10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[KrayZ33]

Because it cheapens the experience for everyone. Why bother running keys if one can get better gear from XYZ content, the gear treadmill stops at some point for everyone. But people tend to take the path of least resistance, and that probably waiting on lust for every hard boss/pack and spending an inordonate amount of time running the proposed time-free M+ that the OP was proposing. I truly believe that it's a case of "you think this is a good idea, but it's not". It doesn't remove the requirement to form a group unless you want queuable M-, which further widens the divide between the good players and the bads (and by bad I mean, someone who doesn't know/care what their spells do and is just having fun but is unfortunatly dragging the other 4 people down). I mean look at LFR, mechanics are non existent, and still people manage to wipe on it, do less DPS that I did in season 1 despite being 250+ilvl. It's plain silly.

If you don't play M+ for the sake of M+... why wouldn't you want to get your gear from a place you enjoy?
Wouldn't you rather do XYZ content if you think that's "better", "faster" or more rewarding to you and your game sessions?

I don't see how it would "cheapen" my experience when only people who want to enjoy M+ run M+.
Wouldn't it enhance it because I have people "pushing" keys with me?
Or people who run M+ because they feel like it's fun to do M+/more difficult dungeons?

Pretty sure I'd enjoy playing soccer with people who enjoy playing soccer more than with people who only do it because "you have to run and it helps them burn calories". No matter if they are bad or good in it as well.

[Azharok]

If you don't play M+ for the sake of M+... why wouldn't you want to get your gear from a place you enjoy?
Wouldn't you rather do XYZ content if you think that's "better", "faster" or more rewarding to you and your game sessions?

I don't see how it would "cheapen" my experience when only people who want to enjoy M+ run M+.
Wouldn't it enhance it because I have people "pushing" keys with me?
Or people who run M+ because they feel like it's fun to do M+/more difficult dungeons?

Pretty sure I'd enjoy playing soccer with people who enjoy playing soccer more than with people who only do it because "you have to run and it helps them burn calories". No matter if they are bad or good in it as well.

I'd just keep running keys, cauz it's faster than my hypothetical 2 hour dungeon because "timmy" can't play the boss mechanics. I mean we're practically spoon-fed gear already as it is and it's still not enough for some people.

I'd be fine with a TR system for M+ with normalised gear, and just push keys. A small part of acquiring the gear is still fun.

[KrayZ33]

I'd just keep running keys, cauz it's faster than my hypothetical 2 hour dungeon because "timmy" can't play the boss mechanics. I mean we're practically spoon-fed gear already as it is and it's still not enough for some people.

I'd be fine with a TR system for M+ with normalised gear, and just push keys. A small part of acquiring the gear is still fun.

Oh I agree.
Maybe I misunderstood the context, but it sounded like you'd be against people getting gear due to them diluting the playerbase or your rewards not feeling as impactful.

If they get 270 gear from content elsewhere, they won't bother your M+ runs by being "bad", that was my point, basically.
They would have already gotten the reward they are out for, at least a big part of them. And while some players remain "bad", but they would be more... "motivated"

[chiddie]

Because it cheapens the experience for everyone. Why bother running keys if one can get better gear from XYZ content, the gear treadmill stops at some point for everyone. But people tend to take the path of least resistance, and that probably waiting on lust for every hard boss/pack and spending an inordonate amount of time running the proposed time-free M+ that the OP was proposing. I truly believe that it's a case of "you think this is a good idea, but it's not". It doesn't remove the requirement to form a group unless you want queuable M-, which further widens the divide between the good players and the bads (and by bad I mean, someone who doesn't know/care what their spells do and is just having fun but is unfortunatly dragging the other 4 people down). I mean look at LFR, mechanics are non existent, and still people manage to wipe on it, do less DPS that I did in season 1 despite being 250+ilvl. It's plain silly.

Why would it cheap the experience for everyone? As I said I won’t join M+ even with mythic raid gear level. I simply don’t like them, I won’t like them more if I would have better gear, why should I?

You can tell me that you’d like more if better gear comes from difficult content but this is another story. I still don’t see how giving high level gear outside M+ would impact M+ players. A player not joining a content is a “non existing player” for that content regardless his ilvl.

[Azharok]

Why would it cheap the experience for everyone? As I said I won’t join M+ even with mythic raid gear level. I simply don’t like them, I won’t like them more if I would have better gear, why should I?

You can tell me that you’d like more if better gear comes from difficult content but this is another story. I still don’t see how giving high level gear outside M+ would impact M+ players. A player not joining a content is a “non existing player” for that content regardless his ilvl.

It wouldn't cheapen the experience for you since you don't participate. You don't have a dog in this fight so why are you chiming in on the removal of the timer. Would you participate if it was removed ? Would it need to be queuable ? Would you spend 2 hours clearing a dungeon with people not avoiding mechanics when it could be done in 30 minutes or less ?

Giving high ilvl gear impacts everyone tbh, IF it is more easily obtained than running the current systems we have.

May I ask what content do you participate in ?

