Mannoroth vs Lich King Arthas

[Enter Name Here]

So Tyrion is also stronger than Illidan? Well, the guy who blew up the Primal Naaru and stopped Turalyon's blow with his bare hand?

if being stronger than LK arthas directly translates to being stronger than illidan, then yes, of course.

[darkoms]

if being stronger than LK arthas directly translates to being stronger than illidan, then yes, of course.

Amazing logic, realy

[Enter Name Here]

Amazing logic, realy

i know, right? those adventurers were able to beat illidan long before that but got killed by LK arthas. then this chad of a paladin comes up and showed him who's boss in a single strike AND revived the whole crew. now that's a powerlevel far beyond 9000

but please, stay on topic

[darkoms]

i know, right? those adventurers were able to beat illidan long before that but got killed by LK arthas. then this chad of a paladin comes up and showed him who's boss in a single strike AND revived the whole crew. now that's a powerlevel far beyond 9000

but please, stay on topic

Read my post above in which I described what actually happened during the battle with Illidan. And the heroes were resurrected by Terenas, not Tirion.

[Enter Name Here]

And the heroes were resurrected by Terenas, not Tirion.

who was freed from the blade because of tirions heroic act. so still partly his credit.

[ArenaDk]

Can you clarify what you mean by "plot magic from Frostmourne", as this seems to be in direct opposition to how the fight is described in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King? In most media, the connection between Arthas and Frostmourne is considered special, and I don't recall Frostmourne doing anything on its own. Illidan lost because he left himself open and there's nothing more to say. Arrogance is a weakness, and if you are beaten because of it you don't get to fall back on arguments of strength (i.e.: you can be as strong as you want, but if you have a character flaw that impacts your ability to win fights, you don't get to discount those losses).

That said, this whole rabbit hole that you guys have gone down is entirely pointless. Comparing Arthas as he arrives at Icecrown to Illidan doesn't even accurately represent their current standing. By all metrics, Illidan was a better fighter than Arthas during that encounter, with the equalizing factor being character flaws that Illidan had. However, when comparing the Arthas being talked about (i.e.: Lich King Arthas) and Illidan, the argument basically ends when you point out that the same people who handily defeated Illidan were immediately and without recourse killed outright by the Lich King. Illidan as we saw him in Black Temple, and probably as he was in Legion since I don't think he got any power amplification, is substantially weaker than the Lich King Arthas and is not going to be a favorable metric when comparing "power level".

That said, people need to keep in mind that Illidan vs. Arthas has no bearing on this thread. We already know that Mannoroth is likely substantially stronger than Illidan and is a bad measuring stick in this case. Looking at the Well of Eternity dungeon, Mannoroth fought Illidan, Tyrande, and several heroes who would go on to kill Deathwing while only receiving meager help from some fodder demons, and did so while controlling the magic of the Well of Eternity by himself to keep the Burning Legion's portal open, with our "win" condition there is just momentarily breaking his concentration. It bears repeating that Mannoroth, while in the midst of controlling the magic of Azeroth to maintain one of the most powerful portals to ever exist in the Warcraft universe, one which Sargeras himself could travel through, was still capable of fighting two of the most powerful heroes in Warcraft and a handful of the most influential adventurers to ever exist and all we managed to do was break his concentration. We can further this by pointing to Magtheridon and Azgoth, two Pit Lords who are substantially below Mannoroth in rank (implying they are also weaker), and Illidan was unable to deal with either of these Pit Lords by himself (Azgoth was even going to kill Illidan before Kor'vas saved him). But we then get to the problem where Mannoroth is constantly treated as a joke by Blizzard, and is killed off quickly and is portrayed as almost being trivial to deal with ("lmao, big burny boy killed by one angry green lad").

Mannoroth should, without a doubt, take this fight easily, but it's going to be hard to convince players of this.

1. you should read the book again. Two times it’s mentioned on how frostmourne on its own will strikes illidan ( who yes was taunting). But also to use a other famous example. You wouldn’t say Gilgamesh is weaker then Emiya even though he lost because of his arrogance?

