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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    What's a set schedule? What is "randomly"? These don't mean anything unless defined. Your definition is worse than useless. It is in invitation to confusion and equivocation.
    All of these things have actual definitions you can Google lol.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    I have no doubt of that, especially since it agrees with what I said as an answer to your question: Most people don't do Mythic dungeons or raid (even LFR). Also, most people don't pet battle. There are lots of things most people don't do. You asked about two of them, and I answered that question.

    Also, the game doesn't funnel players into LFR and pet battles. It's designed to push everyone into organized raiding/dungeons/pvp. If LFR and pet battles were the intended endgame of the developers then your point may have had some merit in saying that LFR and pet battles should not be prioritized because most people aren't doing them. But they're not prioritized by the design.
    Oh well my original question was in regards to ninespine talking about queued vs manually formed groups and for manually formed he instantly jumped past +2s and normals all the way to clearing +15s and heroic raids

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    All of these things have actual definitions you can Google lol.
    Is it a set schedule if I log in every day when I wake up to do world quests for an hour? Yes. Is that what you mean? No.

    So, can we please move on from this obnoxious semantic bullshit already? Your definition is patently silly. It says that the person with a set schedule who just does two hours of world quests every week is not casual, but the person with a non-set schedule who plays randomly but does +20s and pugs heroic raids is casual.

    But let me guess, you have "different definitions" of set schedule and randomly and now here we go with the caveats and rules and now the definition becomes less and less meaningful as you keep having to pile garbage onto it to make it useful.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Is it a set schedule if I log in every day when I wake up to do world quests for an hour? Yes. Is that what you mean? No.

    So, can we please move on from this obnoxious semantic bullshit already? Your definition is patently silly. It says that the person with a set schedule who just does two hours of world quests every week is not casual, but the person with a non-set schedule who plays randomly but does +20s and pugs heroic raids is casual.

    But let me guess, you have "different definitions" of set schedule and randomly and now here we go with the caveats and rules and now the definition becomes less and less meaningful as you keep having to pile garbage onto it to make it useful.
    No, by my definition you are correct. The person who schedules their activities for a set time of day each week is not casual. They are literally planning their life around a game. The person that is sitting on their coach and thinks to himself "hey, ima go play some wow" is the casual.

    Its not "bullshit" just because your own personal definition doesn't match it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll help you out since you don't seem to understand basic definitions. These are from Google.

    Schedule - a plan for carrying out a process or procedure, giving lists of intended events and times.

    Random - made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.

    Casual - a person who does something irregularly.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    No, by my definition you are correct. The person who schedules their activities for a set time of day each week is not casual. They are literally planning their life around a game. The person that is sitting on their coach and thinks to himself "hey, ima go play some wow" is the casual.

    Its not "bullshit" just because your own personal definition doesn't match it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll help you out since you don't seem to understand basic definitions. These are from Google.

    Schedule - a plan for carrying out a process or procedure, giving lists of intended events and times.

    Random - made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.

    Casual - a person who does something irregularly.
    Why do people always look up literal definitions when discussing internet or video game lingo. If you ask 99% of the WoW communities definition for the word casual it would more than likely always fall under the amount played or it would fall under the skill level or the difficulty someone is playing the game at.

    If someone randomly chooses when to play wow but plays it for a couple hours and pushes the game to its limits and reaches rank one levels of pvp or finishes pve content to its full extent, that’s not a casual gamer just because he randomly decided to start playing.

    On the flip side someone can play the game hours on end, schedules their play time and just sits in Goldshire and rps all day and that person is still a casual.

    Then there’s always the middle ground where you could argue if there is a certain balance of time played/how hard they are going in the game to decide if they would fall under casual or not.

    Just because someone “planned” their game time of 10 minutes of playing the game every week doesn’t mean they are no longer a casual.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Royru View Post
    Why do people always look up literal definitions when discussing internet or video game lingo. If you ask 99% of the WoW communities definition for the word casual it would more than likely always fall under the amount played or it would fall under the skill level or the difficulty someone is playing the game at.

    If someone randomly chooses when to play wow but plays it for a couple hours and pushes the game to its limits and reaches rank one levels of pvp or finishes pve content to its full extent, that’s not a casual gamer just because he randomly decided to start playing.

    On the flip side someone can play the game hours on end, schedules their play time and just sits in Goldshire and rps all day and that person is still a casual.

    Then there’s always the middle ground where you could argue if there is a certain balance of time played/how hard they are going in the game to decide if they would fall under casual or not.

