STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[potis]

Wasn't my question

I gave you the correct answer, who cares about the WoW playerbase when it doesnt matter at what level it is, when the people i have gathered over years are there? Or is it to hard to grasp in your tiny head that you are supposed to find people to play with that are either equally good, or equally bad as you?

Or you can create a new account on mmo-champion, to keep trying to increase your echo chamber of how M+5 is hard and those big bad boosters are the problem, DAMN SATAN, PRETENDING TO BE ION AND PERSONALLY DESTROYING THE GAME FOR THALSARION.

And edit: Damn those pesky boosters for world inflation!

[NineSpine]

It predominantly is though for casual and solo players until the alliance raid comes out and even that is basically lfr with the difficulty afterwards immediately jumping to around heroic levels.

Battlegrounds also offer honor gear though and isn't the problem here that people whine about not wanting to play the dungeon content that offers an endgame loop? With Professions you are right currently but blizz already announced to fix that. But generally wow offers plenty of optionsfor solo and casual players to reach around normal raid levels of itemlevel with some heroic level pieces. Thats not that much worse than the quality of gear you would get in ff14 if we would put both side by side and there are more means to obtain it. The only quality fully unobtainable for casuals is mythic level gear outside of BoEs

Things I used to be able to do for a casual endgame loop in WoW:
1. Queue for dungeons
2. Queue for battlegrounds
3. Progressions
4. Reputations

None of those are valuable anymore. You outgear them moments after hitting max level. That is the problem. You reach normal raid item level by sneezing in the direction of the game. It's not a loop. They just throw the gear at you immediately and tell you to go do M+, heroic/mythic raids, or rated pvp if you want anything more.

[Thalsarion]

I gave you the correct answer, who cares about the WoW playerbase

If your correct answer is "who cares about the wow playerbase" when we are talking about ways to bring more people back as well as have the game enjoyable for yourself and more people in general then idk why you're even attempting to say anything. The only thing you have to offer is "I like it so the game is good" while plugging your ears and ignoring anything anyone else has to say.

[potis]

If your correct answer is "who cares about the wow playerbase" when we are talking about ways to bring more people back as well as have the game enjoyable for yourself and more people in general then idk why you're even attempting to say anything. The only thing you have to offer is "I like it so the game is good" while plugging your ears and ignoring anything anyone else has to say.

But they will come back either way, i dont understand why you think mmo-champion reflects reality even the least, plus its full of addicted WoW-haters that resub every expansion or patch either way, despite what they post on here.

The game cant be enjoyable to someone that expects to play golf in a basketball court, complaining there isnt enough space and he demands they make space cause he will leave the area otherwise.

Good riddance.

[Thalsarion]

But they will come back either way, i dont understand why you think mmo-champion reflects reality even the least, plus its full of addicted WoW-haters that resub every expansion or patch either way, despite what they post on here.

The game cant be enjoyable to someone that expects to play golf in a basketball court, complaining there isnt enough space and he demands they make space cause he will leave the area otherwise.

Good riddance.

Yeah except the past couple expansions have shown that they aren’t coming back anymore. Participation has been at an all time low for awhile now. Populations from all sources that we can possibly gather have all shown that people just straight up aren’t playing anymore.

So if you want to sit there and act like it’s killing it, that’s fine. But it isn’t. The game USE to work like this where it was way more casual friendly and the game was extremely popular. The moment that changed is when people quit.

[potis]

Yeah except the past couple expansions have shown that they aren’t coming back anymore. Participation has been at an all time low for awhile now. Populations from all sources that we can possibly gather have all shown that people just straight up aren’t playing anymore.

So if you want to sit there and act like it’s killing it, that’s fine. But it isn’t. The game USE to work like this where it was way more casual friendly and the game was extremely popular. The moment that changed is when people quit.

Its the same as it has been every expansion, what are you talking about? First couple of months was the same as every previous expansion as expected, then a few months after people started quitting as expected, only difference this time, we were still under covid and people needed a new fix which other MMOs gave.

If those other MMOs are what people are looking for, great for them, Guild Wars 2 is my single player MMO, cause i dont care about it apart from the main story line and since its B2P, its perfect for me, when we stop raiding for 2-3 months, i go there and finish the latest storylines.

But i dont go to GW2 forums to remove the raids cause i dont wanna do them.

Obviously its a different game, but my point stands, if the game doesnt offer you what you want, unsub, come back when it does, unsub again.

As most of the people you think "leave" are doing, generally the WoW population is also dwilding cause the new generation isnt really interested, and the older people eventually stop, for multiple reasons.

[Echo of Soul]

Things I used to be able to do for a casual endgame loop in WoW:
1. Queue for dungeons
2. Queue for battlegrounds
3. Progressions
4. Reputations

None of those are valuable anymore. You outgear them moments after hitting max level. That is the problem. You reach normal raid item level by sneezing in the direction of the game. It's not a loop. They just throw the gear at you immediately and tell you to go do M+, heroic/mythic raids, or rated pvp if you want anything more.

