STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Royru]

Your argument was that you could obtain BiS casually in Destiny 2. That's not true. Adpet weapons are 100% of the conversation about obtaining BiS especially with curated rolls. My Time Lost Fate Bringer gets plenty of work out and that's largely because the rolls are curated, and it allows for Adept Big Ones to help me in harder content. Arguing that Adept weapons aren't apart of BiS, is a fallacy

I mentioned that a casual gamer CAN get BiS gear but the BiS gear is almost meaningless because the gear they get through 100% casual play is just as good as BiS gear. The difference between the two is so small it doesn't even matter. And depending on the content the casual gear might in fact be BETTER than any adept weapons you have. Which is 100% fact.

And your adept fatebringer would have been almost next to useless compared to a regular ass god roll bow in this last week's grandmaster where it was overload/antibarrier with arc burn.

The BiS changes depending on the activity and for this last weeks activity the BiS was arguably Arbalist (you can get that if you're a casual), an overload smg/auto rifle probably arc (both can have BiS casual level god roll gear), and a heavy of your choice. Palymera B is what I used which is super casual and crafted.

And even with this weeks nightfall where hand cannons are good, even though an adept hand cannon could be in someone's BiS...you can also argue BiS has witherhoard (casual weapon) in the kinetic slot with one person running something like gnawing hunger (against casual) and another running something like a void pulse (also super casual).

The point of that is, even without BiS you can still do that content just as easy with no problems. The way you are framing 'bis' in destiny is completely incorrect. Like not even close to reality.

That video literally proved my point. If you could have a well rolled weapon that gets the same 7.7% damage increase across Majors, Bosses, and Vehicles with one mod (Versus two separate mods), it always going to better than a weapon that cannot use that mod. Quite literally BIS.

I never said that it wasn't better? I never once said that the mod wasn't better. I said the difference between the BiS and just a regualr ass mod is so small it isn't even worth mentioning. That damage bonus isn't going to gatekeep or carry you through ANY content in the game. Hard stop.

If I walk into a mythic raid in wow with normal gear, it will be physically impossible for me to even complete it. No matter how good I am as a player. Alternatively, I can walk into a normal raid as a mythic geared player and basically go on auto pilot.

Whereas in destiny, if you have an adept fatebringer and I have a regular ass fatebringer and we both go into the hardest content the game has to offer and I'm even just SLIGHTLY better than you.... I'm going to out perform you. No questions even asked.

I've personally used Curias of the Falling Star, Renewal Grasps (Which is actually getting nerfed next patch because of how good it was), Star-Eater's Scales, and Ominoculus for GM nightfalls. Not one a single one of those is a throw pick of an exotic and in some cases (Like Omni) very meta. Lost Sector exotics are WAY better than you are giving them cred it for.

The only one I mentoned was necrotic grips dude. And I didn't even say they were all bad I said that there is almost no real huge power difference between those and just regular exotics you get from doing anything else.

None of this even matters anyway because you literally only get this gear if you play through it SOLO and the content is very easily overgeared through super casual content. So the fact that you even mentioned these ruins your point entirely.

Big Doubt. You spend a lot more time playing than you say you do if you have two sets of gear with X100 Stats. You're a player with less time, OR more likely, someone who spent an a lot of time upfront and now aren't logging in on the regular.

Well I'm here to tell you its true man lol. Two sets of gear really just means carrying over my high stat armor from the past years as well as using the mod in your ghost to farm high stat armor through the helm. Literally can be done in 1 week of playing an hour a day, spread that out to one day a week and you can easily get this in a month of super casual play. The mods you get for this gear is literally free you just have to wait for them to open up.

Do you even understand how destiny 2 works?

What you're asking for from WOW isn't a lower time investment, its content that can be done in smaller groups that gives similar progression to people doing 20 Man Mythic.

It's that as well as lower time investment. In order to get to the highest item level in destiny, you need to do weeklies which takes you maybe 2-3 hours a week...and you do this for about 4-5 weeks and your at the highest item level.

And you're acting like a casual player is over here doing Grand Master Nightfalls, when that is not the case for the vast majority of players who would label themselves casual. The barrier to entry in Destiny's for hard content (Master Raids, Grand Master Nightfalls, Master Lost Sectors, Trials) all require a vast amount of knowledge(Builds, Enemy Spawn Locations, ect.), specific weapons and rolls for those weapons, and a vast collection of Mods that a casual player will not have access to.

