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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Name one, one that actually has people playing it
    The majority of lost arks “raids” are 4 players.

    Most mmos biggest ‘party sizes’ are around 4-8 players

    Also eve and Albion didn’t have raids I’m not sure if they do now but they didn’t for the longest time. I’m sure people can for sure tell us more. GW2 never really focused on raids either.
    Last edited by Royru; 2022-05-11 at 11:37 PM.

  2. #702
    Blizzard already had the formula for raids down and it was good. I have no idea why they always feel the need to change systems when they are working just fine.

    While I do believe the game is so much easier than it has ever been and absolutely caters towards casuals, the changes to raiding hurt casual raiders the most. The most hardcore players will play mythic and the most casual players will play lfr or not raid at all. The third category is where most players are and that is what I would just call the casual raiders.

    I absolutely do not think it is a good thing for casual raiders to be split up between normal and heroic. This does nothing to give casual raiders more content but instead it splits them up so fewer of them get to do any raiding at all. Really what I am saying is that Mythic raid difficulty should never have been created. Heroic should have maintained itself as the most difficult mode. I don't even mind how difficult Mythic is, the name should just never have been used. Too many options can actually be a bad thing.
    Last edited by Nubpwn; 2022-05-11 at 11:35 PM.

  3. #703
    I hope Dragonflight has single boss raids that are akin to Onyxia's Lair, which feels like something we haven't seen for a while.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Polygons View Post
    I hope Dragonflight has single boss raids that are akin to Onyxia's Lair, which feels like something we haven't seen for a while.
    Those were seriously my favorite raids ever. Those were always the most laid back and just plain fun. Onyxia, obsidian sanctum, eye of eternity, etc. You go in, have fun with the raid for an hour, and you get your stuff and leave. The longer the raids are the more boring they are imo.

  5. #705
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    A few people in this thread seem to forget (or never knew) Everquest was a thing. Where all of the 'raids' were outdoor content, where massive guilds would fight each other for tag on bosses for loot, where all the rare drops were on very long (very very very long) timers that a plethora of people were waiting for, and you had to be lucky (Fuck off Lodi, at least I got your shell once).

    Massively in Massively Multiplayer Online means just that, lots of people. It doesn't matter if they're instanced or not, what does matter is how many can be in an open area (i.e. Social Hub Orgrimmar versus instantiated raid Orgrimmar)

    Also, Everquest started doing instantiated content with one of their expansions, The Lost Dungeons of Norrath, which was limited to a small group (if i remember correctly). I stopped playing after this expac, so I don't know if they continued that with the raiding scene.

    That being said, people saying WoW is hardcore is kind of a joke, compared to its predecessors (like the aforementioned EQ). Game's never been hardcore until you get to Mythic raiding and super high M+ keys.
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    This is the problem with most posts on here, you start off about something that could be a legit discussion or complain, but then you show you are clueless and its where it breaks down.

    In 3 weeks my main was getting 252 handed to him by the stupid pocopoc mechanic that i didnt even farm for, it just passively came from doing the 2-3 dailies and world quests and weekly world boss, so averagely 15mins/day.

    So you are telling me, you cant do a few quests over the course of 2 months which means you werent doing them daily, to get 252 spammed to you that skips all of LFR, and M+ and even up to M+7 in drops i think?

    Following that, if people were doing even a +8 they would be handed 262 gear by the buckets, and simply doing the valor farm, they would have even more items faster, so even with bad luck, with doing a +8 you would have like 10, 262 items.

    Plus the 2 x291 ilvl items, you would averagely be at 260-265 ilvl without even trying, to convert to tier sets.

    There is no gear gap, there is refusal to engage in what is basic content for anyone that plays for more than a year, unless you think because you are wearing 265 and the "big evil raiders" are wearing 275, thats the problem with performance.

    LFR is the best example of what i am talking about its full of 260 ilvl players, playing the class at 5% of their capabilities, somehow doing 3k DPS which isnt even possible, with 2 legendaries and 4 tiers, and then they log on mmo-champion to complain about the EVIL ELITIST RAIDERS.

    Not attacking you personally, but there is so much bullshit spewed on here that dont even reflect reality by 0.1%
    This. I've said it many times. The gap between casual and hardcore has never been smaller, and the number of things you can only get from raiding is smaller than ever. You couldn't get your MoP cloak or WoD ring without raiding. Now you can get two 291 legos without ever speaking to someoen else. You could never get tier except from raiding, now you can turn gear you got from soloing into it once every 4 days if you do a storyline.