    Just because someone “planned” their game time of 10 minutes of playing the game every week doesn’t mean they are no longer a casual.
    Tbf the definitions he was initially saying he didn't know were "scheduled" and "random" which are universal definitions and are exactly the same in and out of wow.

    The casual definition is the literal one and it has much more backing it up than his claim of "I pulled some numbers kinda sorta from a guy who looked at the API and claimed half the ppl don't do m+ therefore the definition of casual is related to whether or not u can queue for it"
    Last edited by ellieg; 2022-05-09 at 08:06 PM.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    It's now made for shareholders, and to milk the players too stubborn to take the hint and quit.
    God forbid anybody on a fucking video game forum have the audacity to enjoy a video game the way it is. No, they're just hopeless addicts who need the guidance of sagely enlightened cynics like yourself who possess the unique ability to see everything from the angle that regardless of what Blizzard does or doesn't do with the game, they're doing it because fuck you.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Tbf the definitions he was initially saying he didn't know were "scheduled" and "random" which are universal definitions and are exactly the same in and out of wow.

    The casual definition is the literal one and it has much more backing it up than his claim of "I pulled some numbers kinda sorta from a guy who looked at the API and claimed half the ppl don't do m+ therefore the definition of casual is related to whether or not u can queue for it"
    Again, you’re in the literal definition mindspace which is always a dumb thing to do tbh.

    He asked you “what does set schedule mean and what does random mean” because even though they have literal definitions (like you posted ignorantly) they can still mean completely different things.

    “I’m going to play once a year on the July 1st of every year”

    “I’m going to play once a month”

    “I’m going to play on the first week of every month”

    “I’m going to play once a day for 30 minutes”

    “I’m going to play on Thursday once a week”

    “I’m going to play on Thursday after work”

    “I’m going to play on Thursday at exactly 5:30pm until 7pm”

    Those are drastically different “set schedules” and they mean completely different scenarios. So when he asked what does set schedule mean he wasn’t asking you for a literal definition.

    Same thing with random.

    What’s random gaming to you?

    If someone literally has no job at all but doesn’t necessarily ‘plan’ on playing wow all day every day but ends up doing so because that’s what’s fun to them at that time then he must be a random time frame gamer?

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Tbf the definitions he was initially saying he didn't know were "scheduled" and "random" which are universal definitions and are exactly the same in and out of wow.

    The casual definition is the literal one and it has much more backing it up than his claim of "I pulled some numbers kinda sorta from a guy who looked at the API and claimed half the ppl don't do m+ therefore the definition of casual is related to whether or not u can queue for it"
    Your definition is meaningless. It's ass backwards. The person with little time, who schedules their game time, but plays only two hours a week doing world quests and alt leveling is NOT CASUAL according to you. Meanwhile, you would call a guy who plays 50 hours per week pugging hardcore content "casual". It's ludicrous. With your definition, the term has absolutely no utility whatsoever. My definition describes two distinct sets of people with different playstyles and interests. Yours does not. You would say that the dad who has to schedule his two hours of weekly playtime and the hardcore mythic progression raider are both in the same category. What value is that distinction?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    What value is that distinction?
    It lets Mythic raiders pretend that they are the true casuals of the game. Not like those sweaty neckbeard hardcore herb farmers.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Your definition is meaningless. It's ass backwards. The person with little time, who schedules their game time, but plays only two hours a week doing world quests and alt leveling is NOT CASUAL according to you. Meanwhile, you would call a guy who plays 50 hours per week pugging hardcore content "casual". It's ludicrous. With your definition, the term has absolutely no utility whatsoever. My definition describes two distinct sets of people with different playstyles and interests. Yours does not. You would say that the dad who has to schedule his two hours of weekly playtime and the hardcore mythic progression raider are both in the same category. What value is that distinction?
    And your definition is just as ass backwards. The dude playing 10 hours a day grinding out timewalkimg badges and farming the mount is casual. The guy that knows how to open up a group finder, selects the +2, and gets invited, is now automatically not casual.

    Type of content you do doesn't matter. How you approach it and the time you put into it does. There are mythic raiders right now that are more casual than people that only do queued content. Not all, not most, but some.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    It lets Mythic raiders pretend that they are the true casuals of the game. Not like those sweaty neckbeard hardcore herb farmers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    There are mythic raiders right now that are more casual than people that only do queued content.
    Told ya

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Told ya
    I'm not wrong. Im also not a mythic raider.

    And let me be clear, im not talking abt dudes getting CE. Im talking abt dudes that might kill 1st or 2nd boss.

