How I Would Fix Drakthyr

[Ghanir]

When I tell you elementary level facts that you’re getting wrong? I’m sorry dude but if you came in here and said “1+1 is in fact 3” and I told you that you were wrong and you should understand this by now, nothing would change.

What you’re saying is wrong. It’s grade level stuff at that. Call it whatever you like

Baseless claims and assumptions, all while claiming it to be objective. Sure-fire way to get ignored.

[Royru]

Baseless claims and assumptions, all while claiming it to be objective. Sure-fire way to get ignored.

Buddy, you have already shown me you have nothing above a 3rd grade level to offer me, why would I care?

[Teriz]

I know we have a very limited sample size to base things off of but in this specific instance I must disagree

Which is fine. Different people like different things.

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Are you being obtuse for the sole purpose of being obtuse? Who said inside?

I did, and you were responding to me.

Also, why would you even try to focus on inside when you brought up the Dracthyr flying animation as an example of them being visual obstructions?

Because they can literally fly indoors and in combat.

[ChairmanKaga]

I haven't checked in for a bit, are goobers still complaining the Drak's don't look like this?

[Calfredd]

I haven't checked in for a bit, are goobers still complaining the Drak's don't look like this?
[IMG]https://i0.wp.com/www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/395312/cMA32720001-0006.jpg?w=1550&ssl=1[IMG]

No people are complaining that people who want drackthyr slightly bulkier are wanting them to be like that.

[Teriz]

No people are complaining that people who want drackthyr slightly bulkier are wanting them to be like that.

The pic above is “slightly bulkier”? That’s what they want.

[Calfredd]

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSU1rauWYAA2qFS?format=jpg&name=large[IMG]

The pic above is “slightly bulkier”? That’s what they want.

That is what you want them to want so you can stay on your high horse and dismiss all criticism over the actions and ideas of a minority (ironic given that MMO-C is already a minority).

[Supertoster]

The pic above is “slightly bulkier”? That’s what they want.

Considering how slender Dracthyr are, this art is in not slightly bulkier, it is much more bulkier.
But it looks great not because of "bulk factor". It looks great because it has better proportions.

[Teriz]

That is what you want them to want so you can stay on your high horse and dismiss all criticism over the actions and ideas of a minority (ironic given that MMO-C is already a minority).

You can go back through the posts where this image was posted. It’s pretty clear that that is the “bulk” they’re talking about.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I did, and you were responding to me.

Where? In the thread of responses I responded to, I went 8 links back and nowhere is indoors stated. I don't care if you mentioned it somewhere in someplace in the thread that at no point was directed at me or wasn't in that flow of links.

Because they can literally fly indoors and in combat.

And? You've not made a point here. They're not flying around the room with the freedom that you would have in the outdoors, they're part of some animation subset. Their wings won't be constantly at their full width, and when they are it will only be for the cast or animation time for some abilities (which, from what we've seen, is a few seconds at most). Moreover, raids never and dungeons typically don't obstruct camera distance, meaning the overwhelming majority of your screen will still be unobstructed (and your character won't be meaningfully obstructing mechanics). This whole "but indoors and in combat" line of thinking does not match with reality. You would have to be a non-raider or someone who has never played a large race to think that anything you are implying matches reality.

Again, even if I were to grant you all of these things, which do not match with reality, it would not matter. How does making the character more bulky affect visual clarity when the problem with the race appears to be primarily due to with wings? You've not answered this and, frankly, I don't think anyone who is against having bulkier versions have answers either.

[Teriz]

Considering how slender Dracthyr are, this art is in not slightly bulkier, it is much more bulkier.
But it looks great not because of "bulk factor". It looks great because it has better proportions.

I feel that the existing proportions are just fine. The major issue is that due to the sheer size of the Dracthyr, I don't believe that more bulk is possible.

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Where? In the thread of responses I responded to, I went 8 links back and nowhere is indoors stated. I don't care if you mentioned it somewhere in someplace in the thread that at no point was directed at me or wasn't in that flow of links.

I've been talking about the Dracthyr size issue in regards to Raids and Dungeons. The vast majority of Raids and Dungeons take place indoors.

And? You've not made a point here. They're not flying around the room with the freedom that you would have in the outdoors, they're part of some animation subset.

Wrong.

