Archimonde vs Denathrius

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Even if Denathrius was weaker, best not to underestimate the man who helped create the Natherzeim.

[darkoms]

For clarity, we actually had a lot of help when we beat Archimonde both times.
At Hyjal, we really weren't "killing" Archimonde so much as we were distracting him until Malfurion's plan was set into motion (i.e.: we were stopping him from taking the power of the World Tree until the wisps could detonate en masse).
On Draenor, the help we had wasn't visually indicated very well. During the fight we had Khadgar, Grommash, Durotan, and Yrel, as well as the the Frostwolf Clan, the Draenei, and some help from the mages of the Kirin Tor. This was only communicated after the fact and not throughout the fight.

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To be fair, The Legend of Odyn does make Ragnaros seem weaker than the Keepers (although, we know this was propagandized).


- Link

Even in this story, it takes 2 Keepers to defeat him.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Even in this story, it takes 2 Keepers to defeat him.

I understand that in reality Odyn and Tyr were probably not able to do so alone, but the story treats Ragnaros like he was a prized bear they were hunting for sport. If someone only read this story (and drank the cool aid), it comes off as Ragnaros being so insignificant that they're not taking him seriously and are instead fighting him for sport (with Ragnaros' fire, which is characterized as an attack, being so insignificant to Odyn that he wears it as a trophy).

[FuxieDK]

We wouldn't have beaten him if he was at Titan level.

It have been canonical stated that the Eternal Ones (Sire Denathrius et al) are Titan Power Level and Zovaal is Titan++ Power Level.

Sire Denathrius was many times more powerful than Argus, who was just a "hatching" Titan, but even Argus out powered Archimonde many any many times.

[Zardas]

Maybe I'm not entirely up to speed with SL lore, but as far as I remember, the Titans are the pantheon of Order while the Eternal Ones are the pantheon of death. So, wouldn't that make Denathrius one the powerlevel of a Titan (even if powerlevel is obviously not hierarchy-based) ? Making it much stronger (theoretically) than Archimonde, who's "only" a lieutenant of a member of a Pantheon of Order.

[darkoms]

It have been canonical stated that the Eternal Ones (Sire Denathrius et al) are Titan Power Level and Zovaal is Titan++ Power Level.

Sire Denathrius was many times more powerful than Argus, who was just a "hatching" Titan, but even Argus out powered Archimonde many any many times.

There so many mistakes...

Lead designer Morgan Day described the Eternal Ones as being on par with the titans.[16] Art director Ely Cannon described the Winter Queen as "something kind of right below [a titan]".[18] Game director Ion Hazzikostas said that the end boss of Shadowlands, Zovaal, needed to be "titan-level"[19] or "titan plus plus level", like Argus and N'Zoth for, respectively, Legion and Battle for Azeroth, implying he was being metaphorical rather than literal.[20]

Also Argus>>>>Archimonde

[VinceVega]

I don't think it is really... usefull to talk about "power levels" for characters.
This not an anime or pokemon.

The SL guys most have a specific job they are supposed to do in which they probably are supreme. But i doubt the winter queen was ever supposed to really fight. That doesn't make her weak just another... focus? Or Velen. he is not weak just has a different way to go about things. He would not let the BBEG even get to him. So there is no reason to compare them anyway.

Denathrius is supposed to help people repent. He was not supposed to field an army or fight with people directly.
Zovaal was a Judge. He did not fight. He controlled fates.

If it is just combat wise Archimonde would wipe the floor with nearly all wow characters. He was a supreme mage befor he joined the legion which made him even more powerfull. But that doesn't help him if his foes do not engange in a one on one fight.

[Sorshen]

It have been canonical stated that the Eternal Ones (Sire Denathrius et al) are Titan Power Level and Zovaal is Titan++ Power Level.

Sire Denathrius was many times more powerful than Argus, who was just a "hatching" Titan, but even Argus out powered Archimonde many any many times.