I am a casual player and I am doing grand master nightfalls every single week. I am also completing all the lost sectors I want if I want a specific piece. It is not hard. Lose sectors can be easily outgeared by anyone and grandmasters just take knowledge of the fight. The only gear gating is through getting the highest light level your armor can get which literally takes maybe a month of super duper casual play.

Also, what do you mean "A vast amount of knowledge"? You look at the grandmaster, look at what shields are present, look at the champion mods for the week, make sure you cover those up with the weapons you have on you, and that's it...you run the grandmaster. You do NOT need specific weapons you do NOT NEED specific rolls for those weapons. The mod collection is MADE FOR CASUALS. The mods you get are literally on a random shop keeper named ada-1 that costs the equivalent of 1k gold in wow. What are you even talking about?

And despite things like Raids (not master raids) being far easier than their WoW Counterparts, and providing immense power (DSC Weapons are still plenty powerful), especially with weapon crafting, only around 10-16% of players ever complete a raid. So even if you can get to max power level to start doing these activities, players aren't going, "Oh I can finally que for GMs or Master Vow!" They're happy running Psi Ops, Working on Triumphs, or for the next two weeks earning medals for the Guardian Games.

I'm telling you right now. AS A CASUAL PLAYER. I HAVE NOT DONE ANY RAIDS SINCE GARDEN WAS FIRST RELEASED. I HAVE NOT GOTTEN ANY PIECE OF ANY RAID LOOT FOR YEARS. And that is the first thing me and my friend think when we play destiny is exactly that. "We can finally do GMs and master Grasp" or whatever dungeon/strike is soloable/2 man-able.

So why does retail WoW fall flat, when its giving you a full set of Normal Raid Gear as your progression, that can turned around do the vast majority of content in this game? Because people got KSM week 2 of Season 3 with optimized 252 gear from the previous patch with no double legendary or tier gear. Because the number isn't the same?

Because wow doesn't respect your time when it comes to progressing your gear. The gear you get for this play is trash. Normal level gear is not even close to the same level of gear you get on destiny 2. I can play super casual in destiny 2 and the moment I hit 1575 (or whatever number this is depending on the season) I can instantly step into the hardest difficulty with anyone in destiny 2. In wow, if I had a free weekend to play hard I can't step into mythic raiding even if I wanted to with my normal gear. It isn't even possible. In destiny I can, and I won't just be able to do it, I will be competing with everyone else.

Gearing you mean where it didn't make sense in TBC? Where the effort vs reward was laughable compared to Retail WoW? Where if you were a Shadow priest, Warlock or Frost Mage you went tailoring and didn't take Frozen Shadowweave off until Black Temple? No. We're never returning to a place where you never take off gear for the vast majority of an expansion. You might have an item or two like Old Warrior's Soul or Edge of Night, but it still requires a substantial effort.

I was just comparing it to a version of wow I'm more familiar with. Having casual gear in destiny is similar to being on par with a current top tier raider (like a mythic raider) but you might be missing a specific piece that would techinically put you in BiS.

If you wana argue for less of an item level cap than argue for that. But don't come in here saying Destiny 2 lets you get BiS doing casual content when it very clearly does not. It lets you become powerful in the same way Zerith Mortis gear allows you to become powerful in WoW alongside the Creation Catalyst.

I already have said this before, Destiny 2 lets you get the best item leveled gear in the game which is on par with having mythic raiding loot in wow. BiS in destiny 2 is a meaningless word. BiS for a specific activity could 100% come from just casual play. Like this week for example, ONE OF THE BiS for this grandmaster is arguably Arbelist, gnawing hunger, and threaded needle. Obviously your group needs other mods as well to make this work but this is one possible BiS that is 100% obtainable with just casual play.

The way you are acting like destiny 2 has a defined BiS makes me think you have no clue what you're talking aobut.

An optimized player in Destiny 2 that would be considered BiS would put in probably more effort than a mythic raider has to in wow. Especially with the randomness of rolls.

Absolutely 100% not. Not even remotely close. Don't even try to pass this nonsense off as even remotely factual.

