Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makorus]

Really for all that I enjoy Stonetalon Garrosh, the Garrosh that challenged Thrall to a Mak'gora instead of attempting any actual discussion back in the Wrath pre-event, the one who completely discounted Saurfang in Borean Tundra and who was in every zone other than Stonetalon in Cata is the same Garrosh of MoP.

I never understand why people think Stonetalon Garrosh is such an outlier.

Up until MoP, all his actions in Stonetalon match with his other actions, yes, even Theramore. Theramore was an actual Alliance outpost that has been planning to raze Razor Hall and most of Durotar. It was a valid target and it's not like he purposefully went after civilians.

And come MoP, obviously his character is slowly drifting away from the Stonetalon Garrosh, because the whole expansion is about him getting megalomaniac and being influenced by his bad traits (and the Shas). It's called character development.

People bitching about Garrosh being "ruined" because he actually had character development makes me excited about them removing stories from the PTR because I'd rather let them write the game than the community.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I never understand why people think Stonetalon Garrosh is such an outlier.

Up until MoP, all his actions in Stonetalon match with his other actions, yes, even Theramore. Theramore was an actual Alliance outpost that has been planning to raze Razor Hall and most of Durotar. It was a valid target and it's not like he purposefully went after civilians.

And come MoP, obviously his character is slowly drifting away from the Stonetalon Garrosh, because the whole expansion is about him getting megalomaniac and being influenced by his bad traits (and the Shas). It's called character development.

People bitching about Garrosh being "ruined" because he actually had character development makes me excited about them removing stories from the PTR because I'd rather let them write the game than the community.

All of Theramore wasn't going to do that, it was just some of them on their own doing their own thing(In durotar). But yes in general I agree, Garrosh was always Garrosh.

[Ersula]

Yep.

Garrosh, in Cataclysm: You're like the Lich King, Sylvanas!

Horde players, in BfA: Whaaaa, Sylvanas is mass-raising the dead??? *shocked Pikachu face*

Garrosh said that. Garrosh.

That's really not an example of a "bad person." Draenei literally enslave their dead in robot bodies. Void Elves & Undead are biologically the same thing. And I've never seen an explanation of how that's somehow worse than what Odyn does. And Calia's about to start making new undead using Saa'ra

[Varodoc]

Garrosh said that. Garrosh.

That's really not an example of a "bad person." Draenei literally enslave their dead in robot bodies. Void Elves & Undead are biologically the same thing. And I've never seen an explanation of how that's somehow worse than what Odyn does. And Calia's about to start making new undead using Saa'ra

Your attempt at damage control fails because the Argent Crusade, who are objectively good guys, also thought that the Forsaken were acting like the Scourge.

Face it, back when they were led by Sylvanas, no one liked the Forsaken. The Alliance hated them, the rest of the Horde also hated them and kept them as allies only for strategic value, and pretty much everyone sane and good on Azeroth was either wary of them or wanted them gone.

It's such a miserable and despicable existence that Sylvanas herself, their leader, committed suicide as soon as she had her revenge, and came back only because she didn't want to stay in Hell. That's what the Forsaken are. They are such a cursed race, that their leader's first thought after her quest was done was literally to kill herself and be free of that miserable existence.

But under Calia, the Forsaken will finally enter an age where the Alliance and Horde will no longer be (rightfully) terrified of them, and that is an improvement.

People in-universe aren't nearly as terrified, hateful, and resentful of Alleria and the Ren'dorei as they were of the Forsaken. The only guy who complains about the Void elves, literally, is Lor'themar Theron, and he's a random nerd.

[Alanar]

People in-universe aren't nearly as terrified, hateful, and resentful of Alleria and the Ren'dorei as they were of the Forsaken. The only guy who complains about the Void elves, literally, is Lor'themar Theron, and he's a random nerd.

Just call them void elves to start with. Only nerds call them ren dorei. They are just not important man.

