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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Oh my god. Thank you for this. I'm a longtime feminist who is happy to wear the label of SJW and I'm just disgusted by Blizzard and their promoting this stupid thing. I can hardly express how great it is to find someone who operates with my particular world view and who so eloquently expresses everything that is so, so wrong with this idiotic 'diversity space tool'.

  2. #462
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    The issue with her response is that she then agreed with the tool.
    "We don't need that kind of tool, devs have eyes...

    (...to do exactly what the tool does, but with rough impressions instead of numbers)"
    There's a difference between a formulaic diversity skill graph which tokenizes and a diverse team of people keeping diversity in mind when developing characters.

    Part of the tool's specifically intended capability is making it easier to see where personal biases have unknowingly created caricatures that the creator didn't process as being a caricature. Like for example, the Mexican hero being a former cartel member, or the Brazilian one being from a favela, or the Australian ones being insane criminals, and the two Japanese ones being different flavors of ancient ninja/samurai and Yakuza, and the two Egyptian heroes being absolutely covered in ancient Egypt memes.
    Sure, because it's based on the Power Flower, which was made for exercises in which you evaluate your own ascribed and inherent traits in order to evaluate your privilege. That said, the tool, as we have seen it, does not have the nuance required to accurately assess these things, and the Power Flower concept was not made for this purpose.

    People, with eyes, are liable to inject their preconceived notions and assumptions about who someone is based on their race or where they are from.
    The tool doesn't change this. It lets you score the character concepts on a preset scale (appears to be from 0 - 10), but it appears to have a very limited set of traits which can be evaluated. Moreover, how you scale the character will be dependent on your personal biases.

    Easy to see when the data is right there in front of you in numbers and plots and graphs.
    Less easy to see when you're just spitballing ideas and not necessarily thinking about how your ideas are falling into your own biases.
    It's a fair point to say that it might help a person consider their own biases, as it could act as a period for self reflection; however, having a staff with a diverse set of backgrounds and opinions that frequently discuss their ideas would also help and could more easily be built into the typical workday.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  3. #463
    Peak clown world.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Azax View Post
    Peak clown world.
    So Far - the peak SO FAR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  5. #465
    It has gotten to a point where they have to create a visual graph to help ensure video game characters are the exact opposite of straight, white, male arch type (unless they’re depicted as the villain).

  6. #466
    Who asked for this?

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The person who immediately shifted to a bevy of ad hominems when challenged to actually substantiate statements like "minority opinions are required to be taken as gospel", "workplace DEI initiatives and NGO recommendations are the same thing as Jim Crow", "not being a judgmental asshole at work doesn't bode well for the future", and "acknowledging there's a power disparity between demographics in the context of assessing what constitutes hate speech is the same sort of thing that caused the Holocaust" is calling someone else bad faith poster, huh?

    I'm feeling that the circus is intensifying in this Chili's tonight.



    I thought that sometimes you need to be critical of someone's appearance?
    Ad hominem is used when you insult someone instead of attacking their argument. I didn't insult you at all, I was just trying to verify your level of intellectual honesty for the purpose of the conversation. Considering every single point you are presenting of my argument here is a mischaracterization, and this is a public forum where you simply have to go back and read what I said again. It hasn't changed, and it's still sitting back there clear as day for you to make valid arguments against rather than "nuh-uh, you're wrong", "That's not REAL evidence", and "you're just comparing it to the hololololocaust".

    Again, I'm more than happy to have a discussion if you want to go back and actually respond to what I actually wrote, but I'm not going to sit here and constantly correct you on what I actually said. This is a written forum, you are more than capable of going back yourself to see that you misread my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You can take it up with the entire mental health profession if you want, but that's how all dysphoria is diagnosed. You no longer have dysphoria when the distress is gone. Dysphoria, of all types, is defined by the distress (as are most mental illnesses actually). It is rich for you to claim that other people are denying how mental health works while you claim you know better how diagnoses work than the DSM does.
    It's no longer considered a disorder, but it doesn't mean that it goes away and you're suddenly cured. The whole point of calling it a disorder is that it is interfering in your life, not that it magically disappears.

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's exactly the point. Transgender people aren't asking to be identified biologically as the opposite sex. They are asking to be identified socially as the opposite gender.
    And that is exactly the problem. Social acceptance as being a different gender means that you get access to those social programs intended for the different gender. It's one thing if we are talking about how you get treated by customer service. It's quite another when we are talking about scholarships, sports, medicine, bathrooms, and prisons as just a few examples.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    It's no longer considered a disorder, but it doesn't mean that it goes away and you're suddenly cured. The whole point of calling it a disorder is that it is interfering in your life, not that it magically disappears.
    When the source of the distress is addressed, you no longer have the disorder. The fact is that the mental health community has almost unanimously agreed that transition and acceptance is the best treatment for gender dysphoria, and you (while claiming to be the one who cares about science and mental health) wish to deny people the treatment.