[deenman]

You're never going to get that in WoW. The developers are clearly in the mindset that if you don't do premade content you don't deserve a satisfying long term gear progression curve. If that's something that's important to you then you should play FF14 instead. WoW is a game for hardcore players only.

thats because you dont deserve high end gear for doing braindead content,how is this a difficult or unfair concept to grasp?you do difficult stuff,you get good gear,if you dont do difficult stuff.....why do you need that gear?

[Playintrafic]

The endgame queued content in FF14 is objectively harder than LFR. Which raid did you find easier than LFR?

It might be now, but in HWard and Sblood they were all piss easy. Nearly impossible to fail.

Wow LFR just has that stacking buff, where if you die enough it becomes very trivial so even if only a third of the raid knows what they are doing it will die.

[VMSmith]

Do we actually know that subs dropped? SW Tor is my MMO I want to love but it has been so unbelievably starved for good content I find it difficult to play for more than like a month at a time. Actually seems like a really good example to me of why I actually want content to be sunsetted so that you're not running the same dungeons for 10 years

Steam charts cannot give a definite number of subscribers, of course, but there are enough players logging in via Steam that we can see the overall trend for the game. And within a month of the expansion, they have already dipped down to nearly the lowest point they've been at since the game became available on Steam. Only one month, in the summer lull last year, has been worse. An expansion should hold players much, much longer than less than a month.

And with the fixes this month there's been only the tiniest rebound, about 1%. The situation is pretty dire for SWTOR right now, having lost more than the players it gained with an expansion launch only a month into the expansion.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Sad. Though hard to say what the cause(s) of that is though. I personally think amount of content (over quality) is the #1 thing in all MMOs, same with basically subscription services, whether we like to admit it or not. But perhaps that is overly cynical!

[Relapses]

The problem is the exactly granularity you are already referring to. There shouldn't be this many difficulties and caveats. There should just be a queued version of the content and an organized version of the content, and the content needs to be designed to work well in a queue. Right now, the content is simply watered down until the queue works. That provides a bad experience for the queue. The content feels watered down. It feels lame.

I agree to an extent -- I think that Blizzard is still reluctant because of the bad experience that players had at the beginning of Cata. Whenever the subject comes up, they always reference back to it so I want to think that it has to stand as one of the "DO NOT EVER DO THIS" type things that Blizzard has learned. There's something to be said about that being over a decade ago and on the heels of one of the easiest end-of-expansion experiences the game ever had; players then are different than players today. So there is some amount of slack that Blizzard could work with to give back modern players the option to queue into more difficult content again. In terms of granular difficulty levels, I've said a few times that I feel like Normal mode is largely redundant so I personally wouldn't mind seeing that go away. Making the raid queueable will present a balancing challenge, for sure, but I think this can be largely offset if Blizzard creates a linear encounter-difficulty which ramps up the deeper in the raid you go. M+, on the other hand, I feel is fine the way it is and wouldn't need any major changes; hell, the MMR system is already halfway there in the form of M+ score. If they do introduce a queue system for it though, I think it'd be better if they let you queue into a squad that is designed to push from a certain key level upwards. (For example, you queue into a squad that starts at keystone level 10 then you guys push that key as high as it'll go.)

Obviously my example is one of many ways they could tackle it and I'm not implying my idea is the best. But like I said, I can definitely see a world where Blizzard implements something like this in the future. I personally prefer the current system but I also understand that it is somewhat outdated and the prevailing needs of the changing playerbase may necessitate a change like this.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but I'm wondering how this can be true given the current state of the MMO marketplace?

There's a few moving pieces here that would take way too long to unpack. For the sake of brevity, I'll say that there's a lot of confusion in the MMO discussion sphere about what even constitutes a "casual player." Because of this I think a lot of ideas get labeled as either "too casual" or "too hardcore" when the better way to describe the suggestions is more or less appreciable for respective audiences. One of the biggest issues that MMOs face is that because of the massive time sink they often represent, their players want to get their everything game fix from that one game. They don't want to play a FPS, a MOBA, a RTS and a traditional single player RPG game. They want all that, plus more in their MMO that pay a monthly subscription to access. It's a weird sense of entitlement which results in all sorts of contradictory suggestions being thrown around and everybody using the altar of casual accessibility as the benchmark for whether their idea is worth considering. Personally, I'm of the opinion that WoW has kind of etched itself out a pretty solid niche in the market and they should instead focus on doing the things it does well even better instead of trying to appease all video game players ever (and as is often the case on forums, the vocal ex-WoW players who're mad the game is no longer in whatever idealized state they have in their mind).