Moreover, raids never and dungeons typically don't obstruct camera distance, meaning the overwhelming majority of your screen will still be unobstructed (and your character won't be meaningfully obstructing mechanics). This whole "but indoors and in combat" line of thinking does not match with reality. You would have to be a non-raider or someone who has never played a large race to think that anything you are implying matches reality.

Except there are multiple occurrences where you're fighting in corridors and/or tunnels. Even one fight like that during a raid or dungeon can be annoying and actually cause a wipe to occur. Imagine 2-3 bulky Dracthyrs with their wings flapping everywhere while you're trying to target or see what's happening with the melee in front. That's going to be a problem. It could be a problem even with one bulky Dracthyr.

Again, even if I were to grant you all of these things, which do not match with reality, it would not matter. How does making the character more bulky affect visual clarity when the problem with the race appears to be primarily due to with wings? You've not answered this and, frankly, I don't think anyone who is against having bulkier versions have answers either.

Which part doesn't match reality? The Dracthyr can literally fly in combat. There are dungeons and raids where you are in corridors and/or tunnels with limited camera options. The Dracthyr have large wingspans that open up frequently when performing spells and abilities. I would argue that they're already a potential visual problem even at their current slender state. Now you're saying that making them even LARGER wouldn't be a problem?

[Supertoster]

I feel that the existing proportions are just fine. The major issue is that due to the sheer size of the Dracthyr, I don't believe that more bulk is possible.

From artistic and anatomical point of view their proportions are bad.
Actually, their "sheer size", which you consider as a limiting factor for some unknown reasons, comes from their bad proportions. Their legs should be shorter by ~1/3 at least, their neck should be shorter by ~1/2, their arm should be shorter by ~1/4 to match new height, their hips should be slightly more slender at upper part, while arms should be thicker.

[Teriz]

From artistic and anatomical point of view their proportions are bad.
Actually, their "sheer size", which you consider as a limiting factor for some unknown reasons, comes from their bad proportions. Their legs should be shorter by ~1/3 at least, their neck should be shorter by ~1/2, their arm should be shorter by ~1/4 to match new height, their hips should be slightly more slender at upper part, while arms should be thicker.

And the wings? The Wings have to be increased in size to match the wider frame. Even in that pic you posted, the wings are noticeably larger.

[Supertoster]

And the wings? The Wings have to be increased in size to match the wider frame. Even in that pic you posted, the wings are noticeably larger.

The male Nathrezim model (and DH meta) are great examples of what size wings should be to match proper body proportions.
Wings are not a problem at all.
Actually, male Nathrezim model has the most fitting proportions for such creature. It is bulky enough to look powerful, but not too huge. It has good proportions of length of limbs and limbs have proper thickness ratio. And they don't have unnecessary long necks. And their wings are fine too.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Wrong.

OK, so good to know that your argument is predicated on a single gif taken from the reveal. I will refer you to the Dracthyr Evoker & Dragonriding Preview where all of the animations shown there do not include flying. This argument that they'll be flying with the same freedom that you have outdoors, or even that the majority of their spell effects include flying, is a non-starter, especially if wholly predicated on a single gif taken from the reveal while very blatantly ignoring every other spell shown. Even the effects shown which include movement of the wings, it's either a momentary flick or for the duration of the spell, lasting a few seconds which is, funnily enough, almost exactly what I said.

Except there are multiple occurrences where you're fighting in corridors and/or tunnels. Even one fight like that during a raid or dungeon can be annoying and actually cause a wipe to occur. Imagine 2-3 bulky Dracthyrs with their wings flapping everywhere while you're trying to target or see what's happening with the melee in front. That's going to be a problem. It could be a problem even with one bulky Dracthyr.

Name recent examples of this. I'll give you a hint in your search, essentially every single raid in Shadowlands, BfA, and Legion has a large, open boss arena to give players high visibility, and almost all dungeons bosses have similar arenas. If you're going to argue that you don't mean bosses but trash packs, don't bother. This isn't an argument that's worth having if that is the case.

Which part doesn't match reality? The Dracthyr can literally fly in combat. There are dungeons and raids where you are in corridors and/or tunnels with limited camera options. The Dracthyr have large wingspans that open up frequently when performing spells and abilities. I would argue that they're already a potential visual problem even at their current slender state. Now you're saying that making them even LARGER wouldn't be a problem?

