Group Finder for WOTLK is a great tool, why the hate?.

[Marxman]

TBC gives a free level boost to 60

No, it doesn't. The base subscription is all you need for TBC. The $60-70 deluxe BS edition gives you a "free" (lol) 58 boost. It's not free.

Also as someone who started playing TBC recently after skipping P2-6 of Vanilla and P1-3 of TBC, I can vouch firsthand that there are tons of people leveling and prepping for WotLK right now who have/had zero interest in Vanilla/TBC, because Vanilla/TBC are *vastly* different games than WotLK. That's why it's so absolutely silly that the Vanilla/TBC crowd are trying to "preserve the spirit of Classic", considering the Classic era and philosophy ended with the launch of WotLK. WotLK is not a "Classic era expansion". It's not "old school". It's just as similar to MoP/WoD as it is to TBC, honestly.

[NineSpine]

The reality is the features of patch 3.3.0 were in the game for 12 months out of Wrath's 25 month lifespan. I get that measuring an expansion by its patches helps to artificially minimise the extent to which the features of a later patch are used, but for those of us who still use the traditional method of measuring the passing of time, almost half of Wrath was spent enjoying the convenience of the dungeon finder.

And that's not how classic works so it is is irrelevant. The ICC phase will be the last or second to last phase.

I'll repeat myself: Classic servers don't emulate patch length.

See, the problem here is you have a catch 22:

You can admit that it wasn't added until one of the last patches, which means it shouldn't be added until the end of Classic Wrath, rendering your argument pointless.
OR
You can demand LFD be introduced earlier than it was in the actual expansion which undermines your case that Wrath should be like Wrath was.

There is no win here for you.

- - - Updated - - -

No, it doesn't. The base subscription is all you need for TBC. The $60-70 deluxe BS edition gives you a "free" (lol) 58 boost. It's not free.

Also as someone who started playing TBC recently after skipping P2-6 of Vanilla and P1-3 of TBC, I can vouch firsthand that there are tons of people leveling and prepping for WotLK right now who have/had zero interest in Vanilla/TBC, because Vanilla/TBC are *vastly* different games than WotLK. That's why it's so absolutely silly that the Vanilla/TBC crowd are trying to "preserve the spirit of Classic", considering the Classic era and philosophy ended with the launch of WotLK. WotLK is not a "Classic era expansion". It's not "old school". It's just as similar to MoP/WoD as it is to TBC, honestly.

Wrath is exactly like TBC until ICC. The game model is virtually identical.

[korijenkins]

LFD did not destroy the social aspect of WoW, ppl who dont want to be social will do the bare min anyway and noone cares about dungeons you can mostly face roll through, only the ICC dungeons were a little harder for the average player.

No LFD means most players would just quit and you will have only your dedicated fans who like the expansion, ppl dont want to waste time finding groups its boring and a complete waste of time.

I dont really pug because i cba and usually only play with friends, guilds are there for you to be social not spamming looking for ppl to do an easy dungeon.

I believe wrath was one of the most social expansions available, i knew ppl from many guilds on the server and mostly just played with guildies or players in the top guilds.

It absolutely did. When you were restricted to finding groups manually, you had to be nicer and actually get to know people. LFG just made group content very quiet and boring. Server communities died the more they tried to go cross-realm.

And yes, there's the argument that "some servers were so dead they had no communities" which honestly feels like it would've been solved if Blizzard cared to solve it. They took the easy approach by just allowing you to queue for everything, and the game bled to death.

[Kalisandra]

,,If you want this Wotlk feature in Wotlk Classic just go play retail lol,, . Suuure...makes a lot of sense. Maybe they should remove dual spec , achievements and multiple raid difficulties too because you can always play retail if you don't like it right?

Nah. Id rather play my favorite expansion again exactly as it was back then. And for the record...I have plenty of time to game. I just prefer not to waste it staring at chat and spamming ,,LFM,, and ,,inv,, just so I can do trivial content like Wotlk heroics for badges.

The automatic cross-realm LFG system arrived late in Wrath's life, so you shouldn't see it until the last patch content anyway.

[Unholyground]

If they want to make people happy they need LFG servers as well. Just have both options.