[Echo of Soul]

thats because you dont deserve high end gear for doing braindead content,how is this a difficult or unfair concept to grasp?you do difficult stuff,you get good gear,if you dont do difficult stuff.....why do you need that gear?

That's exactly what I said, you don't deserve it. Why the fuck are you arguing with me about it???

[MoanaLisa]

WoW also dies if casual players dictate every facet of the game's design.

I don't think anyone is really asking for that. They're asking for non-raiders to get something that allows them to progress throughout the length of a patch/expansion. In other words, ditch the raid-or-die template that they've been using for an expansion which pushes players into content they may not wish to do to achieve any progression and move to raid-or-do-something-you-enjoy-more. As a business proposition it's just common sense. While they're at it, stop putting professions mats in raids/dungeons or create something where a more casual less-skilled player can get into the instance alone to 1) see it and 2) collect mats while defeating some enemies that won't take 117 pulls to defeat.

[Relapses]

I don't think anyone is really asking for that. They're asking for non-raiders to get something that allows them to progress throughout the length of a patch/expansion. In other words, ditch the raid-or-die template that they've been using for an expansion which pushes players into content they may not wish to do to achieve any progression and move to raid-or-do-something-you-enjoy-more. As a business proposition it's just common sense.

At some point, though, you have to admit that maybe raid-or-die is the paradigm which WoW lives or dies on. We've had almost two decades of varying degrees of success, why is it now that the game needs to change? I guess what I'm asking is whether this is a game development problem or an audience problem? Are people expecting too much from WoW or is it WoW's job to appease all of these players? I don't think there's an easy answer to this.

While they're at it, stop putting professions mats in raids/dungeons or create something where a more casual less-skilled player can get into the instance alone to 1) see it and 2) collect mats while defeating some enemies that won't take 117 pulls to defeat.

If I recall correctly, they specifically mentioned that in one their recent DF profession updates. They don't want to force people into content they don't want to do.

[Royru]

At some point, though, you have to admit that maybe raid-or-die is the paradigm which WoW lives or dies on. We've had almost two decades of varying degrees of success, why is it now that the game needs to change? I guess what I'm asking is whether this is a game development problem or an audience problem? Are people expecting too much from WoW or is it WoW's job to appease all of these players? I don't think there's an easy answer to this.



If I recall correctly, they specifically mentioned that in one their recent DF profession updates. They don't want to force people into content they don't want to do.

I honestly do think there’s a fairly easy answer to this. The version of wow that was objectively more popular, the raid or die mentality wasn’t there. (And chill I’m not talking about badges).

I don’t even think it’s an audience problem either. People always like to say “hey mmos just aren’t that great anymore they aren’t fun”, when mmos like final fantasy have been out since the time period where wow was crushing it and it’s hitting record numbers TODAY.

And there are games like destiny 2 which has always been SUPER casual friendly at its very core and it has always held a steady, healthy amount of players. So much so it’s company just got bought for almost 4(?) billion dollars and that’s all they have is destiny2.

Players are always looking to come back to wow, expansions have MASSIVE player counts. People want to play this game. But once they hit end level and see what it takes to progress they jsut quit. Yeah sure, the raid or die mentality might be keeping it ‘alive’ by the people currently playing.

But I truly 100% do think if they made this closer to a casual mmo game like it use to be, it would hit a massive boom again. But that’s just what I think. The toxic mentality of not wanting casuals to have gear is what has been and it is what will eventually kill this game. Games like destiny 2 or final fantasy are surviving and thriving so well because no one thinks about that. They just worry about getting their own progress and they are working toward finishing their own accomplishments and that’s how it should be.

[MoanaLisa]

At some point, though, you have to admit that maybe raid-or-die is the paradigm which WoW lives or dies on. We've had almost two decades of varying degrees of success, why is it now that the game needs to change?