    And that is exactly the problem. Social acceptance as being a different gender means that you get access to those social programs intended for the different gender. It's one thing if we are talking about how you get treated by customer service. It's quite another when we are talking about scholarships, sports, medicine, bathrooms, and prisons as just a few examples.
    Social programs are for social categories, so what is your point?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Ad hominem is used when you insult someone instead of attacking their argument. I didn't insult you at all, I was just trying to verify your level of intellectual honesty for the purpose of the conversation. Considering every single point you are presenting of my argument here is a mischaracterization, and this is a public forum where you simply have to go back and read what I said again. It hasn't changed, and it's still sitting back there clear as day for you to make valid arguments against rather than "nuh-uh, you're wrong", "That's not REAL evidence", and "you're just comparing it to the hololololocaust".
    You compared a voluntary system that some companies developed on their own for regulating the content of commercials... to a system that oppressed an entire race of people leading to lynchings where they were dismembered alive. The fact is that you think white hurt feelings are comparable to black torture and terror, which demonstrates a profound (almost pathological) disdain for black people.

    This is like you saying "My sister was kidnapped, raped, tortured, and burned alive" and I said "Yeah, I completely get it because I got dumped by a girl once so I know pain too".
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #469
    Swear this thread is full of people trying to sounds smart. But I'm looking at this diversity graph and I can't believe this is real LOL. I wanna plug myself into this chart

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by ketsui View Post
    Swear this thread is full of people trying to sounds smart. But I'm looking at this diversity graph and I can't believe this is real LOL. I wanna plug myself into this chart
    Are you:

    Able bodied?

    Straight?

    Male?

    And what’s your race?

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    When the source of the distress is addressed, you no longer have the disorder. The fact is that the mental health community has almost unanimously agreed that transition and acceptance is the best treatment for gender dysphoria, and you (while claiming to be the one who cares about science and mental health) wish to deny people the treatment.
    You really don't understand psychology at all, do you? You don't get cured of gender dysphoria, you cure the symptoms. It stays in your medical history forever because it's an important factor in any potential further treatments or disorders. Just like when you get a cold, and the cold goes away, your body still keeps a biological record in your T and B cells that knows that you have had a cold and will directly affect the next cold you get. This is simple biology here, like 6th grade level. You don't cure dysphoria, you treat the symptoms so that it no longer interferes with your life. You don't say someone with schizophrenia is cured just because they are on their pills and are able to manage their life, they still have it. How many ways do you want me to say this? I can keep going.

    Social programs are for social categories, so what is your point?
    Sure, eliminate sex categories in order to please peoples personal delusions. Gotcha, good luck getting the rest of the country on board with that.

    You compared a voluntary system that some companies developed on their own for regulating the content of commercials... to a system that oppressed an entire race of people leading to lynchings where they were dismembered alive. The fact is that you think white hurt feelings are comparable to black torture and terror, which demonstrates a profound (almost pathological) disdain for black people.
    I say the same to you, If you want to have a conversation I am more than willing. But at least go back and read exactly what I wrote and how I phrased it, because I did so very carefully. If you want someone to straw man, then do it to someone else because I refuse to engage further with people who are obviously acting in bad faith.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    When the source of the distress is addressed, you no longer have the disorder. The fact is that the mental health community has almost unanimously agreed that transition and acceptance is the best treatment for gender dysphoria, and you (while claiming to be the one who cares about science and mental health) wish to deny people the treatment.
    Eh, you're Appealing to Authority on this one. It's a logical fallacy.

    Fun fact: in the 1800s there was a lone doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis who discovered that washing hands in-between handling patients would be beneficial (as we know today) and yet the other members of the medical community shunned him and he lost his job. Were they right? No. In the 1900s it was thought to be a good cure to deal with victims of mental health by cutting out chunks of their brain. Thousands of doctors did this practice while only a minority of doctors spoke against it. Again, were they correct?

    Just because the majority believe something to be true, doesn't mean it is.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    You really don't understand psychology at all, do you? You don't get cured of gender dysphoria, you cure the symptoms. It stays in your medical history forever because it's an important factor in any potential further treatments or disorders. Just like when you get a cold, and the cold goes away, your body still keeps a biological record in your T and B cells that knows that you have had a cold and will directly affect the next cold you get. This is simple biology here, like 6th grade level. You don't cure dysphoria, you treat the symptoms so that it no longer interferes with your life. You don't say someone with schizophrenia is cured just because they are on their pills and are able to manage their life, they still have it. How many ways do you want me to say this? I can keep going.
    A diagnosis of gender dysphoria REQUIRES ongoing "distress or impairment". Schizophrenia has a categorization of remission with separate criteria. Gender dysphoria does not. But yeah, I'm the one who doesn't understand psychology.

    Sure, eliminate sex categories in order to please peoples personal delusions. Gotcha, good luck getting the rest of the country on board with that.
    Delusion and dysphoria are not the same thing, but as usual we see you declaring that you know more than the mental health community. I am recommended we do what the mental health community recommends. You are demanding that we ignore them, while simultaneously telling everyone else they don't understand psychology.

