A technology-themed expansion could have worked

[Ielenia]

No, you're moving goalposts, because you said that all hints for the next expansion were confirmation bias. Which is why Tricerion responded the way he did.

Context. We were talking about your wild claims of "hints" that weren't "hints". Wrathion is a hint. A throw-away mount from two expansions ago is not a hint. A throw-away pet from a non-canon in-game event is not a hint.

Maybe you should take your own advice?

You're the one who keeps bringing that stuff, I'm just responding to your nonsense.

[Moonrage]

Maybe it would be fun for some people, but not for me. I've always disliked technology in fantasy settings. It just doesn't quite work. Which is why i very much dislike SL after patch 9.2. Finding out all covenant leaders, even ones that are heavily inspired by real world folklore and mythology like the Winter Queen and Denathrius, are just machines was such a let down. It really killed the fae and vampire thing for me.

[Alduin]

Maybe it would be fun for some people, but not for me. I've always disliked technology in fantasy settings. It just doesn't quite work. Which is why i very much dislike SL after patch 9.2. Finding out all covenant leaders, even ones that are heavily inspired by real world folklore and mythology like the Winter Queen and Denathrius, are just machines was such a let down. It really killed the fae and vampire thing for me.

yeah Blizzard has a thing for de-mystification... it's kinda sad. Not everything needs an explaination in the "greater schemes of the universe". Still most of this doesn't even convince because they hastly patch it together with little to no regards to (even the current) lore. Would love to seem them explore their mythical creatures deeper into the background lore. And there is still a lot of mythical background Blizzard could explore.
But then again to counter the mythological aspects it requires some exploration of the real world. It's interesting to see that those aspects are handled better in e.g. Hearthstone than in WoW....

[Dzonathan]

No. Stop trying to shoehorn in Tinkers. Take the hint, it ain’t happening.

It will once we have Kezan/Undermine expansion.
Your anti-Tinker attitude is same as when it was with Demon Hunters back in the day.
Deal with it, it's going to happen.

[Diaphin]

It will once we have Kezan/Undermine expansion.
Your anti-Tinker attitude is same as when it was with Demon Hunters back in the day.
Deal with it, it's going to happen.

The Anti-Demon Hunter Attitude was mostly based on the fact that at the time, the class was considered too similar to Warlocks and Rogues, especially since Metamorphosis, the signature ability of the Demon Hunter, had become a core mechanic to the demonology warlock, the concept itself was always very popular and Illidan besindes Arthas the most iconic character of the franchise.

Tinkers on the other hand have a rather niche fanbase of gnome and goblin fans, not the mass appeal that characters like Arthas and Illidan whom the hero classes emulated had.

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wdym?

IIRC Mechagon was extremely well received, possibily the best "island" type they added, even though it was side content to Nazjatar.

Wasn't Mechagons gameplay mechanics well received while the junkyard setting received a rather mixed reception with many not really enjoying it?

[Th3Scourge]

Take the hint, no one outside of some fringe minority on a fringe minority fan site gives a fuck about tinkers

Get over it

[Dzonathan]

The Anti-Demon Hunter Attitude was mostly based on the fact that at the time, the class was considered too similar to Warlocks and Rogues, especially since Metamorphosis, the signature ability of the Demon Hunter, had become a core mechanic to the demonology warlock, the concept itself was always very popular and Illidan besindes Arthas the most iconic character of the franchise.

Tinkers on the other hand have a rather niche fanbase of gnome and goblin fans, not the mass appeal that characters like Arthas and Illidan whom the hero classes emulated had.

And Tinker is too similar to engineering. That didn't stopped blizz from making an entire Island and mega dungeons about Mecha-gnomes.
The very same theme could've been exhausted on creating a Tinker class.

Popularity doesn't have that much of a deciding factor on what Blizz implements in the game.
Or are you going to try to convince me that there has been a long going outcry for Dragon Race all these years?
Haven't heard a pipsqueak about it so either it somehow eluded me or popularity didn't matter.
Yeah... dragon popularity probably didn't matter. We still getting Dragon race anyway even though hardly anyone asked for it.

Also Goblins and Gnomes have a very high appeal. If they didn't then Goblin and Gnomes expansion for Hearthstone wouldn't happen.

What a weird conundrum huh? Goblin and Gnomes are schrödinger popular where they are too niche enough to justify a class but popular enough to justify an entire expansion in Hearthstone. How strange. You know what else also had niche popularity? Classic servers. Look where we are now.

Mark my words. Tinker class is going to happen.
It's gonna happen just as Classic happened.
It's gonna happen just as Demon Hunters happened.

