Why does wow's community come off as so entitled?

[Beet]

It’s been like this for awhile OP. You are correct in other games you get laid out for being so entitled. Shit in WoW you used to as well. It wasn’t until Cata when things changed. People were so upset that heroics were actually a challenge to do again so they whined and whined until they all got nerfed and were no longer fun. And if you said something about them being entitled you’d get the label of an elitist.

[mysticx]

No I play for fun, what's fun to me is timing the key. How is it self-centered to waste everyone's time including theirs ? If you just want to finish the key, feel free to post a "weekly no leavers". I'm never rude towards others in keys, and we'll invite the best fit. The lower the key level the less specific we are about who we pick. Running sub 10s we just take whoever posts first. But when we're doing 20s and up, if we need XYZ spec/covenant/role, we'll wait till we get one. If my time or enjoyment isn't important, theirs isn't either, you can't have it both ways.

That's what i dislike about mythic+: It puts the "I hate being excluded for playing the spec i enjoy" and the "I want to finish this dungeon race on time" groups at odds, and they both have a good point, i think it's bad design (Or bad spec balance, to be more specific) that these two things are apparently mutually exclusive.

[Coldkil]

That's what i dislike about mythic+: It puts the "I hate being excluded for playing the spec i enjoy" and the "I want to finish this dungeon race on time" groups at odds, and they both have a good point, i think it's bad design (Or bad spec balance, to be more specific) that these two things are apparently mutually exclusive.

You cannot delete meta from the game, and it's mostly a player issue. Blizzard can't do nothing about the fact people believe you can complete a 15 in time only with the best classes, when it's actually a skill problem. Makes for sure the experience worse for a lot of people.

[potis]

That's what i dislike about mythic+: It puts the "I hate being excluded for playing the spec i enjoy" and the "I want to finish this dungeon race on time" groups at odds, and they both have a good point, i think it's bad design (Or bad spec balance, to be more specific) that these two things are apparently mutually exclusive.

There are no odds, all these problem exist cause of dumb unskilled humans, M+ or Blizzard arent to blame.

It had been said multiple times before, Blizzard cant fix stupid.

"BUT ECHO AND METHOD USED THIS TACTIC FOR THEIR WORLD FIRST +30, THEREFOR FOR MY +5 I WILL DO THE SAME".

Now how do you explain to this waste of space, that a +5 can be completed with Nathria Gear if you arent a complete waste of space of a player?

Dont blame tools because the community is bad.

98/100 times if we need to pug someone for alt runs, like +8-15s we pick the Bloodlust class if we dont have any and rarely the covenant class, cause it doesnt matter, just press your buttons and it will be completed.

[Nymrohd]

You cannot delete meta from the game, and it's mostly a player issue. Blizzard can't do nothing about the fact people believe you can complete a 15 in time only with the best classes, when it's actually a skill problem. Makes for sure the experience worse for a lot of people.

M+ is definitely problematic as far as meta goes though. Having a challenging mode of the game with only 5 slots when you have 36 (soon 38) specs is likely to end up problematic. However part of the problem could be solved with tuning. When it comes to tanks and healers the meta ones are often complete outliers but even the top dps can be completely out of range from everyone else.
Problem is they cannot tune separate for dungeons and the rest of pve like they can do with PvP. There ARE solutions to this (they could do dungeon-specific gear progression that works best in dungeons and tune up and down different specs by buffing their respect dungeon tier?)
Ultimately the idea seems to be that everything past +15 does nor provide progression so it does not need to be balanced. As long as everyone can complete +15s (and everyone can), they don't need to care for higher difficulties. Which is not at all correct ofc; it'd be like saying PvP only needs to be balanced up to 1800 rating.

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Simply because many of their players simply play no instanced content with strangers.

Then maybe they should meet people in game so they can play instanced content with people they know?