Lol, based on what we see in SL ingame cinematics, Argus would probably 1shot cleave all the covenant leaders then 1v1 the Jailer.

[Houle]

It have been canonical stated that the Eternal Ones (Sire Denathrius et al) are Titan Power Level and Zovaal is Titan++ Power Level.

Sire Denathrius was many times more powerful than Argus, who was just a "hatching" Titan, but even Argus out powered Archimonde many any many times.

Argus was literally so much above the EOs, he knocked the Arbiter out simply by coming into contact with her.
The EOs are titan-level only in terms of STATUS. They occupy the same rank in their respective cosmic force. In terms of raw power, the titans are so far above them, its not even funny anymore. Sargeras could step on Zovaal without even noticing.

On topic: could go either way, since we havent seen Denathrius do that much. Feat-wise, Archimonde has shown much more. But then again, the character Archimonde was created over two decades ago, while Denthrius is extremely new.

[Magical Mudcrab]

On topic: could go either way, since we havent seen Denathrius do that much. Feat-wise, Archimonde has shown much more. But then again, the character Archimonde was created over two decades ago, while Denthrius is extremely new.

Here's the thing that I think is very funny:
Zovaal was unable to hurt Azeroth without the Forge of Souls and the implements of the Scourge on Azeroth drilling into her and extracting azerite in Eternity's End. So he needs thousands of years of planning, other people to move his pawns in place, and then direct oversight of construction of his scheme for decades before he can destroy a world.
Archimonde was going to casually destroy Draenor with a meteor if we took too long to kill him during our assault on Hellfire Citadel. So Archimonde goes to a world and thinks "I'm gonna conjure a rock and destroy that shit".

It's just the funniest contrast to me. Titan++ at work there.

[darkoms]

Here's the thing that I think is very funny:
Zovaal was unable to hurt Azeroth without the Forge of Souls and the implements of the Scourge on Azeroth drilling into her and extracting azerite in Eternity's End. So he needs thousands of years of planning, other people to move his pawns in place, and then direct oversight of construction of his scheme for decades before he can destroy a world.
Archimonde was going to casually destroy Draenor with a meteor if we took too long to kill him during our assault on Hellfire Citadel. So Archimonde goes to a world and thinks "I'm gonna conjure a rock and destroy that shit".

It's just the funniest contrast to me. Titan++ at work there.

I still don't understand why people put this up as a super feat. It seems that no one understands how the cosmic forces work. Fel is the power of DESTRUCTION, of course its user will find it easier to cause DESTRUCTION than users of other powers. Arthas and Argus killed us and I'm guessing it's because they wield the power of Death (I think mortals are more vulnerable to such things) and not just because of their sheer power, while the likes of Archimonde focus on pure destruction. I'm tired of repeating this, but this is not a DBZ where the stronger you are in 1v1 combat, the more destruction you can cause. Archimonde can destroy Draenor, but can't break a weakened Ysera's spell, and a weakened Alexstrasza can easily break Archimonde's spell.



I'm not saying that Denatrius is stronger, I'm just saying that this is a strange comparison.

[bloodmoth13]

My vote is archimonde, he was all about power, i believe he was stronger than even kiljaedin.

The death pantheon feel like they are watcher tier, not titan tier. They dont feel anywhere close tbh.
As for being part of a pantheon factoring into it, chaos as far as we know doesnt have a pantheon, sargeras was from the pantheon of order not chaos, and there really havent being any super high tier demons. I think chaos by nature is to ... chaotic to have a proper heirarchy, which was why the titan of order came in and took charge and created a hierarchy.
If they did have a pantheon archimonde would be around second in charge, sargeras was stronger than all the titans together, archimonde was his second in command.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I still don't understand why people put this up as a super feat. It seems that no one understands how the cosmic forces work. Fel is the power of DESTRUCTION, of course its user will find it easier to cause DESTRUCTION than users of other powers. Arthas and Argus killed us and I'm guessing it's because they wield the power of Death (I think mortals are more vulnerable to such things) and not just because of their sheer power, while the likes of Archimonde focus on pure destruction. I'm tired of repeating this, but this is not a DBZ where the stronger you are in 1v1 combat, the more destruction you can cause. Archimonde can destroy Draenor, but can't break a weakened Ysera's spell, and a weakened Alexstrasza can easily break Archimonde's spell.