[QwertySham]

A huge part of what made wotlk so successful was the dungeon finder. It should and needs to stay in the game. LFR was a huge mistake and I think a lot of people don't separate the two.

[Marxman]

Wrath is exactly like TBC until ICC. The game model is virtually identical.

Except all the catch-up gear, the dungeon design, the raid design, the class design, the leveling design, and later on the dungeon finder and accessibility features.

Yeah, exactly the same. /s

If you believe they are "exactly the same", then you haven't played WotLK or you just don't remember it correctly. It's a very fast-paced AoE-fest for casual players, essentially.

[NineSpine]

Except all the catch-up gear, the dungeon design, the raid design, the class design, the leveling design, and later on the dungeon finder and accessibility features.

Yeah, exactly the same. /s

If you believe they are "exactly the same", then you haven't played WotLK or you just don't remember it correctly. It's a very fast-paced AoE-fest for casual players, essentially.

TBC had catch up gear. Everything else you listed is marginally different until ICC.

You are thinking of WOTLK during the second year, not the first year, and classic is based on the first year because that's when the patches were.

[Etna-the-Undying]

Yeah, because the few travelling people which are trying to get into dungeons are populating the world. /i
No, it's the people doing the outdoor content that are populating the world. Back in WotLK i was doing plenty of things outside in the world while being queued for a dungeon.

And is there really a difference between people sitting in Dala spamming lfg or trade-chat or waiting for a queue to pop? They are sitting in Dalaran anyways and are not out in the open world.



Nobody runs dungeons in WotLK for loot after a few weeks anymore. It's to grind reputations and batches. And if somebody gets into a dungeon to farm gear for his OS, he is totally allowed to do so. This could even be prevented, if the dungeon finder preferably builds server groups and only uses people from other servers to fill, if it could not build a group after a certain amount of time.

But I guess, it's easier to just be a doomsayer instead of looking for good compromises.

I dont get this. Who the hell is siting in a City spaming LF 2 more need tank and healer. Have you ever played with world chat? I have never once stood in a city spaming for a group i would always just create a quick macro and hit it on world chat while doing some quests or even on a leveling alt.
LFD will just make me have to sit on my main and wait for a queue. AFK ... cant even do BGs while in the queue. (TBH i think in wotlk you could still do a BG while in queue think it got removedin cata)

[kenn9530]

It absolutely did. When you were restricted to finding groups manually, you had to be nicer and actually get to know people. LFG just made group content very quiet and boring. Server communities died the more they tried to go cross-realm.

And yes, there's the argument that "some servers were so dead they had no communities" which honestly feels like it would've been solved if Blizzard cared to solve it. They took the easy approach by just allowing you to queue for everything, and the game bled to death.

It did not plain and simple, you obviously never played back then because the social aspect was the same regardless of LFD or not, dungeons in WotlK were mostly pointless so without LFD they will get ignored mostly. The game will not last without LFD and that is a fact.

You have to find groups for mythic plus and you dont have to be social for that either, being forced to manually find groups does not promote the game being social at all, once you find one you can just ingore everything since most content is easy.

Classic and TBC are mostly dead games, only the dedicated players play it anymore, WotlK will become the same without LFD as that has some power to retain players. Players are not interested in wasting too much time looking for groups.

WotlK was the most social WoW had ever been.

[BarosanuNr1]

[...] Like I said, the people playing Classic are looking for a different type of game from retail, regardless of age.

This quote is true, but it is too general a statement to describe the current situation with sufficient accuracy. I'd like to bring to your attention two points that are unfortunately ignored during most discussions concerning RDF:

Firstly, the Classic playerbase is not a monolith (and this quite clear from the numerous pages of this thread and of others, not to mention the intense emotions expressed by some posters). It is in fact possible to identify at least to distinct demographics within the Classic playerbase, based on the attitude towards RDF. These two demographics existed since the launch of Classic in 2019, but the distinction was not relevant until the announcement of Classic-WotLK, which is the expansion that first introduced RDF.