So you want the game to give you less gear?

[NineSpine]

So you want the game to give you less gear?

I'd like the activities I enjoy to have a reward for doing them.

The problem is that if you just make that stage of gearing take a long time, you can only do it three ways:

1. Increase the length of the ladder at that stage of progression.
2. Make gearing at this stage take longer through scarcity.
3. Allow casual content to dole out rewards further up the ladder over time.

Solution 1 causes even more gear inflation, which is a serious problem already.
Solution 2 forces players that want to do challenging content to spend weeks or months stuck in this stage of gearing before they get to the content they want.
Solution 3 is the only viable one that doesn't cause secondary problems.

[relaxok]

Mythic players are way more than 0.1% of the player base. Today its more likely that you can swap the numbers and remove the dot, 10%.

In SoO 9000 guilds killed at least one boss on mythic. 22k on normal. We are closing in on half of the amount of normal players(41%ish).

This is just because heroic guilds often do like the first boss or two of Mythic.. that doesn't make them mythic guilds..

[Diaphin]

Things I used to be able to do for a casual endgame loop in WoW:
1. Queue for dungeons
2. Queue for battlegrounds
3. Progressions
4. Reputations

None of those are valuable anymore. You outgear them moments after hitting max level. That is the problem. You reach normal raid item level by sneezing in the direction of the game. It's not a loop. They just throw the gear at you immediately and tell you to go do M+, heroic/mythic raids, or rated pvp if you want anything more.

You understand that m+ are dungeons? Like, they are dungeons, you can get endgame itemlevel gear through playing dungeons. Thats the whole reason m+ exist, to have an endgame loop centered around just playing dungeons. You also can get I think it was around itemlevel 259? Itemlevel though honor, therefore normal battlegrounds. You can get one itemlevel 260 slot as well as your legendary slot though professions and reputatation vendors always weren't that worthwile because you were likely to have better gear when you reached the required reputation.

So basically, you have options. Not to forget that it takes quite some grind to reach 252 item level, so no, you're lying here. Its an alternative for solo players to farm gear at raid level, not really something that fully replaced the normal mode. So whats the problem, there's quite the gameplay loop here. You can even reach heroic itemlevel through the weekly mythic dungeons event which only require m0 dungeons. you just can't get regular heroic item level gear or any mythic item level stuff without doing organized and challenging content.

[conkrete]

That wouldn't be a problem if Mythic raiders wouldn't SIM a ridiculous amount higher in dps as OP and others pointed out in the past. The difference between the best mythic gear and the best attainable gear through m+ shouldn't be higher than 5%.

[cparle87]

You understand that m+ are dungeons? Like, they are dungeons, you can get endgame itemlevel gear through playing dungeons. Thats the whole reason m+ exist, to have an endgame loop centered around just playing dungeons. You also can get I think it was around itemlevel 259? Itemlevel though honor, therefore normal battlegrounds. You can get one itemlevel 260 slot as well as your legendary slot though professions and reputatation vendors always weren't that worthwile because you were likely to have better gear when you reached the required reputation.

So basically, you have options. Not to forget that it takes quite some grind to reach 252 item level, so no, you're lying here. Its an alternative for solo players to farm gear at raid level, not really something that fully replaced the normal mode. So whats the problem, there's quite the gameplay loop here. You can even reach heroic itemlevel through the weekly mythic dungeons event which only require m0 dungeons. you just can't get regular heroic item level gear or any mythic item level stuff without doing organized and challenging content.

Note the "queue for dungeons." He either wants zeros added to random dungeon finder, or random heroic giving the best gear in the game.

There's been arguments in this very thread claiming that solo players have no progression curve at all because the curve ends sooner than raiders and key runners.

[Echo of Soul]

Note the "queue for dungeons." He either wants zeros added to random dungeon finder, or random heroic giving the best gear in the game.

There's been arguments in this very thread claiming that solo players have no progression curve at all because the curve ends sooner than raiders and key runners.

That's stupid. Solo players don't deserve gear. Either do mythic or stop crying.

[Primitive]

I think one of the main issues is just that they've done a horrible job on getting more people invested in group content. The most fun I've had in WoW has always been with my friends from Vanilla through Cata and starting MoP most of us just got caught up in real life. I still like to play WoW but if I can invest 5 hours a week in playing than I've had a very good week.But over the years every social aspect has been removed from WoW. Back in the day, you could group up and by the time you arrived at the dungeon you already had some banter with the people in your party. You got to know some new people, there was always a little bit of downtime in a dungeon when your party ran OoM. Now every piece of group content is designed around the priniciple that it has to be a loot pinata that you can repeat as quickly as possible. Pull as much mobs as you can AOE them down, bossfight, rince and repeat, bye everybody, queue again,...

