What do you think the future of the Forsaken will be under Calia Menethil? [Spoilers]

[Lolites]

I would rather they delete the Forsaken then have this fake undead take over.

this, she is not forsaken and never was, and she is sister of Arthas, who is responsible for death of every one of them (or almost), why on earth would they want her as leader?!
maybe if she joined forsaken and cut ties with alliance then MAYBE in a decade she could be considered for leadership, until then it would be stupid as hell

[Nathreim]

I honestly hope she tries to be all hope and light and in the middle of her grand speech the forsaken just kill her.

[VladlTutushkin]

I honestly hope she tries to be all hope and light and in the middle of her grand speech the forsaken just kill her.

You realise they will end up dead as a race if they dont calm their asses down and run a hardcore “we wuz tricked” PR campaign?

Orcs use Thrall for that, forsaken need Calia.

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this, she is not forsaken and never was, and she is sister of Arthas, who is responsible for death of every one of them (or almost), why on earth would they want her as leader?!
maybe if she joined forsaken and cut ties with alliance then MAYBE in a decade she could be considered for leadership, until then it would be stupid as hell

Dont you love that sweet, delicious RENEWAL? And FORGIVENESS? With a side of HEALING?

Tell me , does that hurt?

[Raisei]

After all the shit the Forsaken have pulled under Sylvanas this is literally the only halve-logical way for them to keep on existing. Without a new and better leader the race should be wiped out for all the crimes it has commited.
It was always a mistake to make Scourge playable and the logical hoops that needed to be jumped for both Alliance and Horde to allow their continued existence were by far too big.
Maybe Calia can redeem them, but we already know that some of them are still wishing for their genocidal Sylvanas back and will very likely not accept a leader that doesn't allow random blighting and murder. So there will have to be a purge.

[Tanaria]

It's like trying to replace Azshara for the Naga. If she's gone, you just have to move on and redefine what it means to be a Naga for changes to make sense. Trying to half ass that while also preserving the antithesis of Calia in Forsaken identity is strange to me.

I've always said - what Blizzard succeeded in with the Naga is that they didn't need Azshara to appear in every Naga-lore moment. We had Lady Vashj, Lady S'theno, Lady Naz'jar - Azshara's presence wasn't needed.

Blizzard created some brilliant Elven Dark Ranger characters, but have only recently, have expanded on one (Velonara) and her thoughts after Sylvanas left the Horde. Now, the Forsaken fanbase has become so reliant on Sylvanas, that it feels the story can't go anywhere without her. I fear the same is happening with the Night Elves and Tyrande.

The Naga are a race that shows that you don't need the core leader to be involved all the time. Create other characters and the race still works.

[Rozz]

I've always said - what Blizzard succeeded in with the Naga is that they didn't need Azshara to appear in every Naga-lore moment. We had Lady Vashj, Lady S'theno, Lady Naz'jar - Azshara's presence wasn't needed.

Blizzard created some brilliant Elven Dark Ranger characters, but have only recently, have expanded on one (Velonara) and her thoughts after Sylvanas left the Horde. Now, the Forsaken fanbase has become so reliant on Sylvanas, that it feels the story can't go anywhere without her. I fear the same is happening with the Night Elves and Tyrande.

The Naga are a race that shows that you don't need the core leader to be involved all the time. Create other characters and the race still works.

That's fair. I suppose lore-wise the Naga are all about Azshara but in terms of their perception, she might as well be Elune. An important but unnecessary presence for the player's understanding of the race. Meanwhile Sylvanas is all consuming in their lore and presentation.

The split was needed for their evolution but they can't really pull punches to make it believable. Calia just isn't Forsaken (which is the point she's made many times in her quest to understand them) but she is an example of what they should strive for in order to coexist with the living. However, having her so easily accepted by Voss of all people is strange when even Talanji (beloved and idealistic by Zandalari metrics) had to deal with several attempts on her life.

The other issue I have is that Calia's potential for them just feels too 'Alliance' in nature. If she's in charge I don't expect to see a rag-tag race of zombies, I expect to see sobbing human zombies acting like spurned refugees until Alliance humans warm up to them. If they were a group just recently introduced (a group of undead under Calia) I'd expect them to be an Alliance allied race, because if Calia had her way there would be nothing but light-infused noble zombies. I don't get the same sense of misguided resentment, dread, and anger towards their situation and life. Similar to how the BEs kinda lost their edge the second they got the Sunwell back and the only reason they didn't rejoin the Alliance was due to Dalaran.

[Powerogue]

I still don't know where they should put Calia besides that I want them to utilize the contrast between her and Voss's perspectives for interesting story conflict...