Secondly, the pro-LFD Classic demographic is currently served by neither Classic (which hasn't yet reached the RDF era) nor by Retail (in which RDF is available only for irrelevant content^*; not to mention the various changes made to the game over later expansions that are repulsive to Classic players, regardless of their attitude towards RDF). From the perspective of this pro-RDF Classic demographic (which became apparent only recently), the RDF feature is very important for their enjoyment of the game (regardless of how unthinkable this may sound to anti-RDF Classic players), one that cannot be available outside of the Classic project (due to the direction that Retail has taken) and that some (many?) have been eagerly waiting/hoping for for several years.

By removing RDF^**, Blizzard caters to the non-RDF Classic demographic, which was already served by Classic Vanilla and by Classic TBC and which continues to have available to it the Classic era realms^***. All the while, the other portion of the Classic demographic is left with nothing. This doesn't make sense to me from a business perspective (taking into account the little overlap - confirmed by Blizzard - between WoW's demographics) and it is also quite upsetting for one who finds themselves on the losing side.

I think we need to think of the Classic project like a train gradually passing through successive stations. Different Classic demographics (sub-groups of the Classic playerbase) have specific needs and these different groups might be served best by them getting off the train at different stations. There is no need to modify later stations in order to fit passengers that should've already gotten off (and whose ideal station is still there for them to enjoy). Alternatively, there is no need to force one version of the game on everyone when catering to all (e.g., by having RDF and non-RDF realms) likely doesn't involve too much effort on Blizzard's part.

<sub>*This being an intentional design choice, expanded over several expansions, claimed to be aimed at reinvigorating the social element of the game, but which never achieved its intended result. This failure is a distinct discussion though.

**As of right now, Blizzard's official position is to not have RDF in Classic WotLK at all. The issue of when exactly it could be implemented (e.g., at launch, in 3.3, at launch but with restrictions etc.) is also a distinct discussion.

***I realize these realms had a very rough start, which is entirely Blizzard's fault. However, I've read on forums that they are currently experiencing a revival of sorts. There is also SoM for those who prefer this iteration.</sub>

[Marxman]

I think we need to think of the Classic project like a train gradually passing through successive stations. Different Classic demographics (sub-groups of the Classic playerbase) have specific needs and these different groups might be served best by them getting off the train at different stations. There is no need to modify later stations in order to fit passengers that should've already gotten off (and whose ideal station is still there for them to enjoy). Alternatively, there is no need to force one version of the game on everyone when catering to all (e.g., by having RDF and non-RDF realms) likely doesn't involve too much effort on Blizzard's part.

I completely agree. Everyone has their preferred playstyle and expansion. There is no reason to try to make every expansion conform to the initial Vanilla Classic playerbase, when that playerbase would be much better served by the Classic-era servers that are still available. By doing so, you alienate the (much larger, it seems) playerbase who prefers WotLK and RDF.

If you put a huge emphasis on community, socialization, and the open world... great! There is a game that is specifically designed to highlight those aspects of the World of Warcraft. It's Classic era. Go play that.

[NineSpine]

This quote is true, but it is too general a statement to describe the current situation with sufficient accuracy. I'd like to bring to your attention two points that are unfortunately ignored during most discussions concerning RDF:

Firstly, the Classic playerbase is not a monolith (and this quite clear from the numerous pages of this thread and of others, not to mention the intense emotions expressed by some posters). It is in fact possible to identify at least to distinct demographics within the Classic playerbase, based on the attitude towards RDF. These two demographics existed since the launch of Classic in 2019, but the distinction was not relevant until the announcement of Classic-WotLK, which is the expansion that first introduced RDF.

Secondly, the pro-LFD Classic demographic is currently served by neither Classic (which hasn't yet reached the RDF era) nor by Retail (in which RDF is available only for irrelevant content^*; not to mention the various changes made to the game over later expansions that are repulsive to Classic players, regardless of their attitude towards RDF). From the perspective of this pro-RDF Classic demographic (which became apparent only recently), the RDF feature is very important for their enjoyment of the game (regardless of how unthinkable this may sound to anti-RDF Classic players), one that cannot be available outside of the Classic project (due to the direction that Retail has taken) and that some (many?) have been eagerly waiting/hoping for for several years.

