[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Henako]

Someone help me understand. I mined a bunch of stuff and put in a work order at the refinery. A day or so later, I come to collect my goods, only the refined load is too large to fit in my Cutty... but I can't see a way to take a partial load, either?

[MrAnderson]

Instead of developing another proprietary UI solution they should have either used ready to go or straight up use a fucking html and css as it not only it will have vastly more capabilities of flexible layout but also its extremely easy to find developers for it. Like this: https://coherent-labs.com/

That's aasuming they didn't looked into those solutions first and then decided it would be better to build their own custom one.

Could it be because it's not compatible with their engine, or because it didn't met their needs and retrofitting it to do so would be more costly.

[XDurionX]

its honestly mind boggling that this cash dump scam of a game hasnt released yet.

Once it releases people will notice how disappointing it is. They're luring in people on empty promises and "it's not done yet(tm)" is the answer to every problem.

[banmebaby]

Ah yes, a wild assumption I might add! It’s not like Chris Roberts has a hilarious record of poorly planned shit leading to huge increases on the development costs and time, even to the point of being forced to sell his own projects to other gaming companies.

I mean, from the game engine juggling to having your entire project riding on a technology that in 10 years has shown no life signs, I would say that careful planning ahead in order to void extra costs should be CiG moto.

[MrAnderson]

Someone help me understand. I mined a bunch of stuff and put in a work order at the refinery. A day or so later, I come to collect my goods, only the refined load is too large to fit in my Cutty... but I can't see a way to take a partial load, either?

I usually rent a Freelancer for like 34k credits to transport bigger ammounts of cargo.

[Cracked]

Tell me again why I should take this company/game seriously...

Star Citizen is doing 'bedsheet deformation' physics now, because of course it is

I can't imagine saying these sentences with any kind of seriousness.

Call it "immersion" all you like, it's just more busy work for devs that only 0.1% of players will give even a tiny shit about.

It sounds ridiculous as hell, but if it's 1 guy toying around to make bedsheets look real, then why not. That's how most R&D in graphics happens. But they really, really shouldn't use that as a talking point.

[Kyanion]

It sounds ridiculous as hell, but if it's 1 guy toying around to make bedsheets look real, then why not. That's how most R&D in graphics happens. But they really, really shouldn't use that as a talking point.

But do you think it is really just 1 guy with this team? Prolly a team of 20 considering how mismanaged this whole project is.

[kaminaris]

That's aasuming they didn't looked into those solutions first and then decided it would be better to build their own custom one.

Could it be because it's not compatible with their engine, or because it didn't met their needs and retrofitting it to do so would be more costly.

There are plenty of developers assuming much only to get their ass bitten by their own decisions.

Look at CDPR, spent years developing their own red engine only to be perpetually behind the curve and left to fix shit that other ready engines already fixed. And now what? They are switching to unreal.

When it comes to UI flexibility, there isn't a single solution that comes even remotely close to html+css, there just isn't.
If you need a simple hud, yes, everything works fine.
If you need ultimate flexibility - you go html+css.

Look at my signature. Then remember im just one guy, don't even have css skills as i am backend dev mostly, and then remember there is no limit to customization and no other UI will even come remotely close.

[Cracked]

But do you think it is really just 1 guy with this team? Prolly a team of 20 considering how mismanaged this whole project is.

I would hope so. I have many acquittances who worked on realistic cloth simulation during their PhDs, and a lot of them went into game studios, mostly ubisoft though actually. I'd imagine they mostly still do that alone, save for final integration.

[kenn9530]

Instead of developing another proprietary UI solution they should have either used ready to go or straight up use a fucking html and css as it not only it will have vastly more capabilities of flexible layout but also its extremely easy to find developers for it. Like this: https://coherent-labs.com/

How do you know they are not though, or how do you know its actually better for the game, all we do know is they are making whatever tools they require if and when they need them.

[banmebaby]

But SC didn't "do it". It came with the engine by default.