Atleast people know who lorte mar is. Umbric is still who?.?

[Nymrohd]

I never understand why people think Stonetalon Garrosh is such an outlier.

Up until MoP, all his actions in Stonetalon match with his other actions, yes, even Theramore. Theramore was an actual Alliance outpost that has been planning to raze Razor Hall and most of Durotar. It was a valid target and it's not like he purposefully went after civilians.

And come MoP, obviously his character is slowly drifting away from the Stonetalon Garrosh, because the whole expansion is about him getting megalomaniac and being influenced by his bad traits (and the Shas). It's called character development.

People bitching about Garrosh being "ruined" because he actually had character development makes me excited about them removing stories from the PTR because I'd rather let them write the game than the community.

There was no way that bomb would be set off and NOT kill civilians. He could have bombed the bridge or the harbor, instead he went for the keep. Either he did not care about killing civilians which would make him inconsistent with Stonetalon Garrosh or he's a moron.

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Garrosh said that. Garrosh.

That's really not an example of a "bad person." Draenei literally enslave their dead in robot bodies. Void Elves & Undead are biologically the same thing. And I've never seen an explanation of how that's somehow worse than what Odyn does. And Calia's about to start making new undead using Saa'ra

Do we have any reason to believe Auchenai constructs are is not created voluntarily?

[huth]

Do we have any reason to believe Auchenai constructs are is not created voluntarily?

No. None of the points make much sense. Garrosh may be an ass, but that doesn't mean he can't be right about things. Void Elves and Undead are not "biologically the same thing" - most Undead are not Elves. And the magic that animates the Undead doesn't fall under biology anyway, so i'm not sure what the point there is to begin with.

Not sure where the thing about Calia comes from, either, or how she could "use" Saa'ra.

[Zharikov]

I never understand why people think Stonetalon Garrosh is such an outlier.

Up until MoP, all his actions in Stonetalon match with his other actions, yes, even Theramore. Theramore was an actual Alliance outpost that has been planning to raze Razor Hall and most of Durotar. It was a valid target and it's not like he purposefully went after civilians.

And come MoP, obviously his character is slowly drifting away from the Stonetalon Garrosh, because the whole expansion is about him getting megalomaniac and being influenced by his bad traits (and the Shas). It's called character development.

People bitching about Garrosh being "ruined" because he actually had character development makes me excited about them removing stories from the PTR because I'd rather let them write the game than the community.

Because he is an outlier. Afrasiabi was in charge of Stonetalon, and deliberately wrote him differently from a way that the narrative team at the time didn't want as a whole. I will admit I liked Stonetalon Garrosh (even if Afrasiabi is a rapist pos and tried to deliberately tank every female character and anything he didn't like: see Teldrassil), but it did lead to a big disconnect from everywhere else he is presented.

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9.2 was awesome though? We finally got back Sylvanas and honestly, the Zereth Mortis lore is actually quite cool. And! They didn't killed off beloved characters. The only bad thing about Shadowlands was the content draughts and the lack of exploration of Zoovals background. Funnily enough, the ending was implied from the start - Sylvanas always said they are doing this for the bigger good, so no clue why people are suddenly surprised. Yes, the Sepulcher finale was too short and missed an epilogue but we got that with the Judgement of Sylvie and we also had the awesome Anduin cinematic a week before.

Btw, I wouldn't be surprised if Danuser actually saved Aszhara from getting killed off. Afrasiabi seemed to like to kill any cool characters afterall.

Yeah, as far as I can tell 9.2 is basically the new team 'picking up the pieces' of what Afrasiabi tried to ruin. I'm very interested to see what else they can do to try and heal over those wounds, from some of what we've datamined about 9.2.5, and eager to likewise see where Dragonflight goes.

[Hitei]

Garrosh said that. Garrosh.