By removing RDF^**, Blizzard caters to the non-RDF Classic demographic, which was already served by Classic Vanilla and by Classic TBC and which continues to have available to it the Classic era realms^***. All the while, the other portion of the Classic demographic is left with nothing. This doesn't make sense to me from a business perspective (taking into account the little overlap - confirmed by Blizzard - between WoW's demographics) and it is also quite upsetting for one who finds themselves on the losing side.

I think we need to think of the Classic project like a train gradually passing through successive stations. Different Classic demographics (sub-groups of the Classic playerbase) have specific needs and these different groups might be served best by them getting off the train at different stations. There is no need to modify later stations in order to fit passengers that should've already gotten off (and whose ideal station is still there for them to enjoy). Alternatively, there is no need to force one version of the game on everyone when catering to all (e.g., by having RDF and non-RDF realms) likely doesn't involve too much effort on Blizzard's part.

<sub>*This being an intentional design choice, expanded over several expansions, claimed to be aimed at reinvigorating the social element of the game, but which never achieved its intended result. This failure is a distinct discussion though.

**As of right now, Blizzard's official position is to not have RDF in Classic WotLK at all. The issue of when exactly it could be implemented (e.g., at launch, in 3.3, at launch but with restrictions etc.) is also a distinct discussion.

***I realize these realms had a very rough start, which is entirely Blizzard's fault. However, I've read on forums that they are currently experiencing a revival of sorts. There is also SoM for those who prefer this iteration.</sub>

I think things are a bit simpler than you are describing them. There are two main demographics for Classic:

1. Nostalgists
2. Old School MMO Fan

We've seen through both iterations of Classic that nostalgists don't hang around. They get bored quickly and move on, because that's how nostalgia works. I know almost nobody still playing TBC Classic who started in TBC Classic. The people left are the same people that hung around for all of Vanilla Classic. The people who said "I'm waiting for TBC" did so, and then promptly moved on a few weeks later. We see the same thing here. By and large, the people demanding RDF are saying "I'm waiting for Wrath". I see no reason to expect the pattern to break: New version releases, nostalgists come in, nostalgists go, old school MMO fans stay around.

RDF would not change that for one big reason: RDF was in the ICC patch so it wouldn't be introduced until the tail end of Wrath Classic anyway.

The idea of having RDF and non-RDF realms is just silly. Season of Mastery has been a dismal failure, because the audience for "Classic with modern touches" doesn't really exist. There are a loooooot of people who said "Oh I'd love classic with faster leveling and better tuned raids and some balance!" Where are they? They aren't playing Season of Mastery, because the truth is that what they want exists only in their minds. The truth is that if the presence of RDF is the difference between wanting to play Classic or not, then Classic isn't for you because the rest of the design decisions are so radically at odds with the type of player that wants RDF.

There is a game for people that want RDF. It is called "Retail wow".

- - - Updated - - -

I completely agree. Everyone has their preferred playstyle and expansion. There is no reason to try to make every expansion conform to the initial Vanilla Classic playerbase, when that playerbase would be much better served by the Classic-era servers that are still available. By doing so, you alienate the (much larger, it seems) playerbase who prefers WotLK and RDF.

If you put a huge emphasis on community, socialization, and the open world... great! There is a game that is specifically designed to highlight those aspects of the World of Warcraft. It's Classic era. Go play that.

There are zero people who are going to say "Oh I'll play Wrath if the last phase has RDF". These people do not exist. What is really being asked for is "Change wrath so that it always has RDF" or rephrased "Make wrath like retail, kick out the established classic playerbase and cater to a theoretical playerbase instead, which is coincidentally the same playerbase that SOM was aimed at and never showed up"

[Marxman]

There are zero people who are going to say "Oh I'll play Wrath if the last phase has RDF". These people do not exist. What is really being asked for is "Change wrath so that it always has RDF" or rephrased "Make wrath like retail, kick out the established classic playerbase and cater to a theoretical playerbase instead, which is coincidentally the same playerbase that SOM was aimed at and never showed up"

SoM failed because they launched it alongside TBC, which also had some QoL improvements that basically made SoM irrelevant. The people who want Vanilla typically want old school, hardcore, slow-as-fuck Vanilla. That's their thing, and that's fine. SoM was trying to make WotLK+ players get interested in Vanilla, which just isn't going to happen, especially when you also launch TBC at nearly the same time.

