How I Would Fix Drakthyr

[Supertoster]

The argument is that you're comparing non-equivalent things. We don't have playable Natherzims participating in raids or group play, and metamorphosis isn't a constant form.

The Dracthyr form, on the other hand, will be a constant form participating in group play.

And? What does it prove?
Nothing is playable until it is made to be playable. Where is an argument?

[Teriz]

And? What does it prove?
Nothing is playable until it is made to be playable. Where is an argument?

It proves that you can't use those two examples as some sort of precedent. We've never had a playable race as large and bulky as tauren with large wings and tails.

[Supertoster]

It proves that you can't use those two examples as some sort of precedent. We've never had a playable race as bulky as tauren with large wings and tails.

So what? Do you realize that everything new added to the game was... new and we've never had it before? It is a definition of being new...
Ah, whatever, you clearly don't understand how basic logic works, you just try to make arguments from random statements which make no sense.

[PenguinChan]

It proves that you can't use those two examples as some sort of precedent. We've never had a playable race as large and bulky as tauren with large wings and tails.

Havoc DH's in BfA do like to say hello with their 60% - 70% uptime and very long duration of their metamorphosis. It's not as long lasting now (But it's still quite quick), so I think it's fair to say there is some good idea of what they'll be like with giant ass DH's running around in fights.

[Magical Mudcrab]

While moving in flight along with the ability to perform their abilities in flight. That is an unprecedented ability in WoW, even if its a long cooldown. However, the way Holinka was describing it, it is HIGHLY unlikely to be a long cooldown. More to the point; Imagine a tauren sized character hovering with massive wings flapping right in your character's line of sight. That's a problem.

It is not a problem. Two or three people using this ability a couple times a fight is not going to break anything. I would advise you to either get into raiding or M+ before talking about this, as what you are suggesting is not going to impact anyone's gameplay.

What is a fundamentally stupid argument is the notion that raid and dungeon groups don't wipe on trash, and pretending that multiple large visual obstructions in tight or indoor spaces can't increase the chances of wiping on said trash.

People wipe on trash, but not for the reasons you think they do. People wipe on trash because they are negligent with mobs having synergistic mechanics, picking up too many mobs, or tanks using mobility to range healers. Groups don't wipe on trash because someone's model is blocking the way, and if they did then Demonology Warlocks wouldn't get invited to anything.

You do understand that wings stick out on either side of the central mass correct? Which means that when the wings open (which again is a consistent thing), the obstruction becomes larger and more distracting for the person trying to see past said obstruction. We also haven't talked about the Dracthyr's tail, which is also a visual obstruction.

Yes, and are anchored to where the shoulder blades would be closest to the spine on the character. Unless you think that literally everyone is demanding they be 3 or 4 times bigger, or that people want the wings to be significantly larger, their central mass is not a problem. Even the largest suggestion on the first page wouldn't constitute a major impediment as the wings are anchored near the spine and the wings aren't any larger (i.e.: at rest, the wings cover his central mass, in flight the wings will have a larger area covered than the central mass).

Considering that Blizzard created the Dracthyr BECAUSE of size concerns, your argument that size doesn't matter doesn't make much sense.

Ok, maybe you have a quote for this, where did they say that the Dracthyr were made so slim and will never make variants with thicker torsos, arms, etc., because of size concerns?

[Teriz]

Havoc DH's in BfA do like to say hello with their 60% - 70% uptime and very long duration of their metamorphosis. It's not as long lasting now (But it's still quite quick), so I think it's fair to say there is some good idea of what they'll be like with giant ass DH's running around in fights.

There’s a big difference between 60% and 100%.

There’s also a big difference between melee and range.

[Supertoster]

There’s a big difference between 60% and 100%.

There’s also a big difference between melee and range.

I just wanted to say that you will say something as dumb as this.
How predictable.
You just create non-existent problems and pretend that they do matter. While they don't.
DH meta is playable. Which means that male Nathrezim model fits to be playable as well. Which means that Dracthyr could use the same proportions as male Nathrezim model.
Period. You have nothing to prove it wrong without creating your own criterion of proof, which nobody cares about.

[Teriz]

I just wanted to say that you will say something as dumb as this.
How predictable.
You just create non-existent problems and pretend that they do matter. While they don't.
DH meta is playable. Which means that male Nathrezim model fits to be playable as well. Which means that Dracthyr could use the same proportions as male Nathrezim model.
Period. You have nothing to prove it wrong without creating your own criterion of proof, which nobody cares about.