That's really not an example of a "bad person." Draenei literally enslave their dead in robot bodies. Void Elves & Undead are biologically the same thing. And I've never seen an explanation of how that's somehow worse than what Odyn does. And Calia's about to start making new undead using Saa'ra

Sylvanas literally agreed with him and joked back that the difference between them was that she "served the Horde."

[Nymrohd]

No. None of the points make much sense. Garrosh may be an ass, but that doesn't mean he can't be right about things. Void Elves and Undead are not "biologically the same thing" - most Undead are not Elves. And the magic that animates the Undead doesn't fall under biology anyway, so i'm not sure what the point there is to begin with.

Not sure where the thing about Calia comes from, either, or how she could "use" Saa'ra.

If anything I think the intent (at least originally, who knows after Afrasiabi left) was probably to have Saa'ra be an adversary down the line that probably manipulates Calia. "The Light has struck a bargain with the enemy of all" I thought that meant Death back then but it probably means whatever force (probably whatever existed BEFORE the First Ones built this reality) Zovaal was trying to defeat.

[Three Faced Goddess]

That and well its just coincidence and well, characters don't need to be killed off randomly or that fast. Its a waste of potential. (RIP Son of Saurfang all the way back in Wrath).

RIP The Lich King. He will be missed... by me at the very least.

[Alanar]

Sylvanas literally agreed with him and joked back that the difference between them was that she "served the Horde."

The sarcamse and smirks were all over the place tho .

[Ersula]

Not sure where the thing about Calia comes from, either, or how she could "use" Saa'ra.

Yeah its not like theres an encrypted questline involving Saa'ra & Calia on the PTR or anything.

Your attempt at damage control fails because the Argent Crusade, who are objectively good guys, also thought that the Forsaken were acting like the Scourge.

Citation needed.

Do we have any reason to believe Auchenai constructs are is not created voluntarily?

Undeath is voluntary. Unless the Jailer wants you to work for him. But that's really not a factor anymore.

Sylvanas literally agreed with him and joked back that the difference between them was that she "served the Horde."

So she's a self-aware lich queen?

Face it, back when they were led by Sylvanas, no one liked the Forsaken. The Alliance hated them, the rest of the Horde also hated them and kept them as allies only for strategic value, and pretty much everyone sane and good on Azeroth was either wary of them or wanted them gone.

Blood Elves start at friendly with the Forsaken. That's more liked than the other horde races.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I think it probably just shows how poor the oversight is when it comes to lore. Compare it to other fantasy fiction franchises and you can see it's problematic.

Basically. It's like everyone writes their own version of the characters without a solid nor consistent editorial oversight. Garrosh's swerve was just one of the most notorious demonstrations of this, until they one upped it with Sylvanas nonsensical characterization from Legion to BfA*

*and this is not a "noo Sylvanas was never evil!!", it's about the misshandled characterization between point A and B, and then the course correction to C. A *sigh* morally grey character like Sylvanas could have always feasibly go either way, but the botched nature of how they went about it was just egregious. It just screams of a lack of cohesive vision when it comes to characterization and arcs.

Also worth noting that according to old interviews, Stonetalon Garrosh was apparently by Afrasiabi, the team had some sort of miscommunication and they then settled on making him more villainous.

That's what bothers me, the fact that such "miscomunications" happened. No one was really in charge make sure his characterization had consistency, almost as if they were just making it up along the way without an overseeing vision or goal.

[huth]

Yeah its not like theres an encrypted questline involving Saa'ra & Calia on the PTR or anything.

You mean the ones that are encrypted so we have no idea what they're about?

[Makorus]

Because he is an outlier. Afrasiabi was in charge of Stonetalon, and deliberately wrote him differently from a way that the narrative team at the time didn't want as a whole. I will admit I liked Stonetalon Garrosh (even if Afrasiabi is a rapist pos and tried to deliberately tank every female character and anything he didn't like: see Teldrassil), but it did lead to a big disconnect from everywhere else he is presented.