I'm not saying that Denatrius is stronger, I'm just saying that this is a strange comparison.

This is a vs. thread, the whole point is whether A can defeat B in a fight. If B has some boss C who is known to be stronger, and C is provably less powerful (i.e.: has less destructive capabilities, is a worse fighter, etc.) than A, then A is stronger than B. The intricacies of what each is capable of doing, such as unique abilities granted by their choice of power source (such as Fel or Death) or some inherent ability they have (like Lilian Voss), wont always have bearing on that kind of discussion. In the case of Zovaal vs. Archimonde it could if someone wanted to argue the domination magic angle, but that would likely not come to a conclusion and we would just revert back to feats of Archimonde vs. Denathrius. In my comment, I just find that in a universe where world destroying abilities are handed out like candy, the fact that Zovaal didn't get them is a bit funny.

[darkoms]

This is a vs. thread, the whole point is whether A can defeat B in a fight. If B has some boss C who is known to be stronger, and C is provably less powerful (i.e.: has less destructive capabilities, is a worse fighter, etc.) than A, then A is stronger than B. The intricacies of what each is capable of doing, such as unique abilities granted by their choice of power source (such as Fel or Death) or some inherent ability they have (like Lilian Voss), wont always have bearing on that kind of discussion. In the case of Zovaal vs. Archimonde it could if someone wanted to argue the domination magic angle, but that would likely not come to a conclusion and we would just revert back to feats of Archimonde vs. Denathrius. In my comment, I just find that in a universe where world destroying abilities are handed out like candy, the fact that Zovaal didn't get them is a bit funny.

I don't know if a random eredar was able to blow up the planet, but that's because the ritual suggests that the inner magic of the world turns against the world itself (Archimonde did the same with Dalaran) and the world is destroyed by its own power, not the power of the eredar. Illidan did this because he collapsed the portal by timing it right. Ner'zhul did it by accident with a bunch of artifacts and during a special state of the stars, doing a long ritual and even so, for the most part, the unstable energies of a large number of portals destroyed the world, not Ner'zhul's power. Outside of the Archimonde meteor and the ability of the Titans to destroy worlds simply because of their sheer size, I don't know who else is capable of such a thing, especially without the power of the Fel. For example, no old god can destroy the world, but each of them is much stronger than Archimonde.

[LordVargK]

Even if Denathrius was weaker, best not to underestimate the man who helped create the Natherzeim.

On that note: Why exactly did he do that?
Their mission was to sow chaos on Azeroth, destroy the arbiter and revive Argus. But what exactly was in for Denathrius? I'm still not quite sure, why he even helped the Jailer to begin with. Aside from the fact, that the Jailer absolutely wasn't trustworthy, Denathrius had very little to gain, had he? He already was an all powerful ruler of Revendreth. His Alliance with the Jailer would not really have granted him more power. And in the process of supporting the Jailer Denathrius weakend his realm, his source of power.
Creating the Nathrezim for this super omega level plan seemed... pointless. But maybe he was just getting bored and wanted to fuck shit up.

[Gigantique]

well the first archimonde we didnt even beat ourselves,some whiss blew him up

and the wod archi we beat with everyone and their granda helping,a bunch of heroes and both horde and draenei armies

IIRC the armies helped stave off Archimonde's reinforcements for the most part and didn't directly aid us in killing him. Kinda like Velen/Illidan being at the KJ fight in Tomb but not helping us defeat him directly.

[darkoms]

IIRC the armies helped stave off Archimonde's reinforcements for the most part and didn't directly aid us in killing him. Kinda like Velen/Illidan being at the KJ fight in Tomb but not helping us defeat him directly.

