STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Royru]

Open world can be soloed but you’re not alone. You CAN play with others or not. Instanced grouped content is for groups only.

But again, the problem is not solo vs groups, problem is that solo content is brain dead for the most part, by design.

But it does NOT have to be like this by a divine law, it’s a precise choice from Blizzard.

I’m sorry man I really don’t know how to explain it any easier. It doesn’t seem like it’s sticking, I tried.

[Celement]

Well, i'm not even considering people who don't partake in endgame content other than a rare try and stick to world content. As you said, that kind of player just logs in for a while and very likely will leave the game after a short time anyway, so whatever solution they can come up with they won't be affected by it, since they don't really are a part of the target playerbase.

Though i both agree and don't really mind if people is able to get Mythic ilvl gear from doing WQs only. I stopped caring about gear when i saw that there are just better ways to get decked other than raiding and everyone was basically more than fine with that while i was complaining about "free Mythic gear for 20 minutes pugged dungeon runs".

Really, the playerbase could get much better if the gear ilvl becomes much less relevant. The game is already just about being the fastest at clearing content and for that farming ilvl is actually detrimental to the race.

I feel the game needs some way to tell at a glance what a player is realistically ready for. I agree ilv is given out to freely for it to truely matter anymore. I'm just unsure what a solution would look like in its place?

Would mage tower work? It isnt a easy question as the community's answer isnt good for new or returning players.

After ap, azerite, corruption, conduits, etc. I sure don't trust blizzard even slightly with the everything should be rewarding angle.

[chiddie]

Open world can be soloed but you’re not alone. You CAN play with others or not. Instanced grouped content is for groups only.

But again, the problem is not solo vs groups, problem is that solo content is brain dead for the most part, by design.

But it does NOT have to be like this by a divine law, it’s a precise choice from Blizzard.

My friend there’s not much to explain, you think ow = solo by postulate, i think it’s not, there’s not much more to add.

But it’s indeed true that choosing to avoid the multiplayer part of ow is… a choice. It’s there if you want, only it’s not mandatory.

[Royru]

The fact that this guy quoted himself and said there isn’t much to explain truly is the cherry on top

[VMSmith]

BUT--- and this is where we lose most ppl who claim they "just want meaningful progression" - the gear only boosts stats in the open world. You get set bonuses too though - reduced hearth time, instant mounting, faster mount speeds, greatly increased healing while out of combat etc.

I've been asking for this ever since Wildstar devs implied it would be in that game (it wasn't). But not just for world content, for ALL content. Raid gear is only good in raids. World gear is only good in world content. PvP gear is only good in PvP, dungeon gear is only good in dungeons. It should all give a base use in any content so that you're not overwhelmed if you decide to try a new lane, but it should only be truly powerful in the content it comes from. This would mean everyone would need multiple sets of gear if they wanted to do multiple things, but I think that's a worthwhile tradeoff for everyone being happy doing what they actually enjoy doing. It would also avoid the pitfall of PvP gear being best for M+, or raid gear being best for PvP, and such.

- - - Updated - - -

How is the hardest content rewarding the best gear not "fair"?

Historically, in video games, the reward for beating the hardest content was the joy of having beaten the hardest content. Typically, it gave out the lousiest rewards as part of making it harder.

[chiddie]

The fact that this guy quoted himself and said there isn’t much to explain truly is the cherry on top

Oh, I miscklicked, sorry

Too tired, just terrible day at work.

[cparle87]

Open world stuff is not solo content. It’s simply non instanced content that CAN be also soloed to an extent. I see a lot of players in ow, I chat with them, help them, even group with them for tougher rares or to farm tokens/whatever.

I don’t know where this “multiplayer = instanced content only kkthx bai” came from but it’s just plain wrong.

You are mixing multiplaying with difficulty, a quite common mistake here on mmo-champ.

Oh and if there’s nothing wrong for me being “done” after two months in a patch, it should be for Blizzard, because if I’m done I will just unsubscribe and they won’t see any money from me.

Wow, that has got to be the finest splitting of hairs I have ever seen. So you don't consider the open world, Torghast, and anything else to be content for soloers because the option exists to also do it in groups? Only if it can only be done solo?

Blizzard has said they have no problem with cyclical subscribers who come on to do stuff, get it done, and stop until the next patch. They've been saying that since Cataclysm. You're the one who seems to think they should have a problem with it. Also, they tried infinite progression for small gains in Legion and BFA and all it did was stress out the wannabe hardcores who were tormented by the idea that if they didn't have the highest possible artifact level they were somehow behind.