Blizzard needs to revamp the guild system for cross-faction guilds anyway (I am quite sure guilds have hard coded parts that will make this extremely challenging but it has to happen). Imo they need to make it very rewarding to complete things with your guild. Yes Cata had insane guild perks that needed to go but the problem was not the perks it was guild leveling killing small guilds. Forget guild leveling. Instead make guild challenges extremely worthwhile. What if completing dungeons and raids while in a guild or community awarded extra gear?

[Soikona]

Your whole post was already addressed in the thread.

Path of least resistance is bad argument, because people should have the option to do what they enjoy doing, and not be worried about gear outcomes of that choice. Because of its granularity, there is no reason for m+ to be held at a level where it doesn't compete (from a skill perspective, not an organisational perspective) with raiding. If that means people pick the path of least resistance, it's because that's what they chose Todo, instead ofwhat they had to do, as is the case with raiding now.

If that leads to issues with class positions in the meta, it is no different to raids, and it is an issue that Blizzard needs fix - like always. If you have a discussion that goes "this content is good but some specs are too shit so we can't use it", the answer is to fix the shit specs, not avoid the content.

I agree, With the message but not the content. It’s the opposite for me, i have to do keys for some gear. I enjoyed raids.

[Coldkil]

M+ is definitely problematic as far as meta goes though. Having a challenging mode of the game with only 5 slots when you have 36 (soon 38) specs is likely to end up problematic. However part of the problem could be solved with tuning. When it comes to tanks and healers the meta ones are often complete outliers but even the top dps can be completely out of range from everyone else.
Problem is they cannot tune separate for dungeons and the rest of pve like they can do with PvP. There ARE solutions to this (they could do dungeon-specific gear progression that works best in dungeons and tune up and down different specs by buffing their respect dungeon tier?)
Ultimately the idea seems to be that everything past +15 does nor provide progression so it does not need to be balanced. As long as everyone can complete +15s (and everyone can), they don't need to care for higher difficulties. Which is not at all correct ofc; it'd be like saying PvP only needs to be balanced up to 1800 rating.

In the end it actually doesn't. There's some point to where balance is just going to be skewed no matter what - it's the same with the RWF and their raid comps, due to that people believe some classes are just better than others. And this leads to (usually bad) players to kick/not invite people to their pugs. I see it exactly the same as people requesting curve to do HC and 2500 rio to do 12s.

There's nothing really Blizzard can do other than balance things correctly and have a clear and straightforward communication about what is the target of their balance methods - something on the line "we balance classes so everyone can comfortably do 18s in time and after that it's out of our control". Would ease a little the pressure but won't solve the fact most people just look for the path of least resistance - which means optimal content with meta classes and so on.

[Nymrohd]

In the end it actually doesn't. There's some point to where balance is just going to be skewed no matter what - it's the same with the RWF and their raid comps, due to that people believe some classes are just better than others. And this leads to (usually bad) players to kick/not invite people to their pugs. I see it exactly the same as people requesting curve to do HC and 2500 rio to do 12s.

There's nothing really Blizzard can do other than balance things correctly and have a clear and straightforward communication about what is the target of their balance methods - something on the line "we balance classes so everyone can comfortably do 18s in time and after that it's out of our control". Would ease a little the pressure but won't solve the fact most people just look for the path of least resistance - which means optimal content with meta classes and so on.

Still the M+ meta is far tighter than the RWF one. You will often see 3-4 different tank specs represented in the top 5 kills and nearly all the healer specs as well. As for dps well over half the dps specs usually are represented in that tiny range of kills. There is often some class stacking but that depends on the raid (and when it comes to kills across bosses you usually have very wide representation, extreme class stacking is usually because of something particular in boss encounter design).

If you look at the M+ meta past 20 it is usually ONE tank, ONE healer and maybe 4-5 dps specs.

[Coldkil]

Still the M+ meta is far tighter than the RWF one. You will often see 3-4 different tank specs represented in the top 5 kills and nearly all the healer specs as well. As for dps well over half the dps specs usually are represented in that tiny range of kills. There is often some class stacking but that depends on the raid (and when it comes to kills across bosses you usually have very wide representation, extreme class stacking is usually because of something particular in boss encounter design).