[Segus1992]

Warcraft dragons are one of the blandest parts of the setting and one of the most meh ideas to base an expansion around.

I would have been down for a steampunk expansion. Give me a steampunk castle/city like Lindblum.

No thanks, keep that shit in final fantasy where it belongs. I haven't been impressed by the setting/story of Dragonflight yet, but I think one of the few worse ways to go would be steampunk/tinker.

[Diaphin]

And Tinker is too similar to engineering. That didn't stopped blizz from making an entire Island and mega dungeons about Mecha-gnomes.
The very same theme could've been exhausted on creating a Tinker class.

The problem of the Tinker is that the class would be too much based on Goblins and Gnomes which are not that popular pure whimsical comic relief races, so the appeal aesthetically would be rather niche. Hell, Monks weren't that popular or anticipated back when MoP was released and the class wasn't even that whimsical, yet the connection with the originally more comedic Pandaren race clearly dragged it down, especially if we compare it to the wide hypes classes like Demon Hunters and Death Knights created, who both play more into the series and epic aspects of the franchise

Popularity doesn't have that much of a deciding factor on what Blizz implements in the game.
Or are you going to try to convince me that there has been a long going outcry for Dragon Race all these years?
Haven't heard a pipsqueak about it so either it somehow eluded me or popularity didn't matter.
Yeah... dragon popularity probably didn't matter. We still getting Dragon race anyway even though hardly anyone asked for it.

Actually, the idea of a dragon based class had been rather popular across multiple forums, especially if we consider that it isn't based on any WC3 hero, which before had been the rule when it comes to newly released classes. And Dragons are a rather popular aspect of the franchise. When it comes to Goblins and Gnomes though, it isn't just their lack of popularity among players, its also that they don't even tend to be that popular among the devs themselves. Mechagon was the first piece of Gnome focussed content ever released since the Gnomeragan event and even then, it was side content, which stands true which basically all storylines focussed on Gnomes and Goblins. Its always comedic side content, so thats kind of the spot we can assume Goblins and Gnomes to have for the WoW Franchise, comic relief but never the main attraction.

Also Goblins and Gnomes have a very high appeal. If they didn't then Goblin and Gnomes expansion for Hearthstone wouldn't happen.

Hearthstone has an entirely different dev team and is inheritly build around being a more cutesy and comedic version of the warcraft setting, so it doesn't tells us anything about the main setting and WoWs development, which is build around a more epic high fantasy appeal.

What a weird conundrum huh? Goblin and Gnomes are schrödinger popular where they are too niche enough to justify a class but popular enough to justify an entire expansion in Hearthstone. How strange. You know what else also had niche popularity? Classic servers. Look where we are now.

Not really, Hearthstone is an entirely different game with entirely different devs which has an entirely different tone and aesthetic to World of Warcraft.

[qutoe]Mark my words. Tinker class is going to happen.
It's gonna happen just as Classic happened.
It's gonna happen just as Demon Hunters happened.[/QUOTE]

Not really. And please stop deluding yourself that any larger percentage of the player base wants World of Warcraft to turn into a Looney Toons Cartoon. Thats the problem with Goblins and Gnomes, you can't even build an entirely Expansion around it that isn't just slapstick comedy.

[Teriz]

The problem of the Tinker is that the class would be too much based on Goblins and Gnomes which are not that popular pure whimsical comic relief races, so the appeal aesthetically would be rather niche. Hell, Monks weren't that popular or anticipated back when MoP was released and the class wasn't even that whimsical, yet the connection with the originally more comedic Pandaren race clearly dragged it down, especially if we compare it to the wide hypes classes like Demon Hunters and Death Knights created, who both play more into the series and epic aspects of the franchise

You really can't use their current level of popularity as an argument against them when Blizzard just released an entirely new race that no one has ever heard of before in WoW lore, and attached it exclusively to a new class.

Also Undermine is one of the major lore locations in Warcraft. Like Dragon Isles, it was planned in Vanilla WoW, and unlike Dragon Isles which was planned as merely a raid, Undermine was originally planned as a continent.

You have the lore, the races, the class with original abilities, the heroes that are this class, and even a possible location for their origination to take place. There's truly zero reason not to introduce this class into WoW at some point in the future.

[Dzonathan]

The problem of the Tinker is that the class would be too much based on Goblins and Gnomes which are not that popular pure whimsical comic relief races, so the appeal aesthetically would be rather niche. Hell, Monks weren't that popular or anticipated back when MoP was released and the class wasn't even that whimsical, yet the connection with the originally more comedic Pandaren race clearly dragged it down, especially if we compare it to the wide hypes classes like Demon Hunters and Death Knights created, who both play more into the series and epic aspects of the franchise

None of that matter.
A class doesn't need to be popular to be valid.