Painting this as "SoM failed, therefore no one wants convenience or QoL in Classic games" is just completely misreading the situation. SoM failed because A) They launched it too early, right after everyone had just done 2 years of Vanilla, B) They launched it alongside TBC, and C) WotLK+ players don't want Vanilla, they want WotLK+.

As polls have shown, the number of people who want RDF/LFD far outnumbers the people who don't. Nearly 3:1.

It's also completely ridiculous to say LFD makes Wrath like retail. Retail doesn't even really use RDF anymore, it uses the LFG tool because all relevant content cannot be random queued. RDF/LFR are basically on life support at max level in retail... and the community still isn't good there. Wow, almost like a terrible community has *nothing* to do with LFD. Weird!

[NineSpine]

SoM failed because they launched it alongside TBC, which also had some QoL improvements that basically made SoM irrelevant. The people who want Vanilla typically want old school, hardcore, slow-as-fuck Vanilla. That's their thing, and that's fine. SoM was trying to make WotLK+ players get interested in Vanilla, which just isn't going to happen, especially when you also launch TBC at nearly the same time.

Painting this as "SoM failed, therefore no one wants convenience or QoL in Classic games" is just completely misreading the situation. SoM failed because A) They launched it too early, right after everyone had just done 2 years of Vanilla, B) They launched it alongside TBC, and C) WotLK+ players don't want Vanilla, they want WotLK+.

As polls have shown, the number of people who want RDF/LFD far outnumbers the people who don't. Nearly 3:1.

It's also completely ridiculous to say LFD makes Wrath like retail. Retail doesn't even really use RDF anymore, it uses the LFG tool because all relevant content cannot be random queued. RDF/LFR are basically on life support at max level in retail... and the community still isn't good there. Wow, almost like a terrible community has *nothing* to do with LFD. Weird!

RDF is not quality of life or convenience. It is a fundamental change to the game.

A poll in a thread about the topic, which is going to attract people interested in it, is the weakest possible form of evidence.

50% of retail players never set foot in the "relevant content" you are referring to.

You are just wrong on so many levels, and you are piling these false notions together to come to a really weird narrative.

RDF did not exist until ICC. It would be in the final phase or two if we implemented it when it was originally added. People here want it in the beginning instead. Has it occurred to you that the experience of queueing up for a dungeon when everyone is in pre-Naxx gear might be a very, very, very, very different experience compared to queueing up for a dungeon THREE PATCHES LATER when the dungeons were easily steamrolled by anyone? This is what I mean when I say that nobody wants this. People have this idea in their head that if we add RDF throughout all of Wrath, which would absolutely be requesting RETAIL features be added to the game before they were in the patches, it will magically feel like it did when people were wtf-rofl-stomping dungeons post-ICC. That's not what it's going to be. What it's going to be is more like Cataclysm, where you queue up, wipe on the first boss, and then people drop group. Not to mention that you would also need to implement the REWARD STRUCTURE of RFD which means introducing whole new progression systems before they were originally in the game. You all are not thinking this through, which is why catering to you is a terrible idea.

[Marxman]

RDF did not exist until ICC. It would be in the final phase or two if we implemented it when it was originally added. People here want it in the beginning instead. Has it occurred to you that the experience of queueing up for a dungeon when everyone is in pre-Naxx gear might be a very, very, very, very different experience compared to queueing up for a dungeon THREE PATCHES LATER when the dungeons were easily steamrolled by anyone? This is what I mean when I say that nobody wants this. People have this idea in their head that if we add RDF throughout all of Wrath, which would absolutely be requesting RETAIL features be added to the game before they were in the patches, it will magically feel like it did when people were wtf-rofl-stomping dungeons post-ICC. That's not what it's going to be. What it's going to be is more like Cataclysm, where you queue up, wipe on the first boss, and then people drop group. Not to mention that you would also need to implement the REWARD STRUCTURE of RFD which means introducing whole new progression systems before they were originally in the game. You all are not thinking this through, which is why catering to you is a terrible idea.

