Should they just break addons?

[Itisamuh]

Yes. Addons are one of the biggest cancers of the game in my opinion, both for PvE & PvP.

[Nymrohd]

But make more guilds able to progress and clear Mythic in a reasonable timeframe so those players stick around. Tune Mythic for the 'average' Mythic raider, not the RWF.

I think if raids are going to be current content for 6-8 months they do however need something to spice up raiding content mid way. I think most guilds are done with the difficulty they can reasonably clear by week 12-16. Then they either push into a difficulty most of their members cannot really handle, which leads to so many social issues OR they just sell boosts to keep the farm period interesting. I think they need to find a way to either spice up farm or alternatively to make a different raid experience available mid way through the tier to keep people busy (e.g. a long TW period that bring back a raid for 3 months tuned for the current tier).

[Lochton]

As a world player, no, addons should not be broken, banned, or throttled unless they can offer their own built-in version to fulfill the roles that addons do due to them not existing.

[crusadernero]

Disabling Master loot was not about trying to gatekeep the RWF guilds. It was about stopping the complaints to their GM's when pug master looters steal items.

I do believe that the RWF has caused Blizzard to design ever more complex and tightly tuned fights to 'challenge' the top guilds, with the intend of nerfing it later for the rest. And failing in that design by just making fights no one even wants to do after having been nerfed.
Blizzard should ignore how good these 3-4 top guilds are and just accept they will clear the raid in a week, that is not a problem for the game. They will stay subbed farm clears and be back next raid.
But make more guilds able to progress and clear Mythic in a reasonable timeframe so those players stick around. Tune Mythic for the 'average' Mythic raider, not the RWF.

Intentional or not, making raids that suits RWF is damaging to the game. Its fun for a couple of weeks, or less, then its over and no one really cares. Its this constant battle back and forth between blizz making harder fights for ppl to clear, as such better addons will be created. So this never-ending cycle will never really stop. This has even effected normal & HC modes, which are arguably harder than they should be.

Mythic is a mode that really few engages with and something Blizzard probably spends alot of time on setting up. Then you gotta ask - why do it? Is this worth doing for the overall health of the game & playerbase? Maybe, maybe not.

[Kralljin]

Disabling Master loot was not about trying to gatekeep the RWF guilds. It was about stopping the complaints to their GM's when pug master looters steal items.

It wasn't, that was already a non option in Legion when you had to be a in a guild group in order to turn on Masterloot.

It's also ironic considering that Blizzard is able to ignore the entire issue in Classic, where Personal loot doesn't even exist.

[crusadernero]

As a world player, no, addons should not be broken, banned, or throttled unless they can offer their own built-in version to fulfill the roles that addons do due to them not existing.

I think there should be a distinction between addons that are purely cosmetic(changes UI), collection/quest addons and addons that directly helps you in a raid/dungeon fight.

Imagine if wow didnt have addons that could help you in a raid boss. Would we have seen the complex fights we see today? most likely not.

[Lochton]

I think there should be a distinction between addons that are purely cosmetic(changes UI), collection/quest addons and addons that directly helps you in a raid/dungeon fight.

Imagine if wow didnt have addons that could help you in a raid boss. Would we have seen the complex fights we see today? most likely not.

No, WoW wouldn't be envied for their raiding if we hadn't permitted addons. The natural development of making things harder because there are tools that makes them easier, wouldn't have happened.

And yes, there are, like some call it, combat and non-combat addons, I guess.

[crusadernero]

No, WoW wouldn't be envied for their raiding if we hadn't permitted addons. The natural development of making things harder because there are tools that makes them easier, wouldn't have happened.

And yes, there are, like some call it, combat and non-combat addons, I guess.

Im cool with having hard content in wow, by all means. There are a segment of the playerbase that want that, fine. Problem is, this is taken down into normal & HC mode too. Even LFR suffers from it, a feature that is supposed to be tourist mode.

Addons is not really wrong, but its becoming an issue when its required in order to complete content.

[cparle87]

If you don't think they design the game with RWF raiders in mind you have rocks in your head

They've said in interviews they create heroic first, fine then fine tune for 20 up to mythic, then downgrade and scale down to normal and LFR.

[Lochton]

Im cool with having hard content in wow, by all means. There are a segment of the playerbase that want that, fine. Problem is, this is taken down into normal & HC mode too. Even LFR suffers from it, a feature that is supposed to be tourist mode.