But there's like no time to just chill for a moment, because if you accidentally miss a mechanic there's like always one of those try-hard basement dwellers in your group who immediately goes berserk and feels the need to start bothering you in chat or through whispers. And well I'm 37 years old, I'm really way past the point on caring about what some random dude on the internet has to say about me. But I think it's something that when it happens might demotivate someone else from really diving deeper into group content. Guild finder and communities are a barren joke. There's really no decent system in place to actually try and interact with other human beings on a casual level and god forbid maybe find someone who you'd enjoy playing with.

And this is just a stupid thought, but why don't they do something with the inns in the capital cities. Make the buildings larger, have tables with a different number of seats at them. You sit at a table, you auto-join a party and you just chat and see if your ideas on having a good time match and off you go to do some group stuff or you talk to someone else. Have an inn for social interactions, create another inn that would be known for the mythic crowd. But people come together in the game and then you can form communities or guilds or whatever. And well maybe there are 4 other 35+ year old dads out there, who wouldn't mind spending a super casual time on a discord chat, doing some low end mythics, while we're all having a beer at home, not giving a shit when things go wrong and just blaming our wives.

I wouldn't mind but the game really has lackluster tools for people to come together and have a good time together. Fix this issue and you'll see a lot less people complaining that the game is only designed for a small portion of the community.

[Diaphin]

Note the "queue for dungeons." He either wants zeros added to random dungeon finder, or random heroic giving the best gear in the game.

There's been arguments in this very thread claiming that solo players have no progression curve at all because the curve ends sooner than raiders and key runners.

To be honest, I think adding zeroes to random dungeon finder wouldn't be that much of a problem and maybe help making m+ dungeons more accessible, when people get keystones they may be more inclined to try it out. m0 isn't that hard after all and it has no timer, I would absolutely rate it around lfr difficulty.

[potis]

Well.

I play this game since launch day in europe.
In wotlk I had 360 days played.

And 70% of that was probably standing in Dalaran trying to get something going or farming pointless reputation to unlock a quest or doing something extra slowly, it doesnt reflect reality, it reflects your experience, but its not the reality of the game.

It weirds me out how people prefer those systems over the newer systems that were changed because people of your type demanded it, and how you guys dont see it and people that do play the game also got so much more free time.

Someone at some point complained that he didnt want to farm to revered to unlock the questline, he didnt have time to do dailies apart from playing on a Saturday, therefor the time gating system moved on from:

"Do dailies for 50 days to reach exalted" to "The questline will release a chapter every week for 5-8 weeks".

Or, "Queue up in LFR and clear it for 5 weeks in a row to collect 80/80 for this OBVIOUSLY TIMEGATING QUESTLINE".

And somehow you guys find this as a bad thing cause nostalgia is hitting you.

[Deadite]

Solo players don't deserve gear.

You sound like a nice fella. Imagine how less toxic this game would be if people only worried about their own gear instead of what gear other people have. I guess you wanting to stop people getting any gear is a new low even for this forum. Grats for that is guess.

This game has always been raid or die. You raid and get good gear or you get scraps. I guess the high point in this expansion is that you can actually get normal level raid gear. I mean they have shitty stats but the 252 ilvl is prolly enough to get the raiders tears flowing. If you grind for weeks you can even get enough doodads to get 246 gear and make tier. Chuck in your 291 legos and 259? stuff from the WB and a crafted item you can get the best non raid gear you have ever been able to. You never even have to try and join people who hate you and try to raid. It is pretty sweet!

[Violent]

STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

"Nope! We don't care! It's dead/dying already, it's 15+ years old. Move on!" - Blizzard, probably.

[cparle87]

That's stupid. Solo players don't deserve gear. Either do mythic or stop crying.

I've been arguing throughout this thread that solo players have it better than I think they've ever had. They can get full tier, double legos, full normal raid conduits, and a complete set of 246-259 gear. Sadly for some they don't call this a progression curve at all because it's not as long as raiders and key runners.

- - - Updated - - -

To be honest, I think adding zeroes to random dungeon finder wouldn't be that much of a problem and maybe help making m+ dungeons more accessible, when people get keystones they may be more inclined to try it out. m0 isn't that hard after all and it has no timer, I would absolutely rate it around lfr difficulty.

I'm inclined to agree. It would also cut down on the number of people going into keys, any keys, without knowing mechanics. Since the jump from heroic to mythic DOES add a bit of something to the bosses.

[Deadite]

I've been arguing throughout this thread that solo players have it better than I think they've ever had. They can get full tier, double legos, full normal raid conduits, and a complete set of 246-259 gear. Sadly for some they don't call this a progression curve at all because it's not as long as raiders and key runners.

It is the best non raid gear you have been able to get right enough. The thing is that after a few weeks you are done. I think that is the main thing people are complaining about. Now i just quit till the next patch after i have done the reps and what not but for people who still want to play the game? Unless they raid or PvP then they have stagnation. Now i can tell from this forum that raiders don't give a fuck about that and they would shit bricks if there was a way to improve your gear out side of a raid but if Blizzard added something to say add 10 ilvls to an item? Collect 15 doodads over a week doing preferably something fun and new that would keep everyone but raiders happy.