If you look at the M+ meta past 20 it is usually ONE tank, ONE healer and maybe 4-5 dps specs.

Oh you're totally right on this - less people in the group = tighter meta. We have way too many specs in game imho, and to me specs should define roles when applicable. But that's just me. And in M+ not only the smaller group counts but also the fact it's a constantly scaling content so some classes due to their own mechanics and scaling are just flat out better than others.

But since meta isn't really avoidable i think a clear indication from Blizzard about what is the balance target would help a lot. I'm fine with a strict meta if it's mostly tied to content that doesn't relate to player power.

[Nymrohd]

Oh you're totally right on this - less people in the group = tighter meta. We have way too many specs in game imho, and to me specs should define roles when applicable. But that's just me. And in M+ not only the smaller group counts but also the fact it's a constantly scaling content so some classes due to their own mechanics and scaling are just flat out better than others.

But since meta isn't really avoidable i think a clear indication from Blizzard about what is the balance target would help a lot. I'm fine with a strict meta if it's mostly tied to content that doesn't relate to player power.

In reality the meta does not matter for the part of M+ that is progression; everyone can do +15s in time, you don't need the extra tank damage or the insane burst AoE so you can do larger pulls. But there should still be some effort to tune for higher keys (especially given the focus they give to Dungeons as esports). But ofc player perception is always problematic and meta specs effectively get a bonus to their rating as far as some people are concerned.

Still think they could make their lives more easy if there was a separate gear progression for Dungeons (so you'd have PvP, Raids and maybe even a World progression track).

[zysis]

I hate these groups so much, that I wish there would be some ingame penalty.

It actually affects me. Yes - I might be addicted to the game and a big supporter - but atleast make sense when you are suggesting something.

WoD is the direct result of them pleasing these groups. Creating systems is the direct results of the constant outcry of "nothing new". All of it damaged the game and the community itself.

Wait. What did WoD do? I know the purple-haired problem glass wearing types took over Blizz just after Legion pretty much, but what's wrong with WoD?

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In reality the meta does not matter for the part of M+ that is progression; everyone can do +15s in time, you don't need the extra tank damage or the insane burst AoE so you can do larger pulls. But there should still be some effort to tune for higher keys (especially given the focus they give to Dungeons as esports). But ofc player perception is always problematic and meta specs effectively get a bonus to their rating as far as some people are concerned.

Still think they could make their lives more easy if there was a separate gear progression for Dungeons (so you'd have PvP, Raids and maybe even a World progression track).

MoP did it right. It really did. The really good content wasn't about gear at all. PVP shouldn't be about gear either. But alas, Blizzard always listens to the most vocal minorities. The guys behind the changes to classes over the years should probably stick to climbing trees to get coconuts for tourists. It's despicable what some classes have become.

[Coldkil]

Still think they could make their lives more easy if there was a separate gear progression for Dungeons (so you'd have PvP, Raids and maybe even a World progression track).

That, or they could go the opposite route so the loot table is just one and shared. Raid drops will need to obviously be tailored better but this is a process that's already happening.

Either way is fine to me.

[Azharok]

In reality the meta does not matter for the part of M+ that is progression; everyone can do +15s in time, you don't need the extra tank damage or the insane burst AoE so you can do larger pulls. But there should still be some effort to tune for higher keys (especially given the focus they give to Dungeons as esports). But ofc player perception is always problematic and meta specs effectively get a bonus to their rating as far as some people are concerned.

Still think they could make their lives more easy if there was a separate gear progression for Dungeons (so you'd have PvP, Raids and maybe even a World progression track).

According to raiderio the meta only starts to kick in at 20s and up. Every class has at least ONE viable spec for 20s. But we are way past the progression cap of 15s at that point. Hell you could even stack classes or specs till 23s (as seen in the break the Class Clash) obviously classes without healer or tank specs aren't represented (for obvious reasons). But stacking 3 WW for a 24 is hardly ideal in any normal circumstance.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

In reality the meta does not matter for the part of M+ that is progression; everyone can do +15s in time, you don't need the extra tank damage or the insane burst AoE so you can do larger pulls. But there should still be some effort to tune for higher keys (especially given the focus they give to Dungeons as esports). But ofc player perception is always problematic and meta specs effectively get a bonus to their rating as far as some people are concerned.

