is more prevalent but I honestly don't think it's much different now than it was before the token. I also don't think that removing the token will have any impact on the game outside of making it more difficult for players who aren't currently boosting to afford anything. (Almost prohibitively so, given the cost of things like Legendary base items right now.)

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I know that I'm not currently boosting (though I definitely could) because I'd rather buy a token than get "paid" to play the game. If the token didn't exist, I would be boosting because it'd be the only way for me to afford the raid mats I use when I run keys. (Not a fan of the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and create a bunch of farming alts" or the "just play the AH" approach to wealth creation in this game.) Since removing the token does nothing to cease the demand for boosting, it'd just shove more players like me into the boosting role out of necessity... thereby further eroding whatever imaginary benefit you think not having the token around presents.

I don't care about non-RMT boosting.

Removing the token does reduce the demand for RMT-rooted boosting. That's just a fact. The idea that permitting something makes fewer people do it is ridiculous.

[Relapses]

I don't care about non-RMT boosting.

Removing the token does reduce the demand for RMT-rooted boosting. That's just a fact. The idea that permitting something makes fewer people do it is ridiculous.

If you actually think that the umpteen thousands of RMT-adjacent Discord communities who currently serve hundreds and thousands of paying customers would suddenly dry up the instant the token disappeared then I have some oceanfront property in CO to sell you.

Full stop, the game is too far gone. It was too far gone when they introduced the token. The token is a symptom of an underlying endemic that Blizzard has no hope of ever solving unless they quite literally give everybody Mythic gear for logging into the game.

[NineSpine]

If you actually think that the umpteen thousands of RMT-adjacent Discord communities who currently serve hundreds and thousands of paying customers would suddenly dry up the instant the token disappeared then I have some oceanfront property in CO to sell you.

Full stop, the game is too far gone. It was too far gone when they introduced the token. The token is a symptom of an underlying endemic that Blizzard has no hope of ever solving unless they quite literally give everybody Mythic gear for logging into the game.

"If you actually think that the umpteen thousands of robbers would suddenly dry up the instant we made robbery a crime, then I have some oceanfront property in CO to sell you."

No shit, of course there will always be some degree of RMT. The question is whether allowing it or disallowing it means there is more or less of it, and the answer is clear. There will also always be hackers, but that isn't an argument for Blizzard to sell hacks.

Blizzard could solve the problem the way.... nearly every other game like WoW does. RMT is not nearly as big a deal in plenty of other games, such as Destiny 2 and FF14. Does it exist? Sure. But it isn't comparable to WoW where it is endemic to the everyday functioning of players.

[Caprias]

"If you actually think that the umpteen thousands of robbers would suddenly dry up the instant we made robbery a crime, then I have some oceanfront property in CO to sell you."

No shit, of course there will always be some degree of RMT. The question is whether allowing it or disallowing it means there is more or less of it, and the answer is clear. There will also always be hackers, but that isn't an argument for Blizzard to sell hacks.

Blizzard could solve the problem the way.... nearly every other game like WoW does. RMT is not nearly as big a deal in plenty of other games, such as Destiny 2 and FF14. Does it exist? Sure. But it isn't comparable to WoW where it is endemic to the everyday functioning of players.

These games are fundamentally differently designed in their content, there is also boosting going on for ultimates in ff14, there's overall just a whole lot less reasons to do so, I wouldn't design WoW around that though..

I fully agree with @Relapses, the game was too far gone MoP and beyond in that regard, the amount of gold you could do with WoD CM boosting was insane, it was the sole reason I didn't bother with my garrison for gold making, you could get goldcapped in a week through boosting CM, the market was huuuuge.

The WoW-Token increased accessibility and maybe increased boosting by a few%... doesn't really matter in the grand scheme.

[NineSpine]

These games are fundamentally differently designed in their content, there is also boosting going on for ultimates in ff14, there's overall just a whole lot less reasons to do so, I wouldn't design WoW around that though..

I fully agree with @Relapses, the game was too far gone MoP and beyond in that regard, the amount of gold you could do with WoD CM boosting was insane, it was the sole reason I didn't bother with my garrison for gold making, you could get goldcapped in a week through boosting CM.

The WoW-Token increased accessibility and maybe increased boosting by a few%... doesn't really matter in the grand scheme.

FF14 and WoW are not dissimilar games, at all. In fact, FF14 is easily the most similar game to WoW in the entire market.

Blizzard could nuke almost all RMT tomorrow by just providing a path for all characters to expect BiS in every patch doing the content they like to do. Instead, Blizzard artificially created scarcity and then profits off of it.

[Blackmist]

It's not made for the top 0.01%. It's not made for the casuals either. This is something players perpetuate to make themselves feel better.