From a lore point of view, Illidan, Velen, and Khadgar actually helped kill him directly, as seen in the final cinematic.

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On that note: Why exactly did he do that?
Their mission was to sow chaos on Azeroth, destroy the arbiter and revive Argus. But what exactly was in for Denathrius? I'm still not quite sure, why he even helped the Jailer to begin with. Aside from the fact, that the Jailer absolutely wasn't trustworthy, Denathrius had very little to gain, had he? He already was an all powerful ruler of Revendreth. His Alliance with the Jailer would not really have granted him more power. And in the process of supporting the Jailer Denathrius weakend his realm, his source of power.
Creating the Nathrezim for this super omega level plan seemed... pointless. But maybe he was just getting bored and wanted to fuck shit up.

He wanted Death to conquer all other powers.

[LordVargK]

He wanted Death to conquer all other powers.

Did Denathrius wanted that? Or did the Jailer?
Because why would Denathrius even want that? Would that allow him to leave the Shadowlands (which he apparently could not)? Or what?

[Magical Mudcrab]

I don't know if a random eredar was able to blow up the planet, but that's because the ritual suggests that the inner magic of the world turns against the world itself (Archimonde did the same with Dalaran) and the world is destroyed by its own power, not the power of the eredar. Illidan did this because he collapsed the portal by timing it right. Ner'zhul did it by accident with a bunch of artifacts and during a special state of the stars, doing a long ritual and even so, for the most part, the unstable energies of a large number of portals destroyed the world, not Ner'zhul's power. Outside of the Archimonde meteor and the ability of the Titans to destroy worlds simply because of their sheer size, I don't know who else is capable of such a thing, especially without the power of the Fel. For example, no old god can destroy the world, but each of them is much stronger than Archimonde.

I'm assuming the ritual you're referring to is the one in Prophet's Lesson? If so, from the description it seems to be less due to inherent magic of the world or the warlock themselves, and more due to the runes and symbols themselves (i.e.: something like words of power that themselves have magic). Although, I don't think it's ever really been explained, though I think the idea of some symbols having inherent power (and if you used them carelessly, that power could backfire) would add some texture to the setting.

And the Light! He could feel it surrounding him, as strong as anywhere in Azeroth, pulsing and shining through the alien creatures.

The sky darkened. First to an angry red that invaded the amber skies like a premonition of doom. After a few moments, the color began to shift to an ever-more-nauseating shade of green. Flaring comets screamed from the diseased heavens and struck the earth, sending all the poor creatures scattering in panic. The comets stood up from their craters, towering and terrible, and began to rain down death with ruthless efficiency. A rip opened in the air near the prince, and a flood of horror spilled out: winged demons and alluring succubi wielding greenish-yellow fire and powerful magic, destroying everything in their path. After the dark army had finished its deployment, a gigantic form walked through the rift, and it looked too much like the draenei for the prince not to notice.

This last being leveled the rock sculptures around him, clearing a space where he could kneel in the dust made from his destruction and draw symbols of dread power with his clawed finger. When he finished, there was a moment of perfect quiet as the slaughter halted and the entire world waited in horrified stillness.

And then, an explosion.

The unleashed energies ripped the world's surface apart, and Anduin found himself crying out and throwing his arms up in terror, but the magics moved right through him without harm. The Legion marched back into the portal, returning to the dark nexus of the demons' dwelling, and in their wake was left... nothing. Nothing alive, at any rate. Even the wondrous rock formations—Anduin would never know if they were natural or carved by the alien life he'd witnessed—were no more. There was only ash and broken matter. Even the sky was clouded, no longer allowing a clear view of the four moons.