Actually, the idea of a dragon based class had been rather popular across multiple forums, especially if we consider that it isn't based on any WC3 hero, which before had been the rule when it comes to newly released classes. And Dragons are a rather popular aspect of the franchise. When it comes to Goblins and Gnomes though, it isn't just their lack of popularity among players, its also that they don't even tend to be that popular among the devs themselves. Mechagon was the first piece of Gnome focussed content ever released since the Gnomeragan event and even then, it was side content, which stands true which basically all storylines focussed on Gnomes and Goblins. Its always comedic side content, so thats kind of the spot we can assume Goblins and Gnomes to have for the WoW Franchise, comic relief but never the main attraction.

None of that matters.
A class doesn't need to be serious to be valid.

Hearthstone has an entirely different dev team and is inheritly build around being a more cutesy and comedic version of the warcraft setting, so it doesn't tells us anything about the main setting and WoWs development, which is build around a more epic high fantasy appeal.

WoW epic high fantasy? No.
WoW never nailed that kind of atmosphere.

For starters it has toony aesthethics.
You cant take that seriously.

Each expansion has at least one or two shit quests.
WotLK has one in Fjord and one in Grizzly Hills.
You cant take that seriously.

The entire rework of Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms leveling zone are:
- one huge pop culture refference (Touhou Goblins in Silithus)
- outright silliness (The Day Deathwing came in Badlands)
- self-aware mockery (Welcome to the Machine in Hilsbrad).
You cant take that seriously.

And if you're going to try to tell me that it's ok for leveling to be lulzy because raiding is where the serious story telling happens that I'd like to remind you of Blackwing Descent.

And this isn't just old work either.
One of quests in Tiragarde Sound has you escorting a drunkard.
You cant take that seriously.

The Exile's Reach has silly gnome/goblin neck-copter and the Alliance NPC teaches you how to act like an Ogre.
You cant take that seriously.

WoW was never an epic high fantasy game.
It likes to pretend that it does but anyone who's been around the block for over a decade knows its a dieselpunk frat comedy placed in medieval where plot is written on the spot. Not that it should surprise anyone because levity and gaming goes well together.

Not really, Hearthstone is an entirely different game with entirely different devs which has an entirely different tone and aesthetic to World of Warcraft.

Hearthstone is honest WoW.

Not really. And please stop deluding yourself that any larger percentage of the player base wants World of Warcraft to turn into a Looney Toons Cartoon. Thats the problem with Goblins and Gnomes, you can't even build an entirely Expansion around it that isn't just slapstick comedy.

WoW has always been looney toons cartoon.

[Alduin]

To be honest - I liked the whole sillyness of the Goblin starter zone, the chaotic quests in Ratchet, Gadgetzan or Booty Bay (not so much about Everlook). Area 52 was a great fit (Goblins to harness the chaotic energies).
And the Dr. Boom expansion in Hearthstone - well it's plain and simple fun.

And if we take the "everything has to be dead serious" approach - whats the origin of Dracthyr? Deathwing combining mortal and dragon essence.. like a breeding ground (?). We haven't seen Deathwing experimenting on humans/mortals anywhere especitally not during Cataclysm where he experiment a lot to great the ultimate Dragonflight. Even the Drakonid/Dragonspawn originis are kinda silly - "side effect of hanging out with dragons".

[Triceron]

Each expansion has at least one or two shit quests.
WotLK has one in Fjord and one in Grizzly Hills.
You cant take that seriously.

The entire rework of Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms leveling zone are:
- one huge pop culture refference (Touhou Goblins in Silithus)
- outright silliness (The Day Deathwing came in Badlands)
- self-aware mockery (Welcome to the Machine in Hilsbrad).
You cant take that seriously.

Comic relief is great in moderation, not so much when it becomes everpresent.

Look at Uldum and how people had bad reactions to the overwhelming amount of Harrison Jones parody quests. All of the cool Halls of zorigination build up and story gets overshadowed by the comic relief. When we look back at Uldum as a zone and what it amounts to in retrospect, it's stigmatized as being the 'Harrison Jones' zone.

Technology for an expansion theme would be fine, as long as Blizzard doesn't make it too much of an overbraring presence throughout the expansion.

Mechagon iss a good example of just enough comic relief content and setting, even though people also expressed not being fond of the Junkyard parts of it. So comic relief in moderation would be fine.

[Gaidax]

I mean they could, but I just don't think there is enough meat and potatoes to carry whole expansion on that.

IMO, Dragon expansion is most definitely the better idea than mecha expansion, if they'd want to get back to the roots a bit.