It's now made for shareholders, and to milk the players too stubborn to take the hint and quit.

[Breccia]

Lets be realistic, when something is exposed and more people know it, more people use it, thats a fact.

Hey, that's what I told the cops when they caught me with my d*cough*

So, on topic: I have to say, the sliding scale of Normal-LFG, Heroic, Mythic, and Keystones are about as good a sliding difficulty scale as I can remember the game ever having. I would say "I'm surprised they haven't done this with raids yet" but
a) no I'm not, raids are far more involved than dungeons, and
b) Season 4 is making some noise along those lines.

[Caprias]

FF14 and WoW are not dissimilar games, at all. In fact, FF14 is easily the most similar game to WoW in the entire market.

Blizzard could nuke almost all RMT tomorrow by just providing a path for all characters to expect BiS in every patch doing the content they like to do. Instead, Blizzard artificially created scarcity and then profits off of it.

I'm not sure if they really created it or if they're just trying to hold the curve, there was always a "hardcore" 1-2% in WoW since classic and content to "aspire" to.

But to come a bit back to the threads topic, I just disagree that this is designing the full game towards that niche, FF14 is regarded as the more casual friendly game but also has 1-2% stuff like the ultimates, hell DSR might be the hardest mmorpg encounter ever created showing off what their encounter team is capable off, is FF14 now fully catered towards that niche group of players?

WoW needs more casual side content instead of completely redesigning their well working progression and content curve imo., Ion has already commented on that in the Asmongold interview that they're simply under serving open world players and the like, for everyone else there's an avenue of gear progression that works out, it doesn't need to be BiS and neither does FF14 gives you that without stepping into Savage.

I'm pretty sure that the people crying for a path to BiS are ex-raiders that aged and don't have the means/time anymore and are just projecting, should we cater to that group because they don't feel special and excluded of the "hardcore" treadmill?

[KrayZ33]

All you're saying is that there are more pieces of content for players to boost (or be boosted in), not that the demand for boosting has suddenly skyrocketed. Naturally this will have the knock-on effect of making it seem like boosting is more prevalent but I honestly don't think it's much different now than it was before the token. I also don't think that removing the token will have any impact on the game outside of making it more difficult for players who aren't currently boosting to afford anything. (Almost prohibitively so, given the cost of things like Legendary base items right now.)
.

More content to boost through = more players will have an interest in such activities.
While someone might not be interested in transmogs or mounts, another might be interested in gear.
When more boosters are available, prices might be more affordable as well - which in turn means more players might be interested. etc. etc.

Why do you think removing the token will make items unavailable or unachievable in the AH btw..
It didn't before and it wouldn't without it.
Items sell for what people can afford.

If anything or rather the opposite of your view: the token increases prices because more people will pay huge sums for stuff and people who don't use the system can't afford it unless "they play a lot."
I don't want to go even more off-topic but the legendary base items work in tandem with the token as well. It's part of the shitty system.
Wouldn't be suprised to hear about a lot of people buying a token so they can afford that shit. (important, class defining playerpower they've always gotten for free in previous expansions)
And the people buying the token are probably the guys selling the base items.

I mean, there are lots of ways to make money in this game. They all require you to play though.... now you can just pay $, which drives up AH prices as more people are willing to pay for stuff that would be, without the token, way over their "Weekly-WoW-paycheck"

In my opinion you just shouldn't be able to get gold with money, if some do it through Gold sellers, so be it (ban them if you can)... but I don't think you will disagree when I tell you that %-wise, the players willing to get gold through the token is higher than the amount of people that did so from shady gold-seller sites.
The same thing applies to boosting. It's not only "easier", it's more secure as well when I can give someone in game gold instead of going through a 3rd party website that wants me to do a transaction or something for a boost.

[NineSpine]

I'm not sure if they really created it or if they're just trying to hold the curve, there was always a "hardcore" 1-2% in WoW since classic and content to "aspire" to.

But to come a bit back to the threads topic, I just disagree that this is designing the full game towards that niche, FF14 is regarded as the more casual friendly game but also has 1-2% stuff like the ultimates, hell DSR might be the hardest mmorpg encounter ever created showing off what their encounter team is capable off, is FF14 now fully catered towards that niche group of players?

WoW needs more casual side content instead of completely redesigning their well working progression and content curve imo., Ion has already commented on that in the Asmongold interview that they're simply under serving open world players and the like, for everyone else there's an avenue of gear progression that works out, it doesn't need to be BiS and neither does FF14 gives you that without stepping into Savage.

The reason their casual game is borked is BECAUSE of the way the rest of the game is designed. Casually playing dungeons was ruined by M+ being added. Casually playing BGs was ruined by rated PvP being made the only progression path. Adding more open world stuff doesn't solve this problem.