Still think they could make their lives more easy if there was a separate gear progression for Dungeons (so you'd have PvP, Raids and maybe even a World progression track).

I really think that addressing outliers would fix most of this, aka nerfing the top and buffing the bottom. Like I can't believe that destro warlocks and survival hunters are just sitting there still dramatically better than everyone else.

Balance in the middle is usually decent!

(Meaning most specs are in there and similar)

[Azharok]

I really think that addressing outliers would fix most of this, aka nerfing the top and buffing the bottom. Like I can't believe that destro warlocks and survival hunters are just sitting there still dramatically better than everyone else.

Balance in the middle is usually decent!

(Meaning most specs are in there and similar)

Leave my SV alone, it was garbage when I started playing it, it's kinda OP now, don't touch it !

[Delekii]

The reality is for all the discussion of meta, it is only the outliers that actually matter to the vast majority of players. Claiming that the fact there is a meta is a reason to not do something is ludicrous. Specs just need to be competitive, they don't all need to be equally number one. The reason that the meta is so ingrained is that Blizzard will not balance iteratively enough. If they did small percentage buffs far more frequently, the "meta" would change too quickly for it to be a realistic concern to most players, and no individual class would be so far ahead or behind for it to be a problem.

The reason the "meta" is exists is because Blizzard balances in a way that not only creates it, but reinforces it. They won't make mid-tier changes because they don't want to invalidate people's progression, but the alternative is balancing far more often in far smaller increments so that no spec becomes invalidated at all.

[baskev]

Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content. You see people turning their noses at starting gear claiming that it isn't near best in slot and only more powerful then the first few tiers of difficult content...


I just don't get why... in most communities these players are laughed out but here I wouldn't say they are catered to but they come off as the norm.

Some are, some are not. Think it also has to do with the content. You are mostly talking about raid stuff here.
Most other games the raids or stuff are not big groups or this long.
A raid now is 20 people. A person not comming prepared screws the time over for 19 other people.

And dude ( or lady)......are you kidding me. Other games are not entiteld.
Hell in WoW people might say: you are not prepared ( :P), or geared enough.

In other games people curse at you, holler at you, scream etc. And there is way more toxic behavior there...

[HansOlo]

Wait. What did WoD do? I know the purple-haired problem glass wearing types took over Blizz just after Legion pretty much, but what's wrong with WoD?

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MoP did it right. It really did. The really good content wasn't about gear at all. PVP shouldn't be about gear either. But alas, Blizzard always listens to the most vocal minorities. The guys behind the changes to classes over the years should probably stick to climbing trees to get coconuts for tourists. It's despicable what some classes have become.

I prefer MoP over any expansions past this point. WoD presents the new era of them pleasing these groups of flakey people.

[Baraquda13]

I agree, problems with the game really, but every game is not without problems.

[Aydinx2]

I look at the opposite and don't understand how people can accept the elitistic game that this has become. And the insane requirements that people ask for.

- People asking for Ahead of the Curve for Normal raids
- People asking for Keystone Mastery (+15s) to join +10s
- People asking for full Heroic gear to do Normal raids

etc etc, it's become a joke.

You were literally asking for LFR to be unwipable and still award gear in the other thread. Nothing you say holds any value anymore.
And none of the behaviour you mentioned is new. People asking for proof of skill has been in the game since Vanilla. And none of those requirements are insane.

To asnwer the OP: Because WoW is one of the most expensive games to play. Full price for the expansion + monthly sub costs.
Every so often this exact same topic comes up and the OP needs to be reminded that we're customers who are paying more than what the competitors ask for. On top of that Blizzard keeps saying they're "listening to feedback" yet so far it has always been proven to be a lie. At least be honest.