You do understand that a large percentage of Classic players were originally pserver players, right? This isn't some "oh I'm just not remembering this right" thing. I know exactly what it feels like to queue for RDF heroics in bare-minimum item level in WotLK. I did it less than a year ago... in BUFFED heroic dungeons, no less. It's fine. It's easy. It's extremely easy, actually.

RDF works perfectly fine in the 3.0 launch content. There is no reward structure conflict, no struggles through dungeons, or much toxicity to speak of (at least no more than already exists in this trash fire of a community). I've done it multiple times in the past several years. You're creating issues that simply do not and will not exist.

[NineSpine]

You do understand that a large percentage of Classic players were originally pserver players, right? This isn't some "oh I'm just not remembering this right" thing. I know exactly what it feels like to queue for RDF heroics in bare-minimum item level in WotLK. I did it less than a year ago... in BUFFED heroic dungeons, no less. It's fine. It's easy. It's extremely easy, actually.

RDF works perfectly fine in the 3.0 launch content. There is no reward structure conflict, no struggles through dungeons, or much toxicity to speak of (at least no more than already exists in this trash fire of a community). I've done it multiple times in the past several years. You're creating issues that simply do not and will not exist.

I cannot possibly express more strongly how much you just proved my case.

Even if we put aside the imperfection of pservers, do you think the types of players who are going to go through the trouble of playing on a server, let alone a BUFFED PSERVER, are the same types of players that are going to be playing an official version of Classic Wrath? You genuinely don't think there might be some knowledge or skill cap difference there? This is the kind of know-nothing self-assuredness that I am glad Blizzard is thankfully not going along with.

"I logged into a buffed pserver and the people there had no problems!" Unreal that this is a real argument a real person just made.

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You do understand that a large percentage of Classic players were originally pserver players, right?

By the way, this is absolute horseshit. The classic population dwarfs the pserver communities by many orders of magnitude.

[DarkAmbient]

And that's not how classic works so it is is irrelevant. The ICC phase will be the last or second to last phase.

I'll repeat myself: Classic servers don't emulate patch length.

See, the problem here is you have a catch 22:

You can admit that it wasn't added until one of the last patches, which means it shouldn't be added until the end of Classic Wrath, rendering your argument pointless.
OR
You can demand LFD be introduced earlier than it was in the actual expansion which undermines your case that Wrath should be like Wrath was.

There is no win here for you.

I already told you in another post that I'm not a no-changes purist, and I don't believe I've said that Classic should be identical to the original in every way. Yes, the dungeon finder should be released with 3.3.0 if they are going to exactly mirror history, but frankly if they had it at the start it wouldn't bother me, as IMO it would only improve the experience. It's the total removal of it that bothers me. Blizzard listened to vanilla/TBC players instead of the people were waiting for Wrath.

[Marxman]

snip

You give far, far, far too much credit to the average pserver player lol. I would wager that the average player on that server was worse than the average TBCC player right now. Most of them are Russian or South American players that can barely hold a mouse, much less do hard content. That's just how easy WotLK heroics are. Like I cannot stress this enough: WotLK heroics are completely, utterly braindead faceroll content.

[NineSpine]

You give far, far, far too much credit to the average pserver player lol. I would wager that the average player on that server was worse than the average TBCC player right now. Most of them are Russian or South American players that can barely hold a mouse, much less do hard content. That's just how easy WotLK heroics are. Like I cannot stress this enough: WotLK heroics are completely, utterly braindead faceroll content.

Cataclysm heroics were tuned the same as wotlk heroics. Ghostcrawler confirmed this. The only different was the RDF.

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I already told you in another post that I'm not a no-changes purist, and I don't believe I've said that Classic should be identical to the original in every way. Yes, the dungeon finder should be released with 3.3.0 if they are going to exactly mirror history, but frankly if they had it at the start it wouldn't bother me, as IMO it would only improve the experience. It's the total removal of it that bothers me. Blizzard listened to vanilla/TBC players instead of the people were waiting for Wrath.

Blizzard is listened to the people that play the product, rather than the people who say "I'd play it if..." because the people that already play the product already proved they'll pay for it.