    What is it that only raiders can get? Less than 20 ilvls over everyone else.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  7. #707
    I liked your reminder about context and comparing modern games with what they used to be. It reminded me of a game I used to play where the death penalty was unlimited XP loss the longer you stayed dead, players could loot your corpse for your actual equipment while you did the death run back to resurrect, AND players could prevent you from rezzing long enough that your character would lose all it's XP and get deleted from the game. Oh, and the monsters that killed you could sometimes feast on your corpse so when you did get back and rez you would immediately start dying from blood loss. The first time I died in WoW and made my death run I wondered what the point even was because it was such a tame consequence for being bad at the game.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Name one, one that actually has people playing it
    Sure, you made this FAR too easy - EVE.

    I believe star citizen is the same as well.

    This isn't even counting the many MMOs that do have instanced content, but no raids, at least not at all comparable to wows raids. Dungeons, yes, pvp, yes, but no raids.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-05-12 at 01:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Sure, you made this FAR too easy - EVE.

    I believe star citizen is the same as well.

    This isn't even counting the many MMOs that do have instanced content, but no raids, at least not at all comparable to wows raids. Dungeons, yes, pvp, yes, but no raids.
    Those are like flight simulators, not fantasy RPGs. Everyone who's whining about not getting good gear for doing trivial content should just go play one of those flight sims instead. Good gear belongs locked away safely behind hard content in MMORPGs, if you want it easier too fucking bad.
    Last edited by Echo of Soul; 2022-05-12 at 01:43 AM.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Those are like flight simulators, not fantasy RPGs. Everyone who's whining about not getting good gear for doing trivial content should just go play one of those flight sims instead. Good gear belongs locked away safely behind hard content in MMORPGs, if you want it easier too fucking bad.
    I gave you multiple MMOs that fit into your little criteria. It doesn't matter though because any of the disprove your point, flight SIM or not.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Polygons View Post
    I hope Dragonflight has single boss raids that are akin to Onyxia's Lair, which feels like something we haven't seen for a while.
    I think World Bosses have been their version of that for a while now.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    I think World Bosses have been their version of that for a while now.
    World bosses are lame in comparison to the atmosphere, originality, and story behind Onyxia's lair. World bosses don't enrich the game's fantasy, they're literally loot pinata's.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Odd I'm pretty sure that you can get 252 tier items via maxing out the cypher research and doing the creation catalyst thing. But yea, in general the ilv difference between ZM only (with double legendaries) should be around 255 vs ~280 for a CE Mythic raider.

    I would wager most players that raid in the heroic/mythic space would be around 270~280.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Time to invest in ultra wide 4k+ monitors
    Cypher gear isn't a valid target for making tier, so you'd have four 246 (sandworn gear turned tier if you don't get 259 from WB) and the rest being 252 cypher.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    You're never going to get that in WoW. The developers are clearly in the mindset that if you don't do premade content you don't deserve a satisfying long term gear progression curve. If that's something that's important to you then you should play FF14 instead. WoW is a game for hardcore players only.
    And what do you mean by "long term progression curve"? You guys always say things like this but never actual specify what you want so no matter what Blizzard does you can say you didn't get what you wanted. Do you want for open world and solo only players to eventually be able to upgrade their gear to mythic raid level through world quests, rares, and dailies? If so spit it out instead of being so vague.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Cypher gear isn't a valid target for making tier, so you'd have four 246 (sandworn gear turned tier if you don't get 259 from WB) and the rest being 252 cypher.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And what do you mean by "long term progression curve"? You guys always say things like this but never actual specify what you want so no matter what Blizzard does you can say you didn't get what you wanted. Do you want for open world and solo only players to eventually be able to upgrade their gear to mythic raid level through world quests, rares, and dailies? If so spit it out instead of being so vague.
    The answer to your question is of course “yes”, since the game offers no endgame progression besides upgrading your gear.

    I don’t log in since D3 S26 came out because apart from trying to get lucky finding a desert rare up for my offhand in ZM and creating other 2 set pieces with the Catalyst I have NOTHING else to do in-game as a “no instance, thanks” player.

    Blizzard is well aware since ages about what open world players want, they simply don’t care because creating challenging ow content is far more difficult than creating new 5 player maps.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by RAWRF View Post
    Yeah, great story.

    "Hey, there is a long hallway here, with weak dragons in it, then a big room, with a big weak dragon in it, and the story is that you slaughter them all."

    Great story. /boggle
    Going into a dragon's lair is boring, you're right, we should stick with 12 boss raids

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    edit : if Normal mode was the highest difficulty level, people would just play M+ for the infinite challenge. Going back to dumbing down stuff isn't helping anyone in my opinion.
    That's wrong. Most people only play for the loot and just do whatever is the easier/fastest way to get it. Most people play m+ because it's easily puggable and gives mich better rewards compared to raids for less effort/commitement. If world quests gave mythic ilvl gear, people would do those instead.

    Most people don't even reach a decent level of challenge in game. KSM is done by around 5% of the playerbase and the great majority of m+ runs stop at 15 because it's what you need to get the best rewards.

    WoW has challenging stuff but only a handful of players are actually interested in it. MoP challenge modes were fun as hell but since they didn't give gear they were largely ignored.