The thing is , yes in wc3 it was fine, illidan got over confident , and with the help of Nerzhul and the special circumstances frostmourne a deep connection and all , it strikes illidan on its own will.

But in the book it does it two times , with two times it Being the deciding factor with Arthas not having any hand in it ?!

2. let’s not compare Black temple illidan to Lich king Arthas. In the illidan book is revealed we fought on the top of the black temple a illidan at its death door who was fully out of mana and stamina and he still won.

[kaelix1]

If you bothered to read the post I was replying to, you would see that it was written that Arthas defeated Illidan and I'm just clarifying exactly how Arthas won. But why burden yourself and read extra words, right?

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Will affect what? His armor was pierced by the bone of Galakrond, his helmet Sylvanas broke with her bare hands, if you think that Arthas will withstand a blow to the head of the Gorehowl, then I do not know how to help you

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I don't know, the Lich King is smarter than Lei Shen, but he would lose in a 1x1 battle

So you are comparing a sylvanas full on jailer juice that was task to broke the helm with a orc throwing a damn axe?

Prove me that that axe is stronger then galakrond bone

[darkoms]

1. you should read the book again. Two times it’s mentioned on how frostmourne on its own will strikes illidan ( who yes was taunting). But also to use a other famous example. You wouldn’t say Gilgamesh is weaker then Emiya even though he lost because of his arrogance?

The thing is , yes in wc3 it was fine, illidan got over confident , and with the help of Nerzhul and the special circumstances frostmourne a deep connection and all , it strikes illidan on its own will.

But in the book it does it two times , with two times it Being the deciding factor with Arthas not having any hand in it ?!

2. let’s not compare Black temple illidan to Lich king Arthas. In the illidan book is revealed we fought on the top of the black temple a illidan at its death door who was fully out of mana and stamina and he still won.

As far as I remember, it is mentioned that Frostmourne began to whisper something to Arthas and because of this, he had the strength to take Frostmourne and hit Illidan

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So you are comparing a sylvanas full on jailer juice that was task to broke the helm with a orc throwing a damn axe?

Prove me that that axe is stronger then galakrond bone

No, I'm talking about Sylvanas doing it with her bare hands

I'm sorry, I was wrong. Trag did not have time to hit Arthas with Galakrond's bone, he hit him with his ax and left a crack on the armor (although the armor itself was restored)

[Tarba]

1. Malfurion killed Saurfang's elite guards in a few seconds (no magic, just his physical strength), and also in bear form was fast enough to kill Horde soldiers without them even noticing him. But having received an ax in the back, he almost died. That doesn't make him a bad fighter. Context matters
2. Tichondrius is hardly a fighter, rather a manipulator. Illidan himself noted that defeating Magtheridon was not difficult because Magtheridon had become lazy and had not fought anyone for a long time.
3. Illidan almost burned him alive and when he came to finish him off, Arthas struck. If he wanted to kill him with magic, Arthas couldn't do anything. Illidan was a jerk, but he was clearly much more powerful.
4. Because this isn't going to be a direct fight, you can't really say that the rogue is stronger than Azshara. It just points to her mortality. She might as well choke on her wine or have a statue fall on her while she can't see. In direct combat, Azshara will simply place a magical shield that the rogue cannot penetrate. I ask you again, if only victory is important, and not context, does this mean that Tirion is stronger than the Lich King, Illidan and Mannoroth?

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So, Tirion>Lich King?

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1. Mannoroth lost a duel against Grom. No particular context here.
2. Tichondrius was strong. Way stronger than illidan pre guldan's skull. Weaker than Manoroth in a simple duel I guess. But you don't get his position without being a powerhouse. Maghteridon was still powerfull else he would not be able to keep his throne and Illidan completely surclassed him.
3. If Illidan did not kill him with magic maybe it was because he couldn't. Eyebeam was on cooldown so he went back and got smashed. Also he allready got a cut before during the fight. It was not a complete overpowering situation. He was overcocky that's all. Also Arthas was allready tired of previous battles, and still not the ligh king.
4. All I mean is you can be as powerfull as you want, you can lose in those kind of battles if you make a wrong move.
Both could have died, but Arthas was the winner of the fight. And then he got way stronger.