Because the solution to improve the business and create a more satisfying game for everyone may not be the same as it was 18 years ago.

More than most, Ion's statements to the effect that the next expansion will lean into that sort of thing is a reason for me to be cautiously optimistic. I think Ion is a smart guy but I'm not certain that he or any of the people he has running teams understands just what that might be. They understand how to create busy work but every time I seem them doing something that may verge on greatness, they pull it back or load it down with limitations. So we'll wait and see how that goes.

Another reason for optimism is that all of the very old guard (Kaplan et al) are gone.

[Diaphin]

Expert and raid roulettes need a variety fix, but acting like the endgame loop for FF14 is just doing roulettes isn't really honest.

It predominantly is though for casual and solo players until the alliance raid comes out and even that is basically lfr with the difficulty afterwards immediately jumping to around heroic levels.

None of this is a substantive and well designed endgame loop. Professions, dungeons, battlegrounds, etc. etc. is all tossed aside and you are given one activity to grind out. WoW is a big game with lots of things to do. The fact that it struggles incorporating those things meaningfully into the endgame loop is embarrassing.

Battlegrounds also offer honor gear though and isn't the problem here that people whine about not wanting to play the dungeon content that offers an endgame loop? With Professions you are right currently but blizz already announced to fix that. But generally wow offers plenty of optionsfor solo and casual players to reach around normal raid levels of itemlevel with some heroic level pieces. Thats not that much worse than the quality of gear you would get in ff14 if we would put both side by side and there are more means to obtain it. The only quality fully unobtainable for casuals is mythic level gear outside of BoEs

[

[Caprias]

Because the solution to improve the business and create a more satisfying game for everyone may not be the same as it was 18 years ago.

More than most, Ion's statements to the effect that the next expansion will lean into that sort of thing is a reason for me to be cautiously optimistic. I think Ion is a smart guy but I'm not certain that he or any of the people he has running teams understands just what that might be. They understand how to create busy work but every time I seem them doing something that may verge on greatness, they pull it back or load it down with limitations. So we'll wait and see how that goes.

Another reason for optimism is that all of the very old guard (Kaplan et al) are gone.

But so far I also fear that Ion is a very careful guy who would never abandon the current vertical progression formula even if it turns out as you said that it might be time after 2 decades since players and demographics change.

If that's even needed (and by that I mean something more drastic than "more progression for casual/open world/etc. players) which I wouldn't know.

[Echo of Soul]

I honestly do think there’s a fairly easy answer to this. The version of wow that was objectively more popular, the raid or die mentality wasn’t there. (And chill I’m not talking about badges).

I don’t even think it’s an audience problem either. People always like to say “hey mmos just aren’t that great anymore they aren’t fun”, when mmos like final fantasy have been out since the time period where wow was crushing it and it’s hitting record numbers TODAY.

And there are games like destiny 2 which has always been SUPER casual friendly at its very core and it has always held a steady, healthy amount of players. So much so it’s company just got bought for almost 4(?) billion dollars and that’s all they have is destiny2.

Players are always looking to come back to wow, expansions have MASSIVE player counts. People want to play this game. But once they hit end level and see what it takes to progress they jsut quit. Yeah sure, the raid or die mentality might be keeping it ‘alive’ by the people currently playing.

But I truly 100% do think if they made this closer to a casual mmo game like it use to be, it would hit a massive boom again. But that’s just what I think. The toxic mentality of not wanting casuals to have gear is what has been and it is what will eventually kill this game. Games like destiny 2 or final fantasy are surviving and thriving so well because no one thinks about that. They just worry about getting their own progress and they are working toward finishing their own accomplishments and that’s how it should be.

Then MORE people should leave and play those games instead. WoW is a hardcore MMO and if you don't like it you should leave. You're not allowed to get the same loot as those of us who can play hardcore, if you could then WE would leave and the game would die.

[KrayZ33]

Then MORE people should leave and play those games instead. WoW is a hardcore MMO and if you don't like it you should leave. You're not allowed to get the same loot as those of us who can play hardcore, if you could then WE would leave and the game would die.

I'd argue the opposite 100%.

I like that your argument is "you don't deserve it" or "I won't allow it", even though it's fucking nothing to you (or me) if people get gear.
No one is taking YOUR content or YOUR gear away bruh. It's literally just about a currency or 2 being added to the game.
If you are so "hardcore" what is it to you?
Do you fear that you are "forced" to be "even more hardcore" to farm the new currency?