...and I want them to update the halloween event now that Undercity is destroyed and Sylvanas isn't leading it so that both factions are burning a giant Wicker-Sylvanas together. "We may still hate each other, but the one thing we can agree on is screw that hag. Happy Hallow's End!"

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I honestly hope she tries to be all hope and light and in the middle of her grand speech the forsaken just kill her.

Calia Menethil on a podium: And that's why as your new leader I propose peace and-
Fors Aiken: BOOO! GET OFF THE STAGE! * throws a half-eaten brain at her *
Calia: Oh my, who's brain was that?
Fors Aiken: The last guy who tried to preach love and peace to us!
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=132643/fors-aitken#comments (yes he's a real forsaken npc)

[Nathreim]

You realise they will end up dead as a race if they dont calm their asses down and run a hardcore “we wuz tricked” PR campaign?

Orcs use Thrall for that, forsaken need Calia.

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They don't need her she brings nothing to the table. She was never taught to rule or lead anyone and she has no necromancy so she cant even help keep the Forsaken going. All she is is a mid level priest who abandoned her own people and did nothing for a decade but hide.

[Grazrug]

Calia is nothing. Just an enigma without story. She is no Forsaken. She needs to be killed before she can ruin the undead.

[VladlTutushkin]

Calia is nothing. Just an enigma without story. She is no Forsaken. She needs to be killed before she can ruin the undead.

Nah, she needs to show you what it feels like to “choose renewal” again and again.

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They don't need her she brings nothing to the table. She was never taught to rule or lead anyone and she has no necromancy so she cant even help keep the Forsaken going. All she is is a mid level priest who abandoned her own people and did nothing for a decade but hide.

But she supposedly “powerful”. Isnt that what you always wanted? I bet she will be quite a “powerhouse character”.

Oh wait she is also useless and turns your racial themes into a joke? Oh my where have i seen that before…

In Alliance. EVERY EXPANSION.

Your turn now. Dont cry, we warned ya.

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That's fair. I suppose lore-wise the Naga are all about Azshara but in terms of their perception, she might as well be Elune. An important but unnecessary presence for the player's understanding of the race. Meanwhile Sylvanas is all consuming in their lore and presentation.

The split was needed for their evolution but they can't really pull punches to make it believable. Calia just isn't Forsaken (which is the point she's made many times in her quest to understand them) but she is an example of what they should strive for in order to coexist with the living. However, having her so easily accepted by Voss of all people is strange when even Talanji (beloved and idealistic by Zandalari metrics) had to deal with several attempts on her life.

The other issue I have is that Calia's potential for them just feels too 'Alliance' in nature. If she's in charge I don't expect to see a rag-tag race of zombies, I expect to see sobbing human zombies acting like spurned refugees until Alliance humans warm up to them. If they were a group just recently introduced (a group of undead under Calia) I'd expect them to be an Alliance allied race, because if Calia had her way there would be nothing but light-infused noble zombies. I don't get the same sense of misguided resentment, dread, and anger towards their situation and life. Similar to how the BEs kinda lost their edge the second they got the Sunwell back and the only reason they didn't rejoin the Alliance was due to Dalaran.

Well Blizz wanted to keep Horde “cool” for years by not allowing Alliance to do anything to you. So now they can only “slow down” on faction war by defanging the Horde since Alliance was already not participating in this “war”.

Hence why you get Calia and etc.

All. Your. Fault. Its a pendulum of bad plot decisions, and it came back swinging.

[Ardenaso]

Calia's more like a leader for the Argents, not the Forsaken

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but I doubt they'd want her around since she wasn't there when they needed a royal figure as morale boost

[Magical Mudcrab]

but I doubt they'd want her around since she wasn't there when they needed a royal figure as morale boost

She also fled Lordaeron to escape the Scourge, leaving her people to their fate. I don't understand why the Forsaken would even want her, instead of looking to self governance once again through an entity like the Desolate Council (which was another thing Calia ruined, giving Sylvanas justification for disbanding it and killing the members).

[bloodmoth13]

Im very apprehensive.
I cant help but feel she will turn up as some self righteous cunt that will lecture all of the forsaken on goodness TM and they will all regret everything they ever did.

Its really hard to stand up for the forsaken since they were defined so strongly by sylvanas, she was effectively their entire story and depending on what patch or expansion they were either interesting or terrible. Sylvanas's story turned into absolute garbage at the end unfortunately so its hard to say what you liked about the old forsaken because the mistreated victim concept was entirely retroactively destroyed by sylvanas's actions.

I find her very unconvincing as a leader, being raised as hideous undead that is rotting and stitched together is something completely different to the ressurection by the light she received. The name 'forsaken' came about because they were 'forsaken by the light' which calia clearly was NOT. so calia is not and never will be 'forsaken' even if she is the leader.
I just cant help but think of the steve buscemi meme 'hey there fellow forsaken!', like shes clearly different.