- - - Updated - - -

Oh I agree.
Maybe I misunderstood the context, but it sounded like you'd be against people getting gear due to them diluting the playerbase or your rewards not feeling as impactful.

If they get 270 gear from content elsewhere, they won't bother your M+ runs by being "bad", that was my point, basically.
They would have already gotten the reward they are out for, at least a big part of them. And while some players remain "bad", but they would be more... "motivated"

It's not that I care that my gear is worth "less" or "more" than others. I couldn't care less about mythic raiders and their 285 ilvl gear. We don't operate in the same systems.

I still think it would hurt "genuine" key runners running lower keys who would get innondated by overgeared unscored players.

[potis]

Why would it cheap the experience for everyone? As I said I won’t join M+ even with mythic raid gear level. I simply don’t like them, I won’t like them more if I would have better gear, why should I?

Cause thats you, you dont represent the majority.

Everytime the freebie gear was handed out quicker or more freely, mostly noticeable at end patches and pre-expansion cause it takes 9-14 months and even the average player catches up, the instance content turned into an even bigger shitshow than it was.

Because people dont understand its not the gear you need to do most of the relevant content, you just have to be able to play the game, which they dont do correctly, no matter how much gear you give them.

Yeah maybe you wont do it, but a very large % of people like you that want to "Give it a try", because going from 250 to 270 is the problem they cant complete their +10, right?

Its the same logic as the start of an expansion, you have the average player that doesnt know the game correctly, taking weeks to go through normal dungeons, heroic dungeons and all the irrelevant content,or you can have friends, be semi-decent and press your interrupt, and clear the M0 dungeons with 50 item levels less, and skip all that pointless things.

[Mendo Kusai]

It wouldn't cheapen the experience for you since you don't participate. You don't have a dog in this fight so why are you chiming in on the removal of the timer. Would you participate if it was removed ? Would it need to be queuable ? Would you spend 2 hours clearing a dungeon with people not avoiding mechanics when it could be done in 30 minutes or less ?

I don't know about the other guy, but it would bring me back to m+ and I know many others as well.
The question is, why is anyone against having a non timed version, we can already do a 15 in 5h and get mythic raid level gear and lets face it, no one cared about that.
Having an official version would simply make things healthier as players who dont care about timer could now play together and players who want timer can play with each other.

[csguba]

I think it would probably be the single biggest death knell to the game to nerf the most popular pve activity by a wide margin.

At this point most people who want to raid find a way to raid. It's very self-selected since it requires a lot of effort to guild shop/app. People have to want to do that (and a lot of people do!)

People who don't want to raid never will, though, and if you kill the fun they've enjoyed for 6 years now, they'll just quit.

I think that's a bit extreme, I'm not saying to remove m+ but rather just adjust the loot item level rewards. It may be the most popular pve activity but a reasonably high portion of that activity will be by people like myself who almost feel we have to do it because the rewards are so powerful for relatively a lot less difficulty but not actually particularly wanting to do it. In it's current form it's impossible to ignore at the start of any new raid content because it's so powerful. But yeah I do realise that will be unpopular.

[Lathspell]

I think that's a bit extreme, I'm not saying to remove m+ but rather just adjust the loot item level rewards. It may be the most popular pve activity but a reasonably high portion of that activity will be by people like myself who almost feel we have to do it because the rewards are so powerful for relatively a lot less difficulty but not actually particularly wanting to do it. In it's current form it's impossible to ignore at the start of any new raid content because it's so powerful. But yeah I do realise that will be unpopular.

It is completely possible to ignore M+ gear at the start of a tier. You just won't have that gear, but instead gear up through HC raiding. Pretty sure any mythic boss can be killed with heroic loot only. It won't be optimal but it is not impossible. Many M+ players ignore raiding even though there are some superior items there. The solution is not nerfing one source of loot because some people think it's mandatory to do.

[Alroxas]

Having an official version would simply make things healthier as players who dont care about timer could now play together and players who want timer can play with each other.

Why then do we need an "official" version? Just put in the group finder that you're only after "completion" and re-check with all your party members prior to starting the run that you want to complete the dungeon regardless of time.

This way if a player is NOT onboard with the objective of just completing, they can leave group BEFORE you start.

[Mendo Kusai]

Why then do we need an "official" version? Just put in the group finder that you're only after "completion" and re-check with all your party members prior to starting the run that you want to complete the dungeon regardless of time.

This way if a player is NOT onboard with the objective of just completing, they can leave group BEFORE you start.

Great so you indeed don't mind, the reason I want an official version is because currently it is unintuitive and people mostly go for the timer as a baseline even when they don't care because thats just the way m+ is settup. As I said an official version would simply be better and people would play with other people of similar mindset. It would also bring more people into the m+ world and give them a chance to experience and enjoy m+ without the all the stress.

[Twdft]

Great so you indeed don't mind, the reason I want an official version is because currently it is unintuitive and people mostly go for the timer as a baseline even when they don't care because thats just the way m+ is settup. As I said an official version would simply be better and people would play with other people of similar mindset. It would also bring more people into the m+ world and give them a chance to experience and enjoy m+ without the all the stress.