1) Dracthyr aren't flying with the same level of freedom as they would have outside, their flying animations are tied to a small subset of spells. Your claims that it is "frequent" in the context of the gif shown is wrong, and in the contexts I already acknowledged is irrelevant due to how short a timespan it is.
2) Dungeons and raid encounters almost exclusively have large boss arenas to fight in. No one cares if some small spaces exist during trash packs.
3) If the problem is the wings, not the central mass, then so long as the wings don't increase in size it does not matter. The logic you're using to try and make the case that it does matter is not even internally sound.
4) Your understanding of what can clutter someone's screen is detached from reality and shows you do not participate in endgame content. You're ignoring the fact that there are classes which do more to "clutter" melee, specs like Demonology Warlocks who frequently have 1 - 3 demons as large or larger than players in melee with a boss (each), and they're a single class, acting like Dracthyr are going to be the straw that broke the camels back is dishonest. This is especially so if you want to take it from the perspective of a healer at range, who is more focused on frames than anything else in melee.

[Mutineer]

Why can't we all just get along in our indifference and agree that more options = good?

I can agree with that, within reason. Some people want dragon boobs and I'll oppose that to the bitter end, but otherwise I don't have any problem with dracthyr getting a bulkier body type - as many have said, most races get two models, so as long as being bulky or sleek isn't tied to the character's sex, I don't see any issue with having the option.

What I'm scared of is Blizzard doing what they did to worgen back in Cataclysm's development and utterly butchering the whole design in a frantic bid to appease people wailing about DeviantArt and furries. Any new options should be additive and not a complete redesign of the whole concept. The people advocating for just another body type that doesn't completely change the whole design are fine by me, it's the people demanding the whole race gets scrapped and replaced with a generically human-shaped, dragon-headed hunk that I take issue with.

[Teriz]

The male Nathrezim model (and DH meta) are great examples of what size wings should be to match proper body proportions.
Wings are not a problem at all.

Nathrezims aren't playable races, and Metamorphosis is not a permanent form that persists throughout combat phases.

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OK, so good to know that your argument is predicated on a single gif taken from the reveal. I will refer you to the Dracthyr Evoker & Dragonriding Preview where all of the animations shown there do not include flying. This argument that they'll be flying with the same freedom that you have outdoors, or even that the majority of their spell effects include flying, is a non-starter, especially if wholly predicated on a single gif taken from the reveal while very blatantly ignoring every other spell shown. Even the effects shown which include movement of the wings, it's either a momentary flick or for the duration of the spell, lasting a few seconds which is, funnily enough, almost exactly what I said.

I'm also basing it on the Brian Holinka interview where he specifically talked about the ability, which he calls "Soar";

Soar is the ability that lets you hover in the air for a duration while casting abilities on the move.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content/?page=5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p7_6zBe7Lk

There's also this ability;



So who knows what else they're going to give them. That's two abilities that we know about, and based on the Holinka (and Ion's) video, they seem pretty keen on having these characters utilizing their wings for flight in combat.

Name recent examples of this. I'll give you a hint in your search, essentially every single raid in Shadowlands, BfA, and Legion has a large, open boss arena to give players high visibility, and almost all dungeons bosses have similar arenas. If you're going to argue that you don't mean bosses but trash packs, don't bother. This isn't an argument that's worth having if that is the case.

And raids and groups can wipe on trash packs.

1) Dracthyr aren't flying with the same level of freedom as they would have outside, their flying animations are tied to a small subset of spells. Your claims that it is "frequent" in the context of the gif shown is wrong, and in the contexts I already acknowledged is irrelevant due to how short a timespan it is.

Again, watch the Brian Holinka interview.

2) Dungeons and raid encounters almost exclusively have large boss arenas to fight in. No one cares if some small spaces exist during trash packs.

And once again, your raid/group CAN wipe on trash packs.

3) If the problem is the wings, not the central mass, then so long as the wings don't increase in size it does not matter. The logic you're using to try and make the case that it does matter is not even internally sound.

The problem is both. The central mass is an obstruction, and the wings are an obstruction. The thing is, we're used to a central mass obstruction because of Tauren and Draenei, and those are occasional problems. The issue is that you have that common obstruction in addition to large flapping wings. And wings will increase in size because multiple abilities show the wings consistently opening and closing;

4) Your understanding of what can clutter someone's screen is detached from reality and shows you do not participate in endgame content.

Says the guy who talked about mounting in an indoor environment.....

[Magical Mudcrab]

I'm also basing it on the Brian Holinka interview where he specifically talked about the ability, which he calls "Soar";

...

Again, watch the Brian Holinka interview.