Cryengine used flash for UI like many other engines from that time.

It's legacy code that is being replaced by their own proprietary tech (building blocks).

Instead of developing another proprietary UI solution they should have either used ready to go or straight up use a fucking html and css as it not only it will have vastly more capabilities of flexible layout but also its extremely easy to find developers for it. Like this: https://coherent-labs.com/

How do you know they are not though, or how do you know its actually better for the game, all we do know is they are making whatever tools they require if and when they need them.

Shit dude, I was wondering the same myself...

[Cracked]

When it comes to UI flexibility, there isn't a single solution that comes even remotely close to html+css, there just isn't.
If you need a simple hud, yes, everything works fine.
If you need ultimate flexibility - you go html+css.

Look at my signature. Then remember im just one guy, don't even have css skills as i am backend dev mostly, and then remember there is no limit to customization and no other UI will even come remotely close.

Well, that depends. Being on a WoW site and all, actually, WoW has vastly superior UI engine, both for performance and flexibility. But it's home cooked, so it doesn't get updated very often and the pool of devs that can grow it is very limited to people who either used to write addons or spend a year working at Blizzard just to learn the entire framework.

And then you get a real taste of what a html + css + (presumably) web-like js UI solution is like in New World, which does not even allow high amount of customization (in the WoW addon sense, as far as I'm aware) and still managed to be a dumpsterfire of UI exploits like crashing other peoples client by sending certain HTML tags in chat. It just wasn't designed for this use case, but clearly can be bent to "work". I just don't think it's particularly suited for game HUD needs.

[kaminaris]

Well, that depends. Being on a WoW site and all, actually, WoW has vastly superior UI engine, both for performance and flexibility. But it's home cooked, so it doesn't get updated very often and the pool of devs that can grow it is very limited to people who either used to write addons or spend a year working at Blizzard just to learn the entire framework.

And then you get a real taste of what a html + css + (presumably) web-like js UI solution is like in New World, which does not even allow high amount of customization (in the WoW addon sense, as far as I'm aware) and still managed to be a dumpsterfire of UI exploits like crashing other peoples client by sending certain HTML tags in chat. It just wasn't designed for this use case, but clearly can be bent to "work". I just don't think it's particularly suited for game HUD needs.

Please, wow engine cannot even handle component destruction let alone any flexibility. Building simple component library was giga pain in the ass (yes I've build UI library), trying to work with some more complex widgets such as scrolling frames required some real mental gymnastics.

WoW UI engine is complete trash in pretty much every regard. It may be superior to some archaical ones but does not come close to anything modern.
Great example of how bad it is, was a hotfix in BfA that gave lua a hard limit of 18s execution time as it could freeze entire PC (not just game) that required hard reboot.

New world is not example of how its done, its example of how to integrate great solution with worst possible skills. Kinda like giving a $100000 chirurgical set to a monkey to do a heart transplant. Allowing html in chat is literally a rookie mistake, yes you can have a chat that DISPLAYS html, but it should not ever allow any html.

If you want some examples here are some: https://coherent-labs.com/powered-by-coherent-labs/

- - - Updated - - -

How do you know they are not though, or how do you know its actually better for the game, all we do know is they are making whatever tools they require if and when they need them.

I can tell they are not doing that just by looking at their video with their designer tools opened up:

This one:
https://i.imgur.com/UpxxcOt.jpeg

Its a straight up C++ code

And this one:
https://i.imgur.com/zeLUgT7.png

Which is some raw form of unfinished designer tool.

[Majestic12]

its honestly mind boggling that this cash dump scam of a game hasnt released yet.

Thing is, we have people in here arguing for their lives that it actually is released, because backers can play a tech demo. All the while completely ignoring the development process of actually going gold and releasing a product.

[kenn9530]

I can tell they are not doing that just by looking at their video with their designer tools opened up:

This one:
https://i.imgur.com/UpxxcOt.jpeg

Its a straight up C++ code

And this one:
https://i.imgur.com/zeLUgT7.png

Which is some raw form of unfinished designer tool.