    I say the same to you, If you want to have a conversation I am more than willing. But at least go back and read exactly what I wrote and how I phrased it, because I did so very carefully. If you want someone to straw man, then do it to someone else because I refuse to engage further with people who are obviously acting in bad faith.
    I saw how you phrased it. That's why your are just whining now, because people like you always whine when cornered. The fact is that you compared your precious hurt feelings to a century of rape, murder, and torture. You are despicable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Eh, you're Appealing to Authority on this one. It's a logical fallacy.

    Fun fact: in the 1800s there was a lone doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis who discovered that washing hands in-between handling patients would be beneficial (as we know today) and yet the other members of the medical community shunned him and he lost his job. Were they right? No. In the 1900s it was thought to be a good cure to deal with victims of mental health by cutting out chunks of their brain. Thousands of doctors did this practice while only a minority of doctors spoke against it. Again, were they correct?

    Just because the majority believe something to be true, doesn't mean it is.
    The authorities in this case have based their recommendations on copious amounts of evidence that transition and acceptance leads to positive health outcomes. I can produce that evidence if you'd like.

    Your argument here may seem smart to you, but its indistinguishable from "Sure, the doctors say I shouldn't drink motor oil to treat my cold, but they were wrong about washing hands in the 19th century, so maybe I'm right!"
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  14. #474
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilela View Post
    Re: The Ardenweald thing:

    https://twitter.com/KateMakesStuff/s...72318241198084

    You're welcome to interpret it however you'd like.

    That said, while yes, there's no objective end-all be-all for what is "more diverse" is, it's not entirely outlandish for a somewhat broad consensus to exist, and what makes something "more" or "less" diverse could change along with society itself. So again, I wouldn't be surprised if this was used as a prototypical groundwork for companies to pick up in the future, if not for attempting to turn everything, and everyone, into data points.
    given that they say speakers and there a quest sec id assume they are talking about voice acted rolls.

    And while stuff like this may be developed and put into play by suits in company’s no actual dev who wants real diversity and not to just use it as marketing hype is gonna want to break people down to data points.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #475
    Before this thread get's locked again due to all these needless sideshow war theatres, I just wanted to mention that ABKs marketing/pr department is truly a lost cause. As someone mentioned on the first page and I mentioned in the first thread on here, I'm sure other studios are as depraved and morally/intelligently/creatively bankrupt as Blizzard, but they are smart enough to never let anyone talk about in public. Those that do probably NDA the shit out of people just to make sure. It's truly stunning how pointless and flat out detrimental ABK's PR teams are. All that's missing ist that they try to patent it to go full on evil here.
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  16. #476
    Blizzard I invite you to our beautiful country of germany.

    Let's talk about some history.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Eh, you're Appealing to Authority on this one. It's a logical fallacy.

    Fun fact: in the 1800s there was a lone doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis who discovered that washing hands in-between handling patients would be beneficial (as we know today) and yet the other members of the medical community shunned him and he lost his job. Were they right? No. In the 1900s it was thought to be a good cure to deal with victims of mental health by cutting out chunks of their brain. Thousands of doctors did this practice while only a minority of doctors spoke against it. Again, were they correct?

    Just because the majority believe something to be true, doesn't mean it is.
    Well said, also; leeches, taking tonsils out, over diagnosis and over medication of ADD, Thalidomide(80,000 babies died), Vioxx( a pain killer that killed 60,000 people). Maybe...just maybe....Doctors like to make a lot of money...

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    Well said, also; leeches, taking tonsils out, over diagnosis and over medication of ADD, Thalidomide(80,000 babies died), Vioxx( a pain killer that killed 60,000 people). Maybe...just maybe....Doctors like to make a lot of money...
    Go do the opposite of what doctors and scientist say to do and see how that works out. And then tell Steve Jobs I said hi.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  19. #479
    Mechagnome Chilela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    given that they say speakers and there a quest sec id assume they are talking about voice acted rolls.

    And while stuff like this may be developed and put into play by suits in company’s no actual dev who wants real diversity and not to just use it as marketing hype is gonna want to break people down to data points.
    I had noticed that as well when I went back to dig that up, but the general point still stands, that being that there are those that view representation as a numbers game. Does this necessarily mean that we'll start seeing a system similar to the DST implemented? Maybe, maybe not. The fact that people on both sides consider it to be ridiculous is a positive sign that they may shy away from something that doesn't benefit either camp.

  20. #480
    For now this is considered dystopian. But as the Overton window shifts even more, one day it will be "regressive" to not evaluate people using this diversity tool. 10 years ago you didn't see corporations pandering so hard on a variety of social issues, but that has changed a lot in a short amount of time. In less than 5 years, it will be a fire able offense to not advocate for the diversity tool and it will be ban worthy on social media to criticize it.

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