DH meta isn’t a persistent form that’s up 100% of the time. Additionally, I’m pretty sure it isn’t larger than a Tauren, like a bulky dracthyr would be.

If Blizzard doesn’t incorporate a Bulky dracthyr (which is more than likely going to be the case), all the reasons I’ve mentioned in this thread would be reasons why.

[Supertoster]

DH meta isn’t a persistent form that’s up 100% of the time.

Which does not matter. It is your own made up criteria. No body cares about it.

Additionally, I’m pretty sure it isn’t larger than a Tauren, like a bulky dracthyr would be.

Again, you are the only one who compares it to Tauren for some magical reasons. Nobody cares about it.
Technically Nathrezim model is already playable. Is it possible to make Dracthyr to have similar proportions? Yes. Why? Because it is already playable.
It is either playable or not playable. Nobody cares about time. Stop pretending that somebody should agree with your own criteria based on nothing.

[PenguinChan]

DH meta isn’t a persistent form that’s up 100% of the time. Additionally, I’m pretty sure it isn’t larger than a Tauren, like a bulky dracthyr would be.

If Blizzard doesn’t incorporate a Bulky dracthyr (which is more than likely going to be the case), all the reasons I’ve mentioned in this thread would be reasons why.

...I don't get your rationale here. They already have obnoxiously large effects in the previews. They're already around Tauren size - and we have DH forms that rival Tauren sizes and either have really wide wings to push past that, or equally big 'n fat vengeance form. If they were happy to do it back then, and keep them at the size they are now (And encourage the ability spam), I don't believe they actually care about the visual obstruction argument for not having much bulkier Dracthyr (And we don't know how thick they'll get anyways - but easily not more than Tauren).

Reminder: You can turn the effect levels down in the settings if it's that big of a problem. Larger unit frames as well. There are options to deal with the spam in the game already - but y'know, this is an MMORPG that you are constantly around other players in groups of 5 or more. It's impossible to really control this outside of basic settings.

[Teriz]

Which does not matter. It is your own made up criteria. No body cares about it.

Again, you are the only one who compares it to Tauren for some magical reasons. Nobody cares about it.
Technically Nathrezim model is already playable. Is it possible to make Dracthyr to have similar proportions? Yes. Why? Because it is already playable.
It is either playable or not playable. Nobody cares about time. Stop pretending that somebody should agree with your own criteria based on nothing.

And like I said; If the Dracthyr doesn’t get a bulky looking model, the reason behind that decision are the reasons I outlined in this thread.

We’ll see soon enough.

[Atriel]

Senior Designer, possibly a lead on this "project", is a Transgender Furry.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PushinVerts
https://mobile.twitter.com/PushinVer...09346087112705
https://mobile.twitter.com/PushinVer...55720424460291

Your statement doesn't make any sense. You used one specific piece of art to try to pass the artist off as a furry when the majority of their work is humanoid drawings.

Comments like that, and the attacks on the Blizzard artist who designed the Dracthyr and Visage forms because they are trans, are very troubling and make me wonder where the hate for the new class/race really comes from.

Going back to Teriz's original statement following the thread of these comments, so much of the hate is most definitely derogatory defamation trying to make it seem like the artist shoe-horned their personal desire into the game. As if there weren't an entire team of designers and devs that agreed on this.

[Calfredd]

And like I said; If the Dracthyr doesn’t get a bulky looking model, the reason behind that decision are the reasons I outlined in this thread.

We’ll see soon enough.

No it wouldn't but you'd take credit for it regardless.

[Nymrohd]

Also maybe stop spamming the same three GIFs in every page?

[Teriz]

...I don't get your rationale here. They already have obnoxiously large effects in the previews. They're already around Tauren size - and we have DH forms that rival Tauren sizes and either have really wide wings to push past that, or equally big 'n fat vengeance form. If they were happy to do it back then, and keep them at the size they are now (And encourage the ability spam), I don't believe they actually care about the visual obstruction argument for not having much bulkier Dracthyr (And we don't know how thick they'll get anyways - but easily not more than Tauren).

Reminder: You can turn the effect levels down in the settings if it's that big of a problem. Larger unit frames as well. There are options to deal with the spam in the game already - but y'know, this is an MMORPG that you are constantly around other players in groups of 5 or more. It's impossible to really control this outside of basic settings.

They're possibly as tall or taller than Tauren, but their more slender frame may be viewed as less of a visual obstruction than a frame as wide and large as a Tauren.