    And people also forget abt former hardcores. Ppl that used to go hard, have all the skills and contacts, but due to real life just dont commit like that anymore.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    And your definition is just as ass backwards. The dude playing 10 hours a day grinding out timewalkimg badges and farming the mount is casual. The guy that knows how to open up a group finder, selects the +2, and gets invited, is now automatically not casual.

    Type of content you do doesn't matter. How you approach it and the time you put into it does. There are mythic raiders right now that are more casual than people that only do queued content. Not all, not most, but some.
    There is a reason that in showing why your definition is bad I appeal to completely normal types of play, and you have to invent crazy shit like fictional people who play ten hours per day running time walking dungeons but never set foot in M+2, or appealing to pacifist herb farming as the knock-down example that renders the definition useless as though there are 100,000 players doing pacifist herb farming leveling.

    This is exactly why your designation is meaningless. It is just you deciding who is or is not casual first and then painting the definition around them to fit whatever argument you are making at the moment. Everyone in each of my categories has things in common. They have playstyles and interests in common. Nobody in your categories has any of that. It would be like inventing a definition of "engineer' that excludes people who make software but includes people who build hamburgers at a fast food restaurant. What use is that category? There is no use. You just want to play definition games because being difficult on a forum is your hobby.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    There is a reason that in showing why your definition is bad I appeal to completely normal types of play, and you have to invent crazy shit like fictional people who play ten hours per day running time walking dungeons but never set foot in M+2, or appealing to pacifist herb farming as the knock-down example that renders the definition useless as though there are 100,000 players doing pacifist herb farming leveling.

    This is exactly why your designation is meaningless. It is just you deciding who is or is not casual first and then painting the definition around them to fit whatever argument you are making at the moment. Everyone in each of my categories has things in common. They have playstyles and interests in common. Nobody in your categories has any of that. It would be like inventing a definition of "engineer' that excludes people who make software but includes people who build hamburgers at a fast food restaurant. What use is that category? There is no use. You just want to play definition games because being difficult on a forum is your hobby.
    Oh the completely normal guy that schedules to do 1 world quest at the same time everyday and thats it? Your examples are the same level of absurdness but you can't admit it.

    I admit my definition is just as subjective as yours. You cannot admit that and thats why its entertaining to watch you do the exact things you accuse me of.

    Oh we gonna ignore custodial engineers? Or pretend all engineers are similar? We are talking abt a level of commitment, not job titles.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    None of the people I've played WoW with and become friends with has done a Mythic dungeon at all since Legion, when we only tried them because they were the new thing.

    Of all those people, I'm the only one still left ever logging in and that's only because after a month or two I miss WoW enough to pop a subscription, play for a day or two, then go back to not playing for a few months.
    Is there a reason to believe that such players could be converted into valuable customers without exhausting resources that would lose other customers?

    No one ever talks about second order or third order effects with resource distribution. But there's a real risk in investing resources to chase one group will frustrate groups that are already giving you money and 6 month subs.

    Also, you guys are retreating the signature post again! We have definitions for this
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Casual mythic raider is an oxymoron. The belief that you can complete the hardest content in the game and call yourself a casual is deluded. Content that also requires scheduling, organization, performance (above and beyond the bell curve), and investment far beyond the norm.
    The issue with words like casual is that they are taken away from their original meaning.

    I'm considering myself a casual as I only play twice a week. I still manage to do MM+20 and heroic raids.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Oh the completely normal guy that schedules to do 1 world quest at the same time everyday and thats it? Your examples are the same level of absurdness but you can't admit it.

    I admit my definition is just as subjective as yours. You cannot admit that and thats why its entertaining to watch you do the exact things you accuse me of.

    Oh we gonna ignore custodial engineers? Or pretend all engineers are similar? We are talking abt a level of commitment, not job titles.
    It is absolutely normal for busy people to schedule their game time, especially if they have kids. The fact that you don't realize how normal this is speaks to how out of touch you are. Most of my friends have limited game time and it has to be scheduled these days. Your definition is literally that the 18 year old who lives in the game while in his parents basement is CASUAL and the 40 year old dad with a tight schedule who just has time to run a few world quests and do some leveling (which is multiple friends of mine) is NOT CASUAL. It's a ludicrous distinction that has no value whatsoever.

    My definition has a hard line in it. Yours has squishy crap like "random" and "set schedule". Does it mean logging in is never scheduled? If they schedule one raid night per week, is it not random anymore? If they say to someone "Oh tomorrow I'll have some time to play" is that a schedule now? Is it still scheduled if they don't give a specific time? What if they say "In the afternoon"? Is it just within the day? Is saying "I can find 4 hours per week to play" scheduled even if the login times are all over? Is it random if they only play at nights? Do they have to sometimes log in in the mornings for it to be random? What spread of hours is "random"?