    That's just how it is, people pay for boosts cause they don't even care mich about playing, they are in a looo where they want ti get stuff done and move on.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Those are like flight simulators, not fantasy RPGs. Everyone who's whining about not getting good gear for doing trivial content should just go play one of those flight sims instead. Good gear belongs locked away safely behind hard content in MMORPGs, if you want it easier too fucking bad.
    ah yes, the good old "i didnt expect anyone to be able to so easily answer my question, so ill just totally change the criteria and make it more challenging". Nice try buddy, but no - take the L.

    Someone said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    No, there are plenty of MMO's that do not have raids. That's not what it means at all.
    And you responded with THIS challenge:

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Name one, one that actually has people playing it
    I named 2 - one is a space mmo based mostly on space combat, the other has space flight, but also has a full FPS combat component (which you entirely ignore)

    Just accept your challenge was answered without hesitation, and you were wrong, then move on. Its really not a big deal - being wrong doesnt hurt you.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-05-12 at 06:13 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  18. #718
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    That's wrong. Most people only play for the loot and just do whatever is the easier/fastest way to get it. Most people play m+ because it's easily puggable and gives mich better rewards compared to raids for less effort/commitement. If world quests gave mythic ilvl gear, people would do those instead.
    Perhaps. I'm going to assume that acquiring anything close to that level of gear from world content would take much, much longer to accomplish. Like 2-3 months longer. Maybe people would hate that but not everyone would. The idea is based more on "everything you do in the game" gives you something so every time you play you will progress in some way. It's not so different from people objecting to grinds except that people could choose the content they want to do and avoid the content they don't care for. Making everything you do in the game count for something can't be a bad thing. The "reward" for doing things would be based around difficulty. So given some target number raids would certainly give more than world quests, a lot more. But if you were persistent enough you could save up and get whatever you want from some vendor doing the content you prefer.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-05-12 at 06:12 AM.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Making everything you do in the game count for something can't be a bad thing.
    It absolutely can if it then becomes a laundry list of activities that min/maxers (or anyone for that matter) need to complete to keep up with other players. If you can get 800X doing the raid, and only 200X doing WQ - MANY players will absolutely be getting 1000X. We both know that non-group palyers complain that they feel forced to group to get upgrades, you also know that raiders dont like having to farm WQ or any other mindless content to maxx their toon out either.

    For raiders, even beginners, there is a clear progression path - start with LFR, move into Normal, heroic, and eventually mythic. they dont HAVE to move through the difficulties, but its there. If they want to raid, raiding provides them great gear and upgrades that make them more powerful in raids.

    Currently, the same cannot be said with world content, BUT, whenever i bring up the following suggestion, open world players dont think its good enough: My idea has always been to allow people whos focus is open world content to move through the difficulties as well - start with WQ, but also world bosses, elite WQ, covenant style quest chains etc ---BUT--- and this is where we lose most ppl who claim they "just want meaningful progression" - the gear only boosts stats in the open world. You get set bonuses too though - reduced hearth time, instant mounting, faster mount speeds, greatly increased healing while out of combat etc.

    I believe WQ gear should cap out at normal raids - if they want to raid, thats MORE than enough to get them started - they can start in normal raids and already be OP. I want EVERYONE to have a clear progression path ahead of them in their chosen gameplay style/loop, but i do NOT want Mythic gear aquired by spamming WQ for 1 day, 1 month, or 1 year.

    One system they have tried previously is having the difficulty of mobs and the rewards scale with your ilvl - the problem with that, is its just tedious - for most players, if not all, WQ content is completely brain dead and extremely easy, so it really just......stays really easy. I do accept though that having truly challenging WQ is not the right way to go, as suddenly you have some players in a position where they feel they have to group up, or simply find it too hard, and i dont want that either.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-05-12 at 06:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    The answer to your question is of course “yes”, since the game offers no endgame progression besides upgrading your gear.

    I don’t log in since D3 S26 came out because apart from trying to get lucky finding a desert rare up for my offhand in ZM and creating other 2 set pieces with the Catalyst I have NOTHING else to do in-game as a “no instance, thanks” player.

    Blizzard is well aware since ages about what open world players want, they simply don’t care because creating challenging ow content is far more difficult than creating new 5 player maps.
    As your first sentence, what do you think raiding and keys IS besides upgrading your gear.

    As for the rest, congrats. Hitting the end of your progression path for a patch is not a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with being done and quitting. What I do see is wrong is coming into a multi player game and expecting to get the best of the best from soloing. No. This isn't a single player game. That should be reserved for people who do stuff with other people. Open world stuff is more generous than it's ever been. You can get your legos without raiding that before Legion was a complete impossibility. You can get conduits up to normal raid tier from reputation. You can get normal raid tier gear from chests. You can make tier without even looking at the raid, something that's never been done before.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

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