[Teriz]

I mean they could, but I just don't think there is enough meat and potatoes to carry whole expansion on that.

IMO, Dragon expansion is most definitely the better idea than mecha expansion, if they'd want to get back to the roots a bit.

To be fair, Undermine has the potential to be far more interesting than the Dragon Isles. Dragon Isles hook is primordial landscapes and proto dragons. Sort of a “Land of the Lost” theme. Undermine is a massive underground metropolis ruled by various Goblin trade princes who control wealthy and powerful merchant fleets. You also have an influential Tinker Union who work for various trade organizations, and do benign stuff like building infrastructure and other advancements, and horrific stuff like experimenting on trolls and hobgoblins.

You can do a lot with that.

[cparle87]

I remember a time where warcraft was pretty much only about Humans and Orcs.. and maybe some technology / construction style they brought. Atleast by the second game you had a lot of technological advanced units like
- demonolition squads
- flying machines/zepplines
- a lot of navy stuff (that Blizzard didn't explore until WoD .. heck how did they build the gunships..)

But in good faith: If I want to see 10 people struggle for a hour and a half, shouting at each other and sometimes being kinda successful .. I play football.

We had ships and zeppelins since the beginning of WoW, they're how we got from one continent to another without portals. We had gunships as early as Wrath. Not having a player controlled ship-based minigame doesn't mean we didn't have navy stuff.

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To be fair, Undermine has the potential to be far more interesting than the Dragon Isles. Dragon Isles hook is primordial landscapes and proto dragons. Sort of a “Land of the Lost” theme. Undermine is a massive underground metropolis ruled by various Goblin trade princes who control wealthy and powerful merchant fleets. You also have an influential Tinker Union who work for various trade organizations, and do benign stuff like building infrastructure and other advancements, and horrific stuff like experimenting on trolls and hobgoblins.

You can do a lot with that.

Add to it we've already done the primeval land of the lost thing a few times, such as Un'goro in vanilla and Sholazar in Wrath.

[Teriz]

Add to it we've already done the primeval land of the lost thing a few times, such as Un'goro in vanilla and Sholazar in Wrath.

That’s true as well.

Another interesting theme that could arise from an Undermine expansion is undersea/Captain Nemo theme, as shown in the latest Hearthstone expansion. There are some wonderful tech designs in it, and it’s linked to Azshara who is a potential big bad in the future.

[cparle87]

That’s true as well.

Another interesting theme that could arise from an Undermine expansion is undersea/Captain Nemo theme, as shown in the latest Hearthstone expansion. There are some wonderful tech designs in it, and it’s linked to Azshara who is a potential big bad in the future.

I'm just worried about it a bit. We always hoped for an Emerald Dream expansion, only for it to be just a single small raid. Nazjatar was hyped up since the WC3 novels and it was rather underwhelming. Then it was N'zoth and Ny'alotha come and gone in one patch, not even a whole expansion. BFA, particularly Tiragarde, dipped a little into the pirate motif. I'm worried Blizz will consider that enough and we'll never get an Undermine/South Seas/pirate expansion.

[Triceron]

I'm just worried about it a bit. We always hoped for an Emerald Dream expansion, only for it to be just a single small raid. Nazjatar was hyped up since the WC3 novels and it was rather underwhelming. Then it was N'zoth and Ny'alotha come and gone in one patch, not even a whole expansion. BFA, particularly Tiragarde, dipped a little into the pirate motif. I'm worried Blizz will consider that enough and we'll never get an Undermine/South Seas/pirate expansion.

I always hoped for an Emerald Dream expansion, something like tapping into the whole 'Blueprint of Azeroth before civilization happened' as a way to help mend some of the bad shit that happened in Cataclysm. But yeah, they just turned the place into a Raid zone for Legion, and called it a day.

Not even sure if we'll get a chance to revisit in the future really. Seems like they'd just make it into a mid-tier patch zone like a Nazjatar or Mechagon if they were to do it today.

[PsychoSe7eN]

Dragonflight's goal is "a return to Azeroth," bringing more grounded themes and getting us away from the endless existential nightmares. I think a tech-themed expansion could serve the purpose just as well as Dragonflight. This also has the potential to introduce some sort of Tinker (engineer, machinist) class to the game, which I believe a better fit for the ranged only, mail-wearing class design intention. Also, the Undermine and possible underworld of Azeroth, in both a metaphorical and literal sense. Criminals and caves, technologies and trade, Titan facilities, Old Gods, Azerite, Nerubians, Drog'bar, the Black Dragonflight for all you dragon nerds, Earth elementals and let's not forget: Goblins and Gnomes and all the zaniness those two races bring with them.

Anyone with me here?

No

/10 chars