Tyrion defeated the lich king twice. Once on holly land, and once in icecrom. In icecrom Tyrion could have been killed by Arthas. But Arthas had to take care of the team of the greatest champions of azeroth and wanted him for later. Still Tyrion managed to take him offguard and attacked him with the one greatest weapon ever to hurt the lich king. The lich king is obiously stronger than Tyrion, but Tyrion can kill him. And he did.
Power level means shit. As we saw with Mannoroth/Grom and Lich King/Tyrion.

[darkoms]

1. Mannoroth lost a duel against Grom. No particular context here.
2. Tichondrius was strong. Way stronger than illidan pre guldan's skull. Weaker than Manoroth in a simple duel I guess. But you don't get his position without being a powerhouse. Maghteridon was still powerfull else he would not be able to keep his throne and Illidan completely surclassed him.
3. If Illidan did not kill him with magic maybe it was because he couldn't. Eyebeam was on cooldown so he went back and got smashed. Also he allready got a cut before during the fight. It was not a complete overpowering situation. He was overcocky that's all. Also Arthas was allready tired of previous battles, and still not the ligh king.
4. All I mean is you can be as powerfull as you want, you can lose in those kind of battles if you make a wrong move.
Both could have died, but Arthas was the winner of the fight. And then he got way stronger.

Tyrion defeated the lich king twice. Once on holly land, and once in icecrom. In icecrom Tyrion could have been killed by Arthas. But Arthas had to take care of the team of the greatest champions of azeroth and wanted him for later. Still Tyrion managed to take him offguard and attacked him with the one greatest weapon ever to hurt the lich king. The lich king is obiously stronger than Tyrion, but Tyrion can kill him. And he did.
Power level means shit. As we saw with Mannoroth/Grom and Lich King/Tyrion.

1. Only it was not a duel. In the first case he did not expect Grommash to attack, in the second case he was distracted by other orcs and an iron star, by your logic Malfurion lost the duel to Saurfang.
2. We have no idea the difference in power between them, especially since Hulk Highmountain defeated Tichondrius 1v1 (unless, of course, the tauren telling the story exaggerated his role in that battle). It is not difficult to hold the throne if there are no rivals. And Illidan himself noted that Magtheridon simply became too lazy because he had not fought in a long time.
3. No, he just burned his Arthas and came up to finish him off personally (apparently, for epicness or because it is more pleasant for him). Arthas couldn't do anything. He got cut during the fight when they were fighting in close combat and he was very arrogant. Once Arthas wounded him, Illidan began to take the fight a little more seriously and unleashed his true power, transforming into a demon and starting to burn Arthas. Ner'zhul gave away almost all of his remaining Arthas power and Arthas himself felt stronger than ever before, so he was actually stronger than his normal state.
4. Yes, that's why we consider options when both opponents take the fight seriously. What you're trying to say is that the Lich King is actually more powerful than Mannoroth because he was never killed by an orc with an axe.




What exactly are you talking about? About Illidan? Again, Illidan lost in battle, but he was much stronger. If Illidan had fought harder, he would have won.



So you admit that context is important? You said earlier that the main thing is victory.

[Viconia]

Power level dick-measuring contests are pointless when, in the end, everyone can die from a good sucker punch. Such was the case with Mannoroth and X'era.

[kaelix1]

No, I'm talking about Sylvanas doing it with her bare hands

I'm sorry, I was wrong. Trag did not have time to hit Arthas with Galakrond's bone, he hit him with his ax and left a crack on the armor (although the armor itself was restored)

You forgot to mention the most important part, sylvanas was full empower by jailer with the task to broke the helm, the fact the sylvanas broke the helm, bare hand or not on those circumstance is irrelevant for what I asked you

[darkoms]

You forgot to mention the most important part, sylvanas was full empower by jailer with the task to broke the helm, the fact the sylvanas broke the helm, bare hand or not on those circumstance is irrelevant for what I asked you

And the Gorehowl was enhanced with the hearts of 6 legendary gronns. I mean, I just doubt that Sylvanas has more power in her hands than Grommash's axe.