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Yeah, as far as I can tell 9.2 is basically the new team 'picking up the pieces' of what Afrasiabi tried to ruin. I'm very interested to see what else they can do to try and heal over those wounds, from some of what we've datamined about 9.2.5, and eager to likewise see where Dragonflight goes.

Except he is not an outlier at all.

Everything that Stonetalon Garrosh stands for is what Cata Garrosh stands for, and it's what Theramore Garrosh stands for. Of course it doesn't match with what MoP Garrosh stands for, but that's called character development and it's literally what all the MoP quests are about.

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RIP The Lich King. He will be missed... by me at the very least.

They should have killed the Lich King off in Wrath instead of having a shitty "haha there must always be a lich king guys xd" plot twist (if you can even call it that).

People give shit to the Shadowlands ending but that was a Million times worse.

[Sondrelk]

Except he is not an outlier at all.

Everything that Stonetalon Garrosh stands for is what Cata Garrosh stands for, and it's what Theramore Garrosh stands for. Of course it doesn't match with what MoP Garrosh stands for, but that's called character development and it's literally what all the MoP quests are about.

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They should have killed the Lich King off in Wrath instead of having a shitty "haha there must always be a lich king guys xd" plot twist (if you can even call it that).

People give shit to the Shadowlands ending but that was a Million times worse.

The "always a lich king" could probably have worked if it was actually a ploy by the Old Gods as was seemingly hinted at by Yogg-Saron, as well as the Old God music sting during that raid cinematic.

[Zharikov]

Except he is not an outlier at all.

Everything that Stonetalon Garrosh stands for is what Cata Garrosh stands for, and it's what Theramore Garrosh stands for. Of course it doesn't match with what MoP Garrosh stands for, but that's called character development and it's literally what all the MoP quests are about.

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They should have killed the Lich King off in Wrath instead of having a shitty "haha there must always be a lich king guys xd" plot twist (if you can even call it that).

People give shit to the Shadowlands ending but that was a Million times worse.

I mean, say what you will, but even 8 years ago they admit that Stonetalon garrosh was written differently from everything else in Cataclysm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eng...e-azeroth.html

I imagine it's because of the sheer scope of cata and the ridiculous number of quests and arcs they had to write, really, but it was still a disconnect. (honestly, crazy they even did it - compare the number of zone quests they had to do versus how many they typically do in an expansion.)

[Makorus]

I mean, say what you will, but even 8 years ago they admit that Stonetalon garrosh was written differently from everything else in Cataclysm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eng...e-azeroth.html

I imagine it's because of the sheer scope of cata and the ridiculous number of quests and arcs they had to write, really, but it was still a disconnect. (honestly, crazy they even did it - compare the number of zone quests they had to do versus how many they typically do in an expansion.)

Yeah and Afriasabi also stated that Sylvanas actually was 100% behind Wrathgate. Must be all that drinking-at-work stuff and molesting co-workers clouding his memories.

I don't really care what he says. He is not written differently at all. People constantly mention "Oh, he is sooo different in Stonetalon", when he is really not.

Even the interview is like "Oh, it looks like he was going in a different direction!". Was he? In Stonetalon, his only characterization is "is against nuking civilian druids". Nothing he does in Cata or MoP goes against that lmao.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah and Afriasabi also stated that Sylvanas actually was 100% behind Wrathgate. Must be all that drinking-at-work stuff and molesting co-workers clouding his memories.

I don't really care what he says. He is not written differently at all. People constantly mention "Oh, he is sooo different in Stonetalon", when he is really not.

Even the interview is like "Oh, it looks like he was going in a different direction!". Was he? In Stonetalon, his only characterization is "is against nuking civilian druids". Nothing he does in Cata or MoP goes against that lmao.

It is a direct contradiction of his characterization in the MoP pre-patch where he is entirely okay with using a second mana-bomb on a similar town.