"Oh my god there's nothing to do! I'm done! But I'm so addicted to this game, I need more! I don't want to quit! Give me more!" This is scary.

[Relapses]

Aw look, a No True Scotsman argument.

@Echo of Soul sucks at explaining his position but that isn't a No True Scotsman fallacy. There are people who want WoW be another video game. More often they want it to be a very specific video game that you can get banned on here for mentioning too frequently in your arguments. (In the example here he says flight sim but honestly it could be literally any fucking game that's ever existed. The argument doesn't ever change.) It is sound advice to tell people who want this game to be more like that other game to just play that other game instead of stomping their feet and claiming Blizzard hates their customers because they failed to capture this audience.

[Royru]

@Echo of Soul sucks at explaining his position but that isn't a No True Scotsman fallacy. There are people who want WoW be another video game. More often they want it to be a very specific video game that you can get banned on here for mentioning too frequently in your arguments. (In the example here he says flight sim but honestly it could be literally any fucking game that's ever existed. The argument doesn't ever change.) It is sound advice to tell people who want this game to be more like that other game to just play that other game instead of stomping their feet and claiming Blizzard hates their customers because they failed to capture this audience.

Echo literally said what’s make an MMO an MMO, it needs to have a big raid size. Which is objectively incorrect. He then said “name one mmo that is popular that has no raids” we mentioned just that. He then acted like those didn’t count because of the format of the mmo.

Point is he is wrong. This isn’t an opinion. What he said was actually wrong. MMOs have absolutely nothing to do with raids or raid size.

[chiddie]

Wow, that has got to be the finest splitting of hairs I have ever seen. So you don't consider the open world, Torghast, and anything else to be content for soloers because the option exists to also do it in groups? Only if it can only be done solo?

Blizzard has said they have no problem with cyclical subscribers who come on to do stuff, get it done, and stop until the next patch. They've been saying that since Cataclysm. You're the one who seems to think they should have a problem with it. Also, they tried infinite progression for small gains in Legion and BFA and all it did was stress out the wannabe hardcores who were tormented by the idea that if they didn't have the highest possible artifact level they were somehow behind.

"Oh my god there's nothing to do! I'm done! But I'm so addicted to this game, I need more! I don't want to quit! Give me more!" This is scary.

No, I’m simply saying that ow has a multiplayer part too. It can be ignored but it’s there.

This elitism about the “true multiplayer” won’t help the game.

[Coldkil]

I feel the game needs some way to tell at a glance what a player is realistically ready for. I agree ilv is given out to freely for it to truely matter anymore. I'm just unsure what a solution would look like in its place?

Would mage tower work? It isnt a easy question as the community's answer isnt good for new or returning players.

After ap, azerite, corruption, conduits, etc. I sure don't trust blizzard even slightly with the everything should be rewarding angle.

Mage tower is good, in the sense that it offers an evegreen challenge since it always scales you down to a set power. But Mythic while it could be interesting to have it as a permanent challenge in game, it would become a minmax nightmare the more you go ahead with content because the BiS list for it would become more and more convoluted. On one side it would be awesome tonha e mythic raiding as a perpertually relevant challenge but i assume it's also a balancing nightmare.

EDIT: as for everything else that Blizzard added form Legion onwards, it's not really a matter of "X system is good or bad". Most of them taken as they are are fine or good for the purpose they were made. The issue lies in the fact that all these systems actually interact with each other and create synergies that either clash with another system or are basically unwanted.

DF talents are good because all the character power is finally on your character and not onto something else. The less players have to deal with, the less has Blizzard also to keep an eye on and mantain.

[Sariengrey]

Everyone thinks how they see the game is the right way. How they feel about the game is correct. How they play the game is the only way to play it. And the content they do is the only content that matters.

All I see are a bunch of people who think they are chads but are likely just chumps...

[cparle87]

No, I’m simply saying that ow has a multiplayer part too. It can be ignored but it’s there.

This elitism about the “true multiplayer” won’t help the game.

You pretty clearly said you don't consider open world content to be "true" single player content because the option to do it in a group is there and therefore it's not valid.

[chiddie]

You pretty clearly said you don't consider open world content to be "true" single player content because the option to do it in a group is there and therefore it's not valid.

Everything started from you saying that people that don’t partake to multiplayer content don’t deserve anything.

I just pointed out that open world CAN be multiplayer content too (and that’s quite undeniable), end of the story.

I’m playing a lot of D3 since WoW offers nothing to casuals/solos, there are people that only play in party, there are people that only play solo, nobody cares about what others do or get even if they are all getting more or less the same things.