Addons is not really wrong, but its becoming an issue when its required in order to complete content.

That is true, but LFR isn't meant to be a walk in the park either for some people, it is a stage that is meant to resemble the upper tiers too, even if less ability/dmg for the less prepared/geared.

I don't honestly care with raiding addons, DBM/Skada is wonderful, of course, I don't use anything else for raiding anymore, nor have I for over a decade, even while actively raiding. There was the drama of some add-ons going way out to handle content for you, and they were of course banned.

My main worry is, that the people on the 'ban(d)-wagon', seem to want it with a fat line under it, meaning things like social/interactive tools to be harmed as well. And as one who runs events and whatnot, I'd rather not see those tools gone..

[cparle87]

Well... they design the game in mind of RWF not clearing it within an hour. But somehow they ended up with malicious gatekeeping systems like disabling master loot or gating bosses instead of interesting / challenging bosses. (see e.g. Mimiron, Uu'nat, etc.).

And their next idea to keep their whales happy is to introduce complexity by Fated raids with affixes. I personally would promote a system that scales bosses with the average item level of the raid (like they did for outdoor environments in Legion e.g.) so that any additional power gained by items is compensated (atleast in Mythic). This would require them to somehow address power gains by additional legendaries, tier sets or other systems first. Easiest would be a broad access to those systems already during the heroic raid. Or an inverse ICC mechanic that bosses gain power per week but your item loot level increases or other rewards like mounts, toys, cosmetics (like e.g. Torghast). Would be fun to see the Torghast mechanic become a stable 20man raid feature

But then again back to the topic: breaking addons... those are the last things that keep that 20 year old UI somewhat functional for the complexity of todays raid... and even back in Vanilla the UI was horrific and gave little to no control / Quality of life.

What boss gating was there in SFO?

Surely nothing like MC where you didn't stand a rat's ass in hell of beating the second boss until you spent 4+ weeks just killing the first boss for a drop and then prayed the hunters you gave the drop to showed up. Or the absurd convoluted TBC attunement flowchart. Or the entire raid being timegated behind literal gates like in SWP. Or limited attempts which would've cause WF raiders to gear and prepare multiple teams if they didn't want it take them 6 weeks to beat the last boss.

- - - Updated - - -

It's also ironic considering that Blizzard is able to ignore the entire issue in Classic, where Personal loot doesn't even exist.

How do you know they're NOT dealing with all sorts of loot argument tickets in classic? Here's a tip, you don't.

[Lollis]

Okay but hear me out for a second. Those addons used macros. The issue wasn’t the addon itself, it was how the macro system worked.

You could go into your macros and do the exact same thing that these addons did, the addons just made it easier to manage.

What in the everloving fuck are you talking about? The WoW macro system is just a simplified version of the backend lua focused on using built in methods/functions rather than having to do the main bulk of code yourself.

[Kralljin]

How do you know they're NOT dealing with all sorts of loot argument tickets in classic? Here's a tip, you don't.

GM's categorically refuse to engage any Loot related issues, so they just close the tickets.
Nevermind that Classic, at least by public meters, isn't just some sideshow when purely looking at raiding metrics.

If Blizzard has to invest massive amounts of resources into Tickets on the Classic front, then they should probably look for alternative solutions because the Classic Train won't stop and BfA Classic is still far off.

Here's the reality: If you write a ticket because of loot disputes, the GM will print an automated reply and close the ticket.
You joined a group with given lootrules (usually Masterloot), you knew the risks involved.

[crusadernero]

That is true, but LFR isn't meant to be a walk in the park either for some people, it is a stage that is meant to resemble the upper tiers too, even if less ability/dmg for the less prepared/geared.

I don't honestly care with raiding addons, DBM/Skada is wonderful, of course, I don't use anything else for raiding anymore, nor have I for over a decade, even while actively raiding. There was the drama of some add-ons going way out to handle content for you, and they were of course banned.

My main worry is, that the people on the 'ban(d)-wagon', seem to want it with a fat line under it, meaning things like social/interactive tools to be harmed as well. And as one who runs events and whatnot, I'd rather not see those tools gone..

LFR should be a walk in the park. Every other automated grouping feature have content that is very easy. Doing a random normal/HC dungeon is piss easy compared to LFR. Makes no sense that LFR is challenging, at all. Especially when theres already normal, HC & Mythic mode in the game.