Truth be told, I have no problem with a bulkier model if that's what Blizzard wants to do. I'm simply saying that what I outlined above may be the reason why they don't do it. That said, of the wants described in this thread, a bulkier model has the highest chance of occurring.

Full armor and Dracthyr being other classes? I don't see that happening at all.

[PenguinChan]

They're possibly as tall or taller than Tauren, but their more slender frame may be viewed as less of a visual obstruction than a frame as wide and large as a Tauren.

Truth be told, I have no problem with a bulkier model if that's what Blizzard wants to do. I'm simply saying that what I outlined above may be the reason why they don't do it. That said, of the wants described in this thread, a bulkier model has the highest chance of occurring.

Full armor and Dracthyr being other classes? I don't see that happening at all.

Male vengeance DH forms are damn near similar to Tauren, they just have better proportions. Their heads are even in the same position. Male DH forms are not slender in the slightest. Female DH forms are slender in comparison but still jacked as hell, especially the vengeance one. And while true, DH forms don’t wear armor, Tauren do and they’re the largest and thickest I imagine any playable race will get. Besides maybe Ogres if they ever become available. In this regard, bara levels of dragons aren’t infeasible. The real issue is the pride and arrogance the designers tend to have which will determine if they give us more body types. And time constraints, those Fuck over artists too.

Full base game armor won’t probably happen anytime soon. They’d have to match every single piece to their current bodies, which if they are going out of their way to make it all very customizable, WoW’s geosets are definitely not easily compatible for a more modern approach they’re probably taking with Dracthyr.

As for other classes, that comes down to Blizzard’s want to transfer animations over and if they really amuse the idea of dragons having access to generic classes and nothing special to them. My bets are on more body types over more classes or full base game armor.

[Stormxraven]

They seem pretty big already these guys, if people get what they want they'll be back on here a few months after launch complaining that they are too big and obstructive or that Blizzard are just recycling gargoyle model

[Supertoster]

And like I said; If the Dracthyr doesn’t get a bulky looking model, the reason behind that decision are the reasons I outlined in this thread.

We’ll see soon enough.

Dracthyr does not get a bulky model because of failed art-direction and lack of listening to feedback. Nothing else. Stop inventing non-existent rationale behind decisions. Your reasoning is a wishful thinking at best.

[Teriz]

Male vengeance DH forms are damn near similar to Tauren, they just have better proportions. Their heads are even in the same position. Male DH forms are not slender in the slightest. Female DH forms are slender in comparison but still jacked as hell, especially the vengeance one. And while true, DH forms don’t wear armor, Tauren do and they’re the largest and thickest I imagine any playable race will get.

Again, you're comparing a temporary form to a permanent form.

- - - Updated - - -

They seem pretty big already these guys, if people get what they want they'll be back on here a few months after launch complaining that they are too big and obstructive or that Blizzard are just recycling gargoyle model

Yep, exactly this.

- - - Updated - - -

Dracthyr does not get a bulky model because of failed art-direction and lack of listening to feedback. Nothing else. Stop inventing non-existent rationale behind decisions. Your reasoning is a wishful thinking at best.

How is it wishful thinking when what I'm talking about is exactly what we have now? If anything, desiring the Dracthyr to be massive, hulking creatures is the wishful thinking.

[Supertoster]

Again, you're comparing a temporary form to a permanent form.

This does not matter. The difference between something permanent and something with 1sec duration per minute is important. The difference between something permanent and something with non-static long duration, which theoretically could be close to 100% uptime - is not important.
It is either playable or not playable. Permanent or almost permanent - does not matter.

Yep, exactly this.

Size does not matter. Proportions matter. Size is scalable. Proportions are not. Making good proportions is more important, size can be scaled to fit gameplay requirements.

How is it wishful thinking when what I'm talking about is exactly what we have now?

Your reasoning is wishful thinking.

If anything, desiring the Dracthyr to be massive, hulking creatures is the wishful thinking.

It is called feedback. There is a demand to change a model. And this demand is high, because a lot of people dislike current design. You can lie that only minority demands this, but even a poll in this thread shows that only ~30% are actually happy with current design.
Also, the first reaction to new design was a lot of suggestions from artists (even professional ones, like Thunderbrush) to redesign it, which is a sign that current design is not good enough.
There are more talking about how to change Dracthyr than talking about how cool they are. There are more redesigns arts of Dracthyr than actual art of their current form.
If you like it - fine. But a lot of people don't like it and they don't care about reasoning why current version is supreme. Because for them it is not supreme at all.