Maybe you should leave WoW then you filthy casual, leave it to the hardcore playerbase keeping this game alive bruh.

You should really not use the term "us" in any way whatsoever in that regard.

[zysis]

So you got carried in all the hard content during Wrath. Good for you!~ Shall we talk about Muru now? Do I need to mention that only 23 guilds cleared Naxx in vanilla? What about BWL and the impossible C'thun @ 20% for progression raiders? Or do your views only apply to your own limited experience in the game? You don't speak for everyone, that's a VERY entitled view. It's just you. 17 year old game and some of us are still here. We want hard content. Really hard. If you can't cope, then get your bindings in order and progress just like the game intends.

- - - Updated - - -

Then MORE people should leave and play those games instead. WoW is a hardcore MMO and if you don't like it you should leave. You're not allowed to get the same loot as those of us who can play hardcore, if you could then WE would leave and the game would die.

Nope. Wouldn't "die" at all. Wouldn't even miss you and your entitled view. It's not a hardcore MMO you pleb. Want hardcore? Go play UO, EQ or RO. I dare you. Keks like you prob think wow is super hard while in reality the ONLY reason it gained success was because it was a softcore, VERY softcore version of Everquest. Yes, it's an EQ clone. Hardcore MMO LOL

[Ermelloth]

I'd style the problem in a little different way.

Playing retail endgame on high difficulties is pretty unreal for a full-scale working adult having a family. Mythic stuff is designed for geeks and nolifers. Its great that few of those people manage to make money from it via Twitch and Yotube streams, advertisement, etc. But that's only a selected minority. Other mythic raiders still need to earn real money and fund their families, and considering how long does it take to kill a boss after 50 wipes or so and how many hours these people need to spend on high keys and raids to actually get it done, it interferes with RL way too much up to the point it becomes a second job.

Classic pretty much saved the game. With its moderate content difficulty it's much more accessible to 35-40 y.o. and older players.

[Royru]

Then MORE people should leave and play those games instead. WoW is a hardcore MMO and if you don't like it you should leave. You're not allowed to get the same loot as those of us who can play hardcore, if you could then WE would leave and the game would die.

Sweet heart…. Be honest with yourself… that’s what’s been happening. Wow isn’t doing so hot. Your “hardcore game” isn’t working. Period.

That suggestion sounded a lot more cool when wow wasn’t on life support trying to keep it going for just a little longer. Wow needs a change. There’s no more of this “just don’t play it”. We need a “let’s all play it”

[Vrinara]

Then MORE people should leave and play those games instead. WoW is a hardcore MMO and if you don't like it you should leave. You're not allowed to get the same loot as those of us who can play hardcore, if you could then WE would leave and the game would die.

Awww how cute. You think WoW is a Hardcore MMO. WoW has never been a hardcore mmo, it's as casual friendly as it gets lol

[potis]

Sweet heart…. Be honest with yourself… that’s what’s been happening. Wow isn’t doing so hot. Your “hardcore game” isn’t working. Period.

That suggestion sounded a lot more cool when wow wasn’t on life support trying to keep it going for just a little longer. Wow needs a change. There’s no more of this “just don’t play it”. We need a “let’s all play it”

Imagine being so clueless than when they announce highest profits in a decade from World of Warcraft last quarter cause there are 3 versions of it running, that somehow its on "life support" and not making money.

Imagine being so clueless, that claiming you "quit a game" after having paid the initial price and months of subscription, and probably tokens cause lets face it, most of you are against it but use it anyway cause you are terrible at the game, that somehow you are better from the person that actively plays all content

And in the end, we all know you are buying the next expansion and a ton of other things, throwing like 150$ in 2 months and then, failing at M+5 once more, then coming on here to complain.

Just dont play the game, it wont make any difference cause thats how they design the game, but you are too thick to understand the design of WoW is just to get you to buy the expansion and to keep you for a few months, they dont care as much after that, they know you are unsubbing, but you used to unsub after 1-2 months, now most of you take 5-6 months to unsub, whatever they are doing is more profitable.

But yes, lets pretend you know better.