    There are no answers to these questions. Your definition is absolutely meaningless. Every definition is going to have exceptions and grey areas, but your definition is entirely exception in grey area. Almost everyone schedules things SOMETIMES. Almost everyone has SOME VARIANCE in when they log in. Where do those things become "set schedule" and "random"? There is no answer, because your goal is to decide who is or is not casual FIRST and then paint the definition around them after the fact. It's arrogant, self serving horseshit.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Is there a reason to believe that such players could be converted into valuable customers without exhausting resources that would lose other customers?

    No one ever talks about second order or third order effects with resource distribution. But there's a real risk in investing resources to chase one group will frustrate groups that are already giving you money and 6 month subs.
    My friends and I started playing in beta and have been subbed near-constantly since then, with only small breaks of a few weeks here and there. I have nearly every store mount, many of the store pets, I signed up for the Annual Pass and stayed subbed the whole time. So did my friends.

    What we were "converted" to was from the valuable customers to former players. So you've kind of got things backward there.

    Since beta resources have been diverted INTO raids, not away from them. LFR was created for the express purpose of propping up raid participation to keep it at the level it was and even expanded. Resources have consistently been invested into organized content and the game has steadily dripped players away ever since the initial cultural bounce. Even when the game was expanding its playerbase it was losing countless players and, eventually, new people slowly stopped coming to the game as it was no longer a cultural thing that people had not experienced.

    Organized players are the group that's being chased, as you put it. And the game continues to lose players and goodwill. Expansions sell well because many want to come back and relive what they once had, only to leave nearly immediately as they realize it's still a game made by the 1% for the 1%.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    My friends and I started playing in beta and have been subbed near-constantly since then, with only small breaks of a few weeks here and there. I have nearly every store mount, many of the store pets, I signed up for the Annual Pass and stayed subbed the whole time. So did my friends.

    What we were "converted" to was from the valuable customers to former players. So you've kind of got things backward there.

    Since beta resources have been diverted INTO raids, not away from them. LFR was created for the express purpose of propping up raid participation to keep it at the level it was and even expanded. Resources have consistently been invested into organized content and the game has steadily dripped players away ever since the initial cultural bounce. Even when the game was expanding its playerbase it was losing countless players and, eventually, new people slowly stopped coming to the game as it was no longer a cultural thing that people had not experienced.

    Organized players are the group that's being chased, as you put it. And the game continues to lose players and goodwill. Expansions sell well because many want to come back and relive what they once had, only to leave nearly immediately as they realize it's still a game made by the 1% for the 1%.
    This isn't what I asked.

    It's also a lot of conjecture and subjective opinion. The last three expansions (basically the modern game) have had an enormous amount of resources directed into non-raid content. Covenant halls, quests, the maw, torghast, korthia, ZM.

    Not liking them is one thing. I personally think like 90% of that stuff is garbage. But they all took a ton of resources and it's not clear they added or kept many customers.

    So the actual question, again: is there a reason to believe that players in your position (or your friends) can be converted into valuable customers again without exhausting resources that would lose other customers?

    There's some combination of
    -fickle
    -old
    -fleeting
    -bitter

    That is going to make some customers not worth chasing anymore, the same way as any other product.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    This isn't what I asked.

    It's also a lot of conjecture and subjective opinion. The last three expansions (basically the modern game) have had an enormous amount of resources directed into non-raid content. Covenant halls, quests, the maw, torghast, korthia, ZM.

    Not liking them is one thing. I personally think like 90% of that stuff is garbage. But they all took a ton of resources and it's not clear they added or kept many customers.

    So the actual question, again: is there a reason to believe that players in your position (or your friends) can be converted into valuable customers again without exhausting resources that would lose other customers?

    There's some combination of
    -fickle
    -old
    -fleeting
    -bitter

    That is going to make some customers not worth chasing anymore, the same way as any other product.
    The answer to this question will be steeped in the nostalgia of whatever random version of WoW that the person you're asking has in their mind as the "best" version. And since there are now 9 expansions worth of answers to this question, it's really a pointless thing to ask. We shouldn't be asking what random forum residents feel is the best version of the game. We should be asking the currently paying customers what would keep them as paying customers. And more importantly, what would entice new customers to try out the game. I'd like to think that's, for the most part, how the game's developers approach the way they design things (small incremental changes for patches; larger philosophy changes for expansions)... but then you get into online discussion forums where people like to pretend that WoW would have 100 billion subscribers and nobody would have ever quit the game if only they had kept the design just like it was in whatever idealized version of WoW they have in their minds.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-05-09 at 10:12 PM.

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