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  1. #41
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    The gray bit is California negotiating without force of law because the government cannot coerce private actors to do something it doesn’t have the power to do itself.
    This isn't a grey area, this is you not understanding that "negotiation" and "coercion" imply opposite things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    The gray bit is California negotiating without force of law because the government cannot coerce private actors to do something it doesn’t have the power to do itself. Whether or not the judge will agree with the argument that the manufacturers were acting as proxies for the California state government is the unknown factor. As I said I don’t think that’s the case but it’s part of the basis of the suit.
    Seems like they were acting in their own capitalist interests given negotiations with the state with the biggest number of registered vehicles. CA has over 14M registered vehicles, just a bit under the combined total of the second and third highest states - TX and FL which combine their 8/7M respectively for 15M.

    Now registrations aren't sales, but it speaks to the size of the market. If it's cheaper for them to design around the state-imposed regulations in the largest market, them's the breaks. And if other states don't like it, it sounds a lot like they just don't like capitalism when it doesn't cater to their interests.

    Capitalism is not, and has never been, "fair".

  3. #43
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    The gray bit is California negotiating without force of law because the government cannot coerce private actors to do something it doesn’t have the power to do itself. Whether or not the judge will agree with the argument that the manufacturers were acting as proxies for the California state government is the unknown factor. As I said I don’t think that’s the case but it’s part of the basis of the suit.
    There's nothing "gray" here.

    California's ACC program doesn't establish standards for anywhere but California.

    They absolutely do have the State authority to pass such laws (which is all "coercion" means, in your post; that they passed a regulation that has force of law).

    The argument that manufacturers are "acting as proxies for the Cali state government" is fucking ridiculous; they produce the products they want to produce, and that's that. Nobody's forcing any manufacturer to only manufacture to California's standards; they individually choose to, because doing so saves them money and is better for the environment anyway. There's no gains to be had in making a worse vehicle.

    I can’t think of a single entry level position (of which there are a lot of openings in my market) that pays anywhere near close to minimum wage. Most are at least double if not more. Does it mean zero jobs pay minimum wage? I don’t know for certain, but with the plethora of openings requiring zero education or experience while also offering benefits beyond the wage it’s not the state’s fault at that point that you’re not being paid more where I’m living and it’s hardly one of the expensive markets like New York or LA.

    Maybe you’re calling for wages above and beyond more than double the current minimum, but anything less than that would have zero effect in many markets.
    A minimum living wage should be the standard. While I haven't seen that adjusted for the last couple years of high inflation, that was north of $20/hour back in ~2019. Probably closer to $25 or more, now.

    And if your issue as a State is "our citizens can't afford to keep up with cost of living", then yeah; it's entirely the State's fault for setting the minimum wage levels so low that that's a problem to begin with.


  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Seems like they were acting in their own capitalist interests given negotiations with the state with the biggest number of registered vehicles. CA has over 14M registered vehicles, just a bit under the combined total of the second and third highest states - TX and FL which combine their 8/7M respectively for 15M.

    Now registrations aren't sales, but it speaks to the size of the market. If it's cheaper for them to design around the state-imposed regulations in the largest market, them's the breaks. And if other states don't like it, it sounds a lot like they just don't like capitalism when it doesn't cater to their interests.

    Capitalism is not, and has never been, "fair".
    It is ironic that the same people screaming "States Rights!" on other issues take issue with said States rights. Someone should tell those people complaining that why don't the state governments that have issue with this try and get the car manufacturers to build cars in their states to their standards? Do what all municipalities do and entice them with tax breaks or other things if they did it.

    But that would require their legislatures to do anything more then bitch about something or pass laws that restrict stuff.

  5. #45
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Seems like they were acting in their own capitalist interests given negotiations with the state with the biggest number of registered vehicles. CA has over 14M registered vehicles, just a bit under the combined total of the second and third highest states - TX and FL which combine their 8/7M respectively for 15M.

    Now registrations aren't sales, but it speaks to the size of the market. If it's cheaper for them to design around the state-imposed regulations in the largest market, them's the breaks. And if other states don't like it, it sounds a lot like they just don't like capitalism when it doesn't cater to their interests.

    Capitalism is not, and has never been, "fair".
    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    It is ironic that the same people screaming "States Rights!" on other issues take issue with said States rights. Someone should tell those people complaining that why don't the state governments that have issue with this try and get the car manufacturers to build cars in their states to their standards? Do what all municipalities do and entice them with tax breaks or other things if they did it.

    But that would require their legislatures to do anything more then bitch about something or pass laws that restrict stuff.


    The GOP's interest in "capitalism" and "state's rights" is solely based on whether they can use it to justify their own apathy or not.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2022-05-15 at 11:11 PM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  6. #46
    I am Murloc!
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    I wonder if lower vehicle emission standard is “‘deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition’”. We should ask Alito.

  7. #47
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    I wonder if lower vehicle emission standard is “‘deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition’”. We should ask Alito.
    Well you see, California passing laws that allow them to set emission standards for cars to be sold in their their own state obviously infringes upon the rights of other states who might have to buy the cars that the manufacturers chose to make to California standards. Now, those standards, if anything, will be better than those in other states, but they don't want those egghead elitists telling them what to do! It infringes upon their constitutional rights!

    Meanwhile, a woman that gets an abortion in a state where it's legal to do so should absolutely be subject to the laws of states that say otherwise, because clearly it infringes upon the state's rights to know that a woman got an abortion somewhere.


    And if that all sounds unilateral, hypocritical, and twisting any pissant justification to push a self-serving, biased sense of morality... congratulations, you're beginning to understand the conservative mindset.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  8. #48
    I am Murloc!
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    This situation kinda make me think on the situation the UK post Brexit find itself.