[Aresk]

Based strictly off lore, I'd give it to Mannoroth. LK Arthas mostly just fought humanoids and rarely anything he couldn't raise. He doesn't have the capability of issuing a permanent death to Mannoroth without leaving the safety of Icecrown, and he's never really successfully left Icecrown (with Wrathgate and Light's Hope both showing Arthas forced to retreat). LK may kill Mannoroth 9 times out of 10, but Mannoroth has the ability to just keep throwing himself at Arthas.

Maghteridon was still powerfull else he would not be able to keep his throne and Illidan completely surclassed him.

Illidan also was supported by Akama, Kael'thas, and Vashj when he attacked Magtheridan. We see in the demon hunter cinematic from the Warden dungeon quest that Illidan almost loses to some other pit lord if not for the interference from the other demon hunters he brought with him. Given Mannoroth is allegedly the greatest pit lord, I find it suspect that Illidan could best him 1v1, and Illidan literally trained to fight demons.

[kaelix1]

And the Gorehowl was enhanced with the hearts of 6 legendary gronns. I mean, I just doubt that Sylvanas has more power in her hands than Grommash's axe.

Empower by Jailer with the task of actually breaking the helm? you bet your ass

[Nynax]

Eh, I find these "versus" type threads to mostly amount to fluff and/or NPC favoritism since we have precious little canon information on relative NPC power levels or tiers, and these types of matchups in WoW are highly contextual and circumstantial, with one party or another usually having an "in" or secret weapon of some kind to tip the scales in their favor, depending on the story being told.

That being said, it would be nice to keep it as on-topic and relevant as possible.

Lol, I'll never forget this Star Trek vs Star Wars conversation and one person was like a "Super Star Destroyer is massive and has 5,000 turbo lasers, so it obviously wins." Then the Star Trek fan comes in like "well AcTuaLLy the Enterprise shields can absorb 50 Billion terajoules and a turbo laser is only 6,000 terajoules so one Enterprise would beat a Super Star Destroyer easily."

[darkoms]

Empower by Jailer with the task of actually breaking the helm? you bet your ass

What is the task here? Does it give some additional buff or what? Do you really think Sylvanas' bare hands are stronger than Grommash's axe?

[funcik]

You can argue endlessly, but remember that everything is possible in this fantasy universe.
1) It is possible to kill Mannoroth by mortal orc.
2) It is possible to injure a titan by mortal orc.
4) It is possible to kill the demigod Cenarius by mortal orc.
5) It is possible to kill the Lich King by mortal human.
Etc
Everything depends on the situation.
It's easier to ask the developers to rank ierarchy the power of ALL Warcraft characters than to try to find the answer in a forum about the winner in duels. Even in mortal kombat, Striker can defeat Raiden.

[Aucald]

Lol, I'll never forget this Star Trek vs Star Wars conversation and one person was like a "Super Star Destroyer is massive and has 5,000 turbo lasers, so it obviously wins." Then the Star Trek fan comes in like "well AcTuaLLy the Enterprise shields can absorb 50 Billion terajoules and a turbo laser is only 6,000 terajoules so one Enterprise would beat a Super Star Destroyer easily."

My first thought is to ask where exactly those figure comes from - but then knowing those two fandoms, I'm sure there's material out there that could support any conceivable position either of them made.

[Rockefellah]

Mannoroth was killed by an Orc.

Illidan is a superhuman Night Elf who can fly.

Arthas beat Illidan.

Arthas > Illidan >>> Grommash > Mannoroth.

Also Arthas one shotted an entire raid party of the world's most powerful warriors (why he didn't he stroll into Stormwind/Orgrimmar and do that from the beginning of Wrath, blame the writers).

He didn't because his human side kept control of a court style kingdom, including how relations between kingdoms work.