- Link

Regarding the ability to destroy worlds, there are many individuals who can do so. You have the Titans (as a given), the Void Lords (Pandemonius destroyed the Ethereal Homeworld), cosmic elementals (as demonstrated by Murmur), high ranking demons (Archimonde, and presumably Kil'jaeden), and the Aspects (Deathwing and Malygos both had the power to create these conditions because of their Aspect). It's also likely that any cosmic counterparts to forces that can manage these feats, such as the "Light Lords" or any possible "Chaos Lords", would be able to do so as well. Then, as you say, we have a large number of rituals that can have the same effect, including lesser known ones like the Darkstorm made by Xaraax (who, as an aside, was a Dreadlord who was planning on destroying Azeroth, which I guess was just another one of Zovaal's 5th dimensional chess moves), and we know that demonic portals frequently have an unfortunate side-effect of imploding (as seen by Illidan's destroying of Nathreza), which would probably imply that Legion generals like Portal Keeper Hasabel could also pull off something similar. Finally, you have the fact that many magical implements and facilities are known to have the same effect, such as the Forge of Souls, that was capable of killing Azeroth and is what Zovaal relied on, and the Forge of Origination, which could re-originate the planet (and I think reasonably it could be extrapolated that redirecting this power could likely also kill Azeroth).

[darkoms]

I'm assuming the ritual you're referring to is the one in Prophet's Lesson? If so, from the description it seems to be less due to inherent magic of the world or the warlock themselves, and more due to the runes and symbols themselves (i.e.: something like words of power that themselves have magic). Although, I don't think it's ever really been explained, though I think the idea of some symbols having inherent power (and if you used them carelessly, that power could backfire) would add some texture to the setting.


- Link

Regarding the ability to destroy worlds, there are many individuals who can do so. You have the Titans (as a given), the Void Lords (Pandemonius destroyed the Ethereal Homeworld), cosmic elementals (as demonstrated by Murmur), high ranking demons (Archimonde, and presumably Kil'jaeden), and the Aspects (Deathwing and Malygos both had the power to create these conditions because of their Aspect). It's also likely that any cosmic counterparts to forces that can manage these feats, such as the "Light Lords" or any possible "Chaos Lords", would be able to do so as well. Then, as you say, we have a large number of rituals that can have the same effect, including lesser known ones like the Darkstorm made by Xaraax (who, as an aside, was a Dreadlord who was planning on destroying Azeroth, which I guess was just another one of Zovaal's 5th dimensional chess moves), and we know that demonic portals frequently have an unfortunate side-effect of imploding (as seen by Illidan's destroying of Nathreza), which would probably imply that Legion generals like Portal Keeper Hasabel could also pull off something similar. Finally, you have the fact that many magical implements and facilities are known to have the same effect, such as the Forge of Souls, that was capable of killing Azeroth and is what Zovaal relied on, and the Forge of Origination, which could re-originate the planet (and I think reasonably it could be extrapolated that redirecting this power could likely also kill Azeroth).

The Chronicle mentions that Archimonde turned magic under Dalaran against the city itself, and due to the similarity of the rituals, it seems to me that this eredar (if not Archimonde) did the same


Pandemonius did this by opening a bunch of portals (as did Ner'zhul) and not by sheer strength, I completely forgot about the Mumbler, although he is some kind of unique creature, as you already noted Deathwing could only do this because of his unique strength Aspect (i.e. connection with the Elements, perhaps the second most destructive force after Filth) and even so he could only do this in the Maelstrom and after Nzot significantly strengthened it, I don’t think that Malygos could destroy the world, even if he claimed power Nexus, but the Chronicle says that his campaign to siphon magic from the planet caused natural disasters all over the planet and could even damage the world-soul of Azeroth.

Like I said, destruction is a Fel token (and to a lesser extent arcanes). It always seemed to me that the magic of Life and Death has more influence on mortal beings and their bodies, while Fel and Arcane have more influence on the objects of the material world. For example, Thrall survived an arcane blast from Jaina.




Where does it say that the Forge of Souls can kill Azeroth? Isn't the Forge of Origination powered by the power of Azeroth itself to re-originate the planet? We used this power to kill N'zoth.