    By leaving the European Union, the UK can lower, should it decides, their safety or emission standard. But it would be for naught because the UK car manufacturers will never lower their standards, if they still want to sell cars in EU that is.
    And since it would unthinkably expensive to have 2 lines of production, in effect it means the EU will set the standard for the UK, brexit or not, by the power of capitalism.

    So in this situation it is similar, California will set the standard for the entire nation*

    * with the caveat that cars that didn't pass inspection for California could still be sold in other states, possibly at lower price.
    Last edited by Vankrys; 2022-05-15 at 11:40 PM.

  9. #49
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    I wonder if lower vehicle emission standard is “‘deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition’”. We should ask Alito.
    This was the most bullshit thing ever written on fucking paper by a Supreme Court Justice.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Remember kids.

    When states want to pass regulations to facilitate the abuse of women and minorities:



    When states want to pass environmental regulations in excess of federal law:
    State rights for me and not for thee. The motto of the American right dating back to slavery days when the southern states pushed laws for their right to have slaves but also to deny the rights of abolitionist states to harbour freed slaves.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This was the most bullshit thing ever written on fucking paper by a Supreme Court Justice.
    Bullshit definitely, not sure if it beats Barrett’s saying that it is the job of the women to provide for America’s demand for infants.

    I mean with his those who didn’t know the guy they were mentioning might not know how fucked up they were going but with her stuff their is no level of ignorance you can feign with something so fucked up and direct.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    "Ask a socialist why they hate capitalism, and they'll give you a myriad of reasons. Ask a capitalist why they hate socialism and they'll describe capitalism."
    Or they just say Stalin killed 800 million people, and that "proves" socialism doesn't work.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Bullshit definitely, not sure if it beats Barrett’s saying that it is the job of the women to provide for America’s demand for infants.

    I mean with his those who didn’t know the guy they were mentioning might not know how fucked up they were going but with her stuff their is no level of ignorance you can feign with something so fucked up and direct.
    I am pretty sure referencing colonial English legal writers who thought rape and burning witches was totally fine tops that. It's pretty clear we are dealing with some ISIS level nut jobs in the supreme court.

  14. #54
    States' rights!!! NO...not like that!!!

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I am pretty sure referencing colonial English legal writers who thought rape and burning witches was totally fine tops that. It's pretty clear we are dealing with some ISIS level nut jobs in the supreme court.
    I was meaning that there is no level of feigning ignorance of what she was actually saying.

    With the other guy, while what they were saying was more screwed up, it was wrapped up in such a way you had to actually research and know who they were referencing to pick up on it.

    Someone reading his can miss it because they didn’t know whom they were referencing, hers wore her crazy and hatred on her sleeves.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Where California leads, the rest of the states (10-20 years later) follow.
    So we're all going to be running out of water in 10-20 years. Nah, it'll probably take a few more years than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    So we're all going to be running out of water in 10-20 years. Nah, it'll probably take a few more years than that.
    To that, I have this to say.

    Desperate Lawmakers Discuss Piping Ocean Water to Fill Great Salt Lake

    A legislative commission in Utah has given the green light to study several strategies to help with the worryingly low levels of water in the Great Salt Lake—including potentially building a pipeline to carry water over land from the Pacific Ocean. The study to determine “the feasibility and cost of piping water from the ocean to help fill the Great Salt Lake” was approved as part of a master list of other initiatives during a session of the state’s Legislative Water Development Commission held Tuesday.

    “There’s a lot of water in the ocean, and we have very little in the Great Salt Lake,” Sen. David Hinkins (R), the commission’s co-chair, said during the meeting. That is… true!


    To quote Homer, "Doh!"

    The potential pipeline would have a pretty arduous journey. The Great Salt Lake is, as the crow flies, some 600 miles away from the Pacific Coast. Any possible pipeline would almost certainly have to cross the Sierra Nevada mountains, as well as pass through both California and Nevada before getting to the lake. Lawmakers in the session acknowledged that the plan’s cost could be in the billions.


    Don't forget 4,700 feet of elevation gain and pushing the water up the Sierra Nevada (elevation 14,000 feet). Maybe tunnel through the Sierra Nevada?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Alrighty, so lemme get this straight... current GOP mindset is:


    1) federal should protect the interests of drivers, so that they aren't being strong-armed by laws in different states into buying cars that are more efficient than they care about.

    2) federal law should not protect the rights of women, and states should be allowed to decide whether they're oppressed or not. And even then states that don't allow the oppression should ultimately still be subject to states that do, and allow those oppressive states to seek bounties or punish women for activities that happen in other states.


    Do I have that about right?




    This is more evidence of "California being such a powerhouse of a state that they don't have to give a fuck what the GOP think, say, or do" that pisses them off. Strongest economy in the country, running on a budget surplus, able to use its capitalistic soft power to determine policy the nation over, and it's run by liberals?! The GOP can't have other states seeing that!
    Do forget conservatards are also bitching about gas prices so better miles per gallon should be something they want...oh wait, oil producing states, figures. Never mind.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Don't forget 4,700 feet of elevation gain and pushing the water up the Sierra Nevada (elevation 14,000 feet). Maybe tunnel through the Sierra Nevada?
    This reminds me of the discussion a while back about pumping water from the great lakes to cali. I can't remember who was trying to push that BS, but there were a couple of people in some thread a while back. Think you were reading it, but for sure you weren't pushing that nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  20. #60
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Ah, yes, Republicans.

    Love how they're so worried about "state's rights" over stupid car sales, but when it comes to an individual's rights to bodily autonomy? LOL FUCK YOU
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
    2023: "What's with all these massively successful games with ugly (realistic) women? How could this have happened?!"

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