This is the official version. If people mostly go for the timer than maybe, just maybe, it is because most people actually think the timer is fine and simply how mythic+ works.

There are indeed groups listed that don't care about the timer, eg end of week vault runs marked "completion". Or groups wanting to push their key "beat timer". It's a user problem if people aren't able to read what they sign up for.

[csguba]

It is completely possible to ignore M+ gear at the start of a tier. You just won't have that gear, but instead gear up through HC raiding. Pretty sure any mythic boss can be killed with heroic loot only. It won't be optimal but it is not impossible. Many M+ players ignore raiding even though there are some superior items there. The solution is not nerfing one source of loot because some people think it's mandatory to do.

Yeah, this is just incorrect I'm afraid. My guild literally has requirement to do 4 mythic dungeons a week (probably I guess will be removed soon though). If a guild is intending on progressing/clearing mythic there is no way you'll be allowed to skip out on the content that gives you the highest item level for little difficulty, particularly while first clearing heroic with 13 item level lower rewards. This would be to the complete detriment of your raid team. You're right in theory but not in reality.

I get your point about not nerfing loot because of a minority feeling it's mandatory and yeah that's a reason among many why it won't happen. But it is in my mind absurdly too powerful and no way close to being in line with raiding/pvp difficulty.

[Lochton]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

Doesn't that remove some of the main existence reasons of Mythic+? If you don't want timers, run a 0, or ignore the timer and live with it? I mean, the challenge part of M+ is that it is timed as well?

[Alroxas]

Yeah, this is just incorrect I'm afraid. My guild literally has requirement to do 4 mythic dungeons a week

Maybe that isn't the right guild fit for you then?

If a guild is intending on progressing/clearing mythic there is no way you'll be allowed to skip out on the content that gives you the highest item level for little difficulty, particularly while first clearing heroic with 13 item level lower rewards.

Depends on the guild, I've seen some with draconian requirements and I've seen some where they have a very relaxed requirements. And yes, these are the same guilds that do Mythic progression.

Shit, there are even guild that do 1 night mythic progression per week and still make progress over guilds that spend multiple days per week.

[Bee76]

I would just love healing if there was a M+ LFD without caring about timers and loot, but I’m a white fly.

.

Uhm sorry but there is the option to play M+ without a timer. You even recieve loot at the end of the dungeon and from thr great frustration...i mean great vault

ll you need is 4 friends or random ppl with the same mindset and 1 key. And you get this key by doing a timerless mo dungeon. and you will recieve a key every week then.
sorry but this whole point "remove timer from m+" already exist. And in my opnion if people wanna play higher keys without timer, they mean "gimme gear in a 3 hours cc and slogfest with out any further effort".and even that already exist, all you need is the effort to organize a key for that.

[Mendo Kusai]

This is the official version. If people mostly go for the timer than maybe, just maybe, it is because most people actually think the timer is fine and simply how mythic+ works.

There are indeed groups listed that don't care about the timer, eg end of week vault runs marked "completion". Or groups wanting to push their key "beat timer". It's a user problem if people aren't able to read what they sign up for.

Just because there is a scuffed version doesnt mean the game wouldnt benefit from having a better version.
People go for timer cause the timer will be there and put pressure on you anyway, even if you dont want to play with it, so if there is a group that runs a key that you are interested in, youll tag for it regardless.
And blizz seems to be aware of the problems and are slowly implementing solutions, from the removal of 3 chest loot system, to changing to -1 loot at the end to simply -ilvl to these new options.
At the end of the day m+ comes from challenge mode which was bonus content, but m+ as become a full proper form of progression content that everyone is encouraged to do on a daily basis. M+ with timer is perfect as bonus content that gives bonus rewards, but when it comes to everyday gearing, a thing that most players are interested in, it just doesnt need the timer.

[ifrah]

I'm curious to know, what else should be done for m+ besides the timer removal? In their current state, without timer, you'd have few dozen completely pointless trash pulls, and 3 to 4 bosses. That's like.. a raid, but with 5 instead of 10...25 ppl in your group?

[KrayZ33]

Just because there is a scuffed version doesnt mean the game wouldnt benefit from having a better version.
People go for timer cause the timer will be there and put pressure on you anyway, even if you dont want to play with it, so if there is a group that runs a key that you are interested in, youll tag for it regardless.
And blizz seems to be aware of the problems and are slowly implementing solutions, from the removal of 3 chest loot system, to changing to -1 loot at the end to simply -ilvl to these new options.

I can't follow.
How is the timer putting pressure on you if you don't want to play with it? (which means you are only in for the vault item)
And how exactly are the changes related to what you just said?

[mojusk]

Nah, timer is fine. But the key shouldnt go from +1 to - 1 if you barely miss the timer. Instead it should get -1 when you miss the timer with what is equal to +2.
-2 if you miss it with equal to +3 or give up.