But for some reason, as my point was initially, the difficulty shouldnt be higher and higher in lfr, normal & HC just because mythic raiders wants a huge challenge. Let mythic raiders have the challenge, but dont let everyone else suffer because of it.


To your last point; I agree, it would be weird to remove everyone. Not all addons really affects the game a whole lot.

[cparle87]

GM's categorically refuse to engage any Loot related issues, so they just close the tickets.
Nevermind that Classic, at least by public meters, isn't just some sideshow when purely looking at raiding metrics.

If Blizzard has to invest massive amounts of resources into Tickets on the Classic front, then they should probably look for alternative solutions because the Classic Train won't stop and BfA Classic is still far off.

Here's the reality: If you write a ticket because of loot disputes, the GM will print an automated reply and close the ticket.
You joined a group with given lootrules (usually Masterloot), you knew the risks involved.

Yes, they refuse to get involved with them. But that won't prevent gajillions of players from opening tickets anyway that they'll have to sort through to find things they WILL help with. More work.

[Kralljin]

Yes, they refuse to get involved with them. But that won't prevent gajillions of players from opening tickets anyway that they'll have to sort through to find things they WILL help with. More work.

That hardly takes any time, i had a friend that used to work in CS for other games and he said that those things barely take any time at all.

Disregarding that, point still stands: It's a thing in Classic and Blizzard *somehow* is able to deal with it.

[melzas]

Dunno, I got 2400+ rating in arena and KSM every season since BFA, and I don't use any add-ons at all (except for Rio for m+, but it's not really a gameplay add-on).

I don't think they are mandatory at all (at least for PvP and m+, can't speak from raiding perspective as I don't raid outside of LFR for mogs) I'm sure there are even higher rated players who don't use them either. I think people give them more credit than its due.

[Alroxas]

what they hsould do is stop caring what world best guilds do.

nerf everythign but 40-60 % and let things go back to how they were in wolk - casual heaven .

who cares if method cleares raid in 3 hours. nobody sane cares about them in first place.

But there's a problem that those kinds of addons can have a "tricke-down" effect on the rest of the playerbase. Case in point would be the Among Us weakaura (the first one) that automatically determined who were the "traitors".

Sure nobody had to use them but once developed (and published) nearly everyone used them until Blizzard broke it.

And it filters to all aspects of WoW gameplay. From PvP to PvE to even AH, addons can provide a certain level of QoL that sometimes can become too advantageous not to use.

[HansOlo]

I feel that the game went way too far with addons again.
It was like that in late WoD too.
I was always playing the game with as little addons as I could, I didn't had to have a boss mod yelling at me every 5 seconds to get out of damaging floor or something. I managed to beat all of MOP raid tiers on mythic (or back then - heroic) without any boss mod installed.
First tier of WOD was manageable as well. But the second tier (on mythic), well... not quite. I had to have an addon for Kormrok (hands), and another one for Iskar (cos passing the ball fast enough with default UI was nearly impossible) and yet another one for Archimonde (lazer beams).

Then in Legion and BFA they again toned down this bullshit a bit, I haven't raided all tiers but most were manageable without DBM or weak auras. Mostly awareness mechanics, you know what's coming and how to deal with it.

But then Shadowlands came and another round of clusterfuck fights that have mechanics which require addons. And any kind of mythic guild i was in was mandating weakauras from players. I mean fuck off, do i have to have so much trash on my UI on every damn fight? I clearly don't, I was fine without that for years.

What's up with blizzard? Did their UI Design team just gave up because everyone just uses ElvUI/RothUI/GennUI? AH took 10 years to fix, prior to BFA patch 8.2 it was unusable without some sort of UI addon such as TSM or auctionator. They're basically telling the players to fix their damn game for them. And the result is having to install a hundred fucking addons and have 15 LUA errors pop up every login. I'm through tolerating this.

New UI = tons of resources and tons of management/support/bug fixes.
Community UI = saved tons of resources and tons of management/support/bug fixes.

What would you pick if you were Bobby?

[Alroxas]

What boss gating was there in SFO?

In reference to RWF, I don't think it was as much boss gating as it was power gains from the tier set to the point where you wanted as many players as possible to have full tier sets going into the race (on as many alt mains) as necessary to overcome the raid encounters.

Honestly, RWF would probably benefit more from being on Tournament servers where everything (gear and consumables) were just handed to all the contenders and it boils down to their skill and coordination to clear the raid as fast as they can.