There is no one option fits all, it could be entirely useless for the requirements of star citizen, they prefer to make thier own in house tools rather than outside sources as much as possible, if there was a better option im very sure out of the hundreds of devs working on it they would of said something by now.

[banmebaby]

Thing is, we have people in here arguing for their lives that it actually is released, because backers can play a tech demo.

That’s not completely accurate, the people arguing for their lives that its actually released, will also argue for their lives that isn’t released, it all depends on the subject of discussion.

For example:

“Chris Roberts created a company from nothing and that after 6 years of work and without the released of a single title its valued at 500 million dollars”

“the game is released (since 2014)”

“Star Citizen Alpha is clearly and officially an unfinished game in active development and not released”

“if you are in a hurry you should not put money on games in-development but on released games, your fault, deal with it.”

“Star Citizen is released though, and it's been playable since the very first prototype back in 2013.”

All from the same person, you can check Exhibit B in my signature for the entire thing.

There is no one option fits all, it could be entirely useless for the requirements of star citizen, they prefer to make thier own in house tools rather than outside sources as much as possible, if there was a better option im very sure out of the hundreds of devs working on it they would of said something by now.

This reminds me of the clown make-up meme for some reason.

[Kyanion]

Thing is, we have people in here arguing for their lives that it actually is released, because backers can play a tech demo. All the while completely ignoring the development process of actually going gold and releasing a product.

All from the same person, you can check Exhibit B in my signature for the entire thing.

You really should check Exhibit B, it is a prime example of the game changing its status based on what suits the argument for their side. It is why this discussion has been entertaining for quite a while. It is like being the defense attorney one day and then becoming the prosecutor on the SAME TRIAL the next day. The game is whatever it needs to be to suit the agenda and it will always be like that for them.

[kaminaris]

There is no one option fits all, it could be entirely useless for the requirements of star citizen, they prefer to make thier own in house tools rather than outside sources as much as possible, if there was a better option im very sure out of the hundreds of devs working on it they would of said something by now.

Writing something so complex such as flexible UI is literally shooting yourself in foot. The same shit when multiple companies tried to do their version of web renderer and guess what? Hundreds of microsoft devs said, screw it, it was a mistake (Edge abandoned their shit and moved to chromium). Now only two remains, chromium and firefox.

Yes, no size fits it all, trying to reinvent the wheel only to end up with bootleg hexagon years after is not a solution. For simple shit its viable, for advanced layouts - nope.

I originally intended to write a lengthy post about it but screw it: There is no way i hell you can create flexible and complex UI engine without pouring millions of dollars - and that still won't be as good as literally embedding CEF into game. And it won't even be close performance wise.

[kenn9530]

Writing something so complex such as flexible UI is literally shooting yourself in foot. The same shit when multiple companies tried to do their version of web renderer and guess what? Hundreds of microsoft devs said, screw it, it was a mistake (Edge abandoned their shit and moved to chromium). Now only two remains, chromium and firefox.

Yes, no size fits it all, trying to reinvent the wheel only to end up with bootleg hexagon years after is not a solution. For simple shit its viable, for advanced layouts - nope.

I originally intended to write a lengthy post about it but screw it: There is no way i hell you can create flexible and complex UI engine without pouring millions of dollars - and that still won't be as good as literally embedding CEF into game. And it won't even be close performance wise.

We dont know what they are actually doing with the UI system in the game, they are currrently doing it the best way possible for what the game actually requires, you are essentially just guessing they are not using a system you think is better, and dont actually know what is actually suitable for the game they are making.

[Edge-]

they are currrently doing it the best way possible for what the game actually requires

You always say this but never actually say why. Just because they're working on the game doesn't mean every idea they have is "good".

And given all the persistent troubles throughout development including long delays and missed deadlines/projections, I think we can safely say that CIG is making plenty of mistakes during development. And there's no reason to think this isn't one of them.