Ok, so what you're telling me is that they have a single ability - called "Soar" - which allows them to cast spells while moving for a short time. This is even less convincing than what I had thought. The idea of them having a Cunning of Kil'jaeden-style ability that allows them to move while casting for a small percentage of the fight, considering CD and how unlikely it is to use it on CD (given it will only be used for movement-heavy phases), is not a problem.

And raids and groups can wipe on trash packs.

...

And once again, your raid/group CAN wipe on trash packs.

This is a fundamentally stupid argument. No one cares about additional clutter on trash in raids. Even in M+, you are pulling tens of mobs at a time when farming keys for AoE. The idea that the Dracthyr will be the thing causing mass wipes on trash because of low visibility is an argument that can only be made by someone who does no endgame content. Visibility on trash is not even a point worth considering in this context.

The problem is both. The central mass is an obstruction, and the wings are an obstruction. The thing is, we're used to a central mass obstruction because of Tauren and Draenei, and those are occasional problems. The issue is that you have that common obstruction in addition to large flapping wings. And wings will increase in size because multiple abilities show the wings consistently opening and closing;

OK, so, you're saying that increasing the bulk of their central mass, which is largely obstructed by their wings already, will cause additional obstruction because they are thicker, even though their wings are obstructing their body anyways? Do you seriously not see how this does not make sense? If the wings are already blocking visibility of their body, increasing their bulk does not make them a larger obstruction. You're saying "both" but only arguing against wings.

Says the guy who talked about mounting in an indoor environment.....

No, stop being dishonest, though given your concerns I shouldn't be too surprised as you are commenting on content you obviously don't do. The point that was being made, that you ignored, was that you can have a large model that takes up a sizable chunk of your screen and not have your own vision obstructed.

[Supertoster]

Nathrezims aren't playable races, and Metamorphosis is not a permanent form that persists throughout combat phases.

So what? Where is an argument? You just did a completely random statement.
I mean, it is not a first time you do so but... why?

[Teriz]

Ok, so what you're telling me is that they have a single ability - called "Soar" - which allows them to cast spells while moving for a short time. This is even less convincing than what I had thought. The idea of them having a Cunning of Kil'jaeden-style ability that allows them to move while casting for a small percentage of the fight, considering CD and how unlikely it is to use it on CD (given it will only be used for movement-heavy phases), is not a problem.

While moving in flight along with the ability to perform their abilities in flight. That is an unprecedented ability in WoW, even if its a long cooldown. However, the way Holinka was describing it, it is HIGHLY unlikely to be a long cooldown. More to the point; Imagine a tauren sized character hovering with massive wings flapping right in your character's line of sight. That's a problem.

This is a fundamentally stupid argument. No one cares about additional clutter on trash in raids. Even in M+, you are pulling tens of mobs at a time when farming keys for AoE. The idea that the Dracthyr will be the thing causing mass wipes on trash because of low visibility is an argument that can only be made by someone who does no endgame content. Visibility on trash is not even a point worth considering in this context.

What is a fundamentally stupid argument is the notion that raid and dungeon groups don't wipe on trash, and pretending that multiple large visual obstructions in tight or indoor spaces can't increase the chances of wiping on said trash.

OK, so, you're saying that increasing the bulk of their central mass, which is largely obstructed by their wings already, will cause additional obstruction because they are thicker, even though their wings are obstructing their body anyways? Do you seriously not see how this does not make sense? If the wings are already blocking visibility of their body, increasing their bulk does not make them a larger obstruction. You're saying "both" but only arguing against wings.

You do understand that wings stick out on either side of the central mass correct? Which means that when the wings open (which again is a consistent thing), the obstruction becomes larger and more distracting for the person trying to see past said obstruction. We also haven't talked about the Dracthyr's tail, which is also a visual obstruction.

No, stop being dishonest, though given your concerns I shouldn't be too surprised as you are commenting on content you obviously don't do. The point that was being made, that you ignored, was that you can have a large model that takes up a sizable chunk of your screen and not have your own vision obstructed.

Considering that Blizzard created the Dracthyr BECAUSE of size concerns, your argument that size doesn't matter doesn't make much sense.

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So what? Where is an argument? You just did a completely random statement.
I mean, it is not a first time you do so but... why?

The argument is that you're comparing non-equivalent things. We don't have playable Natherzims participating in raids or group play, and metamorphosis isn't a constant form.

The Dracthyr form, on the other hand, will be a constant form participating in group play.