Her acting as a leader is definitely premature, her even being accepted or ALLOWED into forsaken territory is already a travesty, she shouldnt be anywhere close to the horde at this stage and her introduction should have been handled EXTREMELY cautiously.
I dont mind her as a leader after some development, shes a good choice for a leader after all, but she really feels like a square peg in a round hole atm. Unless there is some serious lore development with 'the light' and the forsaken i dont think she should have anything to do with them.

Hell the light is supposed to feel extremely toxic to undead, her mere presence should alienate any forsaken nearby and there should be a strong mistrust and dislike towards her from normal forsaken.

[guro-tchai]

a beautiful thread.

the future of the Forsaken is bright, of course. remember their SL alpha description, something something protect the living? it was replaced - but people who wrote that weren't. in fact, they are only stronger by now. they fully support uniforming all races, and the Forsaken are too different to be tolerated. they are literally cannibalistic humanoid underground dwellers, and the anti-chud aktion is now in full swing. as one of the prominent figures of the movement put it, "Theres a real simple solution: go play something else"

btw, while at it, they could correct some other cultures. DF could force them to reread some of the older lore, like who ordered the rape of Alexstasza? naming a city after him is indeed not very wholesomerino 100.

[VladlTutushkin]

a beautiful thread.

the future of the Forsaken is bright, of course. remember their SL alpha description, something something protect the living? it was replaced - but people who wrote that weren't. in fact, they are only stronger by now. they fully support uniforming all races, and the Forsaken are too different to be tolerated. they are literally cannibalistic humanoid underground dwellers, and the anti-chud aktion is now in full swing. as one of the prominent figures of the movement put it, "Theres a real simple solution: go play something else"

btw, while at it, they could correct some other cultures. DF could force them to reread some of the older lore, like who ordered the rape of Alexstasza? naming a city after him is indeed not very wholesomerino 100.

Alliance players warned you of this years ago. And what we got back then? "Oh it cant be THIS bad, you just whining."

Now look at this, look at this...

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Im very apprehensive.
I cant help but feel she will turn up as some self righteous cunt that will lecture all of the forsaken on goodness TM and they will all regret everything they ever did.

Its really hard to stand up for the forsaken since they were defined so strongly by sylvanas, she was effectively their entire story and depending on what patch or expansion they were either interesting or terrible. Sylvanas's story turned into absolute garbage at the end unfortunately so its hard to say what you liked about the old forsaken because the mistreated victim concept was entirely retroactively destroyed by sylvanas's actions.

I find her very unconvincing as a leader, being raised as hideous undead that is rotting and stitched together is something completely different to the ressurection by the light she received. The name 'forsaken' came about because they were 'forsaken by the light' which calia clearly was NOT. so calia is not and never will be 'forsaken' even if she is the leader.
I just cant help but think of the steve buscemi meme 'hey there fellow forsaken!', like shes clearly different.

Her acting as a leader is definitely premature, her even being accepted or ALLOWED into forsaken territory is already a travesty, she shouldnt be anywhere close to the horde at this stage and her introduction should have been handled EXTREMELY cautiously.
I dont mind her as a leader after some development, shes a good choice for a leader after all, but she really feels like a square peg in a round hole atm. Unless there is some serious lore development with 'the light' and the forsaken i dont think she should have anything to do with them.

Hell the light is supposed to feel extremely toxic to undead, her mere presence should alienate any forsaken nearby and there should be a strong mistrust and dislike towards her from normal forsaken.

Forsaken just not in position to tell anything to anyone, best they can do now is lower their heads to avoid them being cut off, plain and simple. They bear all of Sylvanas fuckups and have none of her power, so that checks.

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She also fled Lordaeron to escape the Scourge, leaving her people to their fate. I don't understand why the Forsaken would even want her, instead of looking to self governance once again through an entity like the Desolate Council (which was another thing Calia ruined, giving Sylvanas justification for disbanding it and killing the members).

"Calia" didnt ruined Desolate Council. It was an excuse made by Sylvanas, in fact most of the Desolate Council were loyal to Sylvanas even if they wanted to self govern more. "Dictator had to shoot the self governing movement because they saw them in the same field as a... wait Calia wasnt evena traitor but just "person non grata".

Yeah lol, Sylvanas effectively ruined the Forsaken since she shot those who were actually WILLING to self govern and go forward as a Forsaken, so all who are left are cowed into submission... And now fall to Calia since all they were taught is "bow and kneel if you want to live".