Stop caring too much about what others get doing what, IF you enjoy what you’re doing because it’s fun it should not be a major concern.

But of course this is not WoW’s case, where the major fun comes 99% in having an higher ilvl than the rest of the plebe.

[Coldkil]

Everyone thinks how they see the game is the right way. How they feel about the game is correct. How they play the game is the only way to play it. And the content they do is the only content that matters.

All I see are a bunch of people who think they are chads but are likely just chumps...

Wow, a great addition to the discussion. Now my gameplay time is much better, thanks.

[cparle87]

Everything started from you saying that people that don’t partake to multiplayer content don’t deserve anything.

I just pointed out that open world CAN be multiplayer content too (and that’s quite undeniable), end of the story.

I’m playing a lot of D3 since WoW offers nothing to casuals/solos, there are people that only play in party, there are people that only play solo, nobody cares about what others do or get even if they are all getting more or less the same things.

Stop caring too much about what others get doing what, IF you enjoy what you’re doing because it’s fun it should not be a major concern.

But of course this is not WoW’s case, where the major fun comes 99% in having an higher ilvl than the rest of the plebe.

Stop strawmanning. I said they don't deserve the absolute best.

And your use of hyperbole is completely insulting. You can get normal raid level conduits, the same legendaries as mythic raiders, full tier for the first time ever, and a full set of equal to or nearly normal raid tier gear from chests and rares.

You seem to be the one who cares more than anyone about other people having better things than you because they do group content. Considering your literal quote that apparently you can only have 1% of the fun of everyone else if they're better geared than you.

Your entire argument seems to be "soloers have no line of progression because I say so. Ignore all that other stuff it doesn't count cause non-soloers can get it too."

[chiddie]

Stop strawmanning. I said they don't deserve the absolute best.

And your use of hyperbole is completely insulting. You can get normal raid level conduits, the same legendaries as mythic raiders, full tier for the first time ever, and a full set of equal to or nearly normal raid tier gear from chests and rares.

You seem to be the one who cares more than anyone about other people having better things than you because they do group content. Considering your literal quote that apparently you can only have 1% of the fun of everyone else if they're better geared than you.

Your entire argument seems to be "soloers have no line of progression because I say so. Ignore all that other stuff it doesn't count cause non-soloers can get it too."

In fact they are not even remotely close to having the absolute best. Assuming they get everything can get outside the triad, they will land somewhere between 250 and 255, that is 20-25 less ilvl from “the best”. Quite a huge gap.

But ilvl for ME is not a big issue, the main issue is having 1-2 months of progression every 6 months and then nothing. I’m talking about ilvl because the core of the game is getting better gear since 2004.

They are revamping professions because it’s the cheapest way to grant progression without having to invent challenging open world stuff, that would require a hella lot of more brainstorming and coding time.

[Celement]

In fact they are not even remotely close to having the absolute best. Assuming they get everything can get outside the triad, they will land somewhere between 250 and 255, that is 20-25 less ilvl from “the best”. Quite a huge gap.

But ilvl for ME is not a big issue, the main issue is having 1-2 months of progression every 6 months and then nothing. I’m talking about ilvl because the core of the game is getting better gear since 2004.

They are revamping professions because it’s the cheapest way to grant progression without having to invent challenging open world stuff, that would require a hella lot of more brainstorming and coding time.

I mean most raiders cap out power progression wise at the same time. The reason why most guilds push lock out rather then farm now is a combination of bosses having punishing pass fail mechanics that wipe the raid. Alongside the fact that the vault and mythic plus covers off the rest of the gear.

[chiddie]

I mean most raiders cap out power progression wise at the same time. The reason why most guilds push lock out rather then farm now is a combination of bosses having punishing pass fail mechanics that wipe the raid. Alongside the fact that the vault and mythic plus covers off the rest of the gear.

Most mythic raiders haven’t even gone past the Crab I think. But yes they somehow compensate with the Vault.

I can agree that WoW has been always like this and it makes maybe little sense to have it changed but let’s at least do not pretend it’s particularly casual/solo satisfying progression wise.

[Celement]

Most mythic raiders haven’t even gone past the Crab I think. But yes they somehow compensate with the Vault.

I can agree that WoW has been always like this and it makes maybe little sense to have it changed but let’s at least do not pretend it’s particularly casual/solo satisfying progression wise.

I won't but no mmorpg should be a satisfying solo progression game. I think at best something like path of exiles or diablo sort of pull it off but there is always goog to be compromises from a design perspective.

You can never really serve both the solo crowd and the group crowd.