[Relapses]

These games are fundamentally differently designed in their content, there is also boosting going on for ultimates in ff14, there's overall just a whole lot less reasons to do so, I wouldn't design WoW around that though..

I fully agree with @Relapses, the game was too far gone MoP and beyond in that regard, the amount of gold you could do with WoD CM boosting was insane, it was the sole reason I didn't bother with my garrison for gold making, you could get goldcapped in a week through boosting CM, the market was huuuuge.

The WoW-Token increased accessibility and maybe increased boosting by a few%... doesn't really matter in the grand scheme.

You'll have to forgive me but I simply do not think the niche problem of RMT existing in WoW is worth a complete revamp of how loot works in it. It's not like WoW's loot system is new. It's been this way since day one. Commensurate rewards for commensurate effort. Boosting is a way to bypass the effort part of the equation and it's been something that players have sought since Vanilla. This was plainly evident with the popularity of Chinese gold farming leading up to the introduction of the token. And say what you will about the token, but it has actually had a noticeable impact on the gold selling problem that the game had prior to its existence. Now, you can turn around and frame the token as "Blizzard profiting from boosting" because of the symbiotic nature of RMT and boosting; but as I've said in other similar topics, the admin for one of the largest boosting communities shared that if every boost they did were RMT it'd only amount to a couple million... so compared to what they're bringing in from subscriptions and other stuff, boosting from the token likely accounts for an extremely small percentage of their total revenue.

[Caprias]

The reason their casual game is borked is BECAUSE of the way the rest of the game is designed. Casually playing dungeons was ruined by M+ being added. Casually playing BGs was ruined by rated PvP being made the only progression path. Adding more open world stuff doesn't solve this problem.

But you can casually run lower M+ dungeons, the timer is irrelevant, same for bgs and many players do that.

Will you get the bestestest gear out of that? Nope, but why would you?

[NineSpine]

But you can casually run lower M+ dungeons, the timer is irrelevant, same for bgs and many players do that.

Will you get the bestestest gear out of that? Nope, but why would you?

Casual means solo or queue based content. Once you are organizing groups, it isn't casual content anymore.

The truth is that the gear ladder for casual content is so absurdly short that you run out of things to do pretty quickly and then you are pushed into non-casual content. The reason this happens is to accommodate M+, rated BGs, and normal+ raiding.

[Caprias]

Casual means solo or queue based content. Once you are organizing groups, it isn't casual content anymore.

The truth is that the gear ladder for casual content is so absurdly short that you run out of things to do pretty quickly and then you are pushed into non-casual content. The reason this happens is to accommodate M+, rated BGs, and normal+ raiding.

I'm still busy finishing stuff up in 6.1 so I haven't looked into Zereth Morthis all that much, but isn't that a good step in that direction? This is the first time you can get tier sets for doing open world content and it gives you ilvl above normal raid iirc.

And as for the progression pacing that's probably just more the lack of overall content/patch cadence of shadowlands, calling that "catering to the 1%" would be quite laughable though, I'd also like to add that a reaaaally long progression curve and with that grind for open world players doesn't seem very casual to me either.

[ellieg]

Casual means solo or queue based content. Once you are organizing groups, it isn't casual content anymore.

Nope. Wrong

[NineSpine]

Nope. Wrong

50% of wow players never do content that isn't solo or queued. I'm calling that the casual playerbase. You call it whatever you want, because arguing about definition is boring. I'll still be the one with a clear, definitive line for what is casual.

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I'm still busy finishing stuff up in 6.1 so I haven't looked into Zereth Morthis all that much, but isn't that a good step in that direction? This is the first time you can get tier sets for doing open world content and it gives you ilvl above normal raid iirc.

And as for the progression pacing that's probably just more the lack of overall content/patch cadence of shadowlands, calling that "catering to the 1%" would be quite laughable though, I'd also like to add that a reaaaally long progression curve and with that grind for open world players doesn't seem very casual to me either.

ZM is a step in the right direction and a step in the wrong direction. They need to open up more day to day content to casual players, not railroad them into one zone.

Casual, as I'm using it, has nothing to do with time investment. It's about doing solo/queued content or doing organized content.

[ellieg]

50% of wow players never do content that isn't solo or queued. I'm calling that the casual playerbase. You call it whatever you want, because arguing about definition is boring. I'll still be the one with a clear, definitive line for what is casual.

Casual is players that don't stick to a set schedule and play off and on as they please. Theres your clear definitive line.

If you wanna call the guy that logs on 16 hours a day to do every single daily and farm achieves casual because he dsnt manually form groups, you do that lol