[Magical Mudcrab]

"Calia" didnt ruined Desolate Council. It was an excuse made by Sylvanas, in fact most of the Desolate Council were loyal to Sylvanas even if they wanted to self govern more. "Dictator had to shoot the self governing movement because they saw them in the same field as a... wait Calia wasnt evena traitor but just "person non grata".

Yeah lol, Sylvanas effectively ruined the Forsaken since she shot those who were actually WILLING to self govern and go forward as a Forsaken, so all who are left are cowed into submission... And now fall to Calia since all they were taught is "bow and kneel if you want to live".

In the novel, Sylvanas only makes the decision to kill the Forsaken there because Calia was there and was inciting sedition. She knew it would be a bad idea to even be at the gathering, she was told it would be a bad idea, and her involvement got herself, the Forsaken who went, and the whole of the Desolate Council killed. Moreover, Calia was not some passive participant in this. Some of the Forsaken used her involvement as a reason to leave the Horde, which Calia then thought it would be a great idea to reveal herself and tell the Forsaken there to defect to the Alliance in front of Sylvanas.

People are free to say Sylvanas is solely responsible because she pulled the metaphorical trigger, but Calia gave her the gun, loaded the gun, and then pointed the gun at her self, the gathering, and the Desolate Council that was in favor of it. There's only so many bad decisions you get to make before you lose your ability to claim no wrongdoing, and Calia made nothing but bad decisions.

[loras]

There's a new quest regarding Calia Menethil and her future role among the Forsaken in Lordaeron:
https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-cal...26984#comments

It is hinted that one of Genn Greymane's mages sends the Alliance adventurer to Brill in Tirisfal Glades to meet with Calia, but further information remains unclear as of yet.



I don't have much opinion about Calia as a character, although I know that many people are at best skeptical towards her. What role do you think she should play in the future? Would most of the Forsaken actually accept her as the Queen of Lordaeron?

One of my characters is Forsaken, he is, at best, sceptical of any sort of centralised power by now.
No lich kings, no banshee queens, no demon lords or gods of death.

From outside of a character centred point of view i would like for Calia to lead a sub-faction of the forsaken, akin to what the argent dawn (or scarlet crusade) is for humans.
Basically a slightly less hostile and less depressed group of forsaken.
Then we as players can decide for ourselves what sort of forsaken we play.

[VladlTutushkin]

In the novel, Sylvanas only makes the decision to kill the Forsaken there because Calia was there and was inciting sedition. She knew it would be a bad idea to even be at the gathering, she was told it would be a bad idea, and her involvement got herself, the Forsaken who went, and the whole of the Desolate Council killed. Moreover, Calia was not some passive participant in this. Some of the Forsaken used her involvement as a reason to leave the Horde, which Calia then thought it would be a great idea to reveal herself and tell the Forsaken there to defect to the Alliance in front of Sylvanas.

People are free to say Sylvanas is solely responsible because she pulled the metaphorical trigger, but Calia gave her the gun, loaded the gun, and then pointed the gun at her self, the gathering, and the Desolate Council that was in favor of it. There's only so many bad decisions you get to make before you lose your ability to claim no wrongdoing, and Calia made nothing but bad decisions.

Being provoked in such situation is not an excuse. Because Stalin for example actually had proof that his generals were disloyal to some degree. He purged the Staff so badly that the remaining ones were shitting themselves every time he called (aside from Zhukov). He also had evidence to other forms of disloyalty that he responded with brutal and swift actions... And he is now compared to Hitler because of it.

And he had an actual net of spies and ets , not just "those people were seen in the same field once". Yet he is a "bloody tyrant and a monster" and you will have different time finding anybody speaking remotely good about him.

Tyrant having paranoia and fear for their station so badly that they willing to "pull the trigger" so fast is PURELY on them. If her positions is so weak one living, light-loving Menethil is enough to "call for the purge" then SYLVANAS REIGN WAS SHIT TO BEGIN WITH. So no matter how you cut it, she was a fuckup in this situation. Popular leader wouldnt need to shoot their own people, brutal leader would know that they will fear them more then love this newcomer pretender.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Being provoked in such situation is not an excuse.

Calia was explicitly and openly inciting sedition. There's nothing left to really be said or discussed.

[VladlTutushkin]

Calia was explicitly and openly inciting sedition. There's nothing left to really be said or discussed.

And as i said - if some literally nobody, as people here keep claiming, "no true forsaken", not even a forsaken at ALL back then, a "hated Menethil" runs out and starts "provoking" is this absolute pussy of a Banshee got THAT scared of THIS situation?

If she genuinely thought that this was a threat to her reign then her reign was not worth crap to begin with. She was a failure of a leader and Forsaken are better off without her.