King's Diversity Space Tool: A Leap Forward for Inclusion in Gaming

[Gempalm]

I'm really surprised how many of you are shocked by this. This has been implemented in some form with every [brand] we've consumed for years. The new dragon race is literally 1 non-binary androgynous gender with twink hair/face jewelry, exclusive to evoker to prop it up. Nobody says anything, and everyone pays for the products without question.

[Gumble]

When you start injecting your unchangeable characteristics into the decision making process, you open the door to it being used against you.

Saying "We need to hire a woman for this role" makes "we need to hire a man for this role" allowable.

"We need to hire more diverse workers" makes "we need to hire only straight asian men" ok as well.

You can't do one without making the other acceptable.



Either we judge people based on their merits, or we don't..... and if we don't..... don't be upset when a bunch of people decide to exclude you based on your race/gender/religion/sexuality/etc. You opened the door and said it was ok to judge based on that.

That's why we were supposed to move BEYOND that and judge people on merit.

F-ing regressive people.

[Gempalm]

I think you replied to the wrong person, brother.

[Violent]

W E I R D!

/10 chrs

[Gempalm]

Sorry, maybe you folks think I support the spreadsheet? I don't. I am just surprised we're "disgusted" by it now because the veil was lifted with this post. Meanwhile y'all are still buying woke products where some form of the spreadsheet has been implemented for years, and nobody bats an eye. So the reactions herein seem disingenuous. If you want to actually do something about it, voice concerns for woke products that can still be changed and you're still going to buy, like Dragonflight. Spoiler alert, you're virtue signalling cowards and nobody is blowing back on DF, but you'll all still buy it.

[Epoxe]

I find it absolutely hilarious that anyone can even have a ‘diversity score’. Like how in the actual fuck can you score a 0 on a diversity score for your race or sexual orientation. That literally makes no sense at all.

hilarious. as a straight white middle height middle weight middle aged man I guarantee I'm a 0 on their "diversity" chart. A character will only get a good score if it looks like a rainbow dildo. Come to think of it, I guess we wont have many of the Wrynn's around anymore will we?

[panda040]

What a stupid waste of time and resources. Please Microsoft, end this.

[guisadop]

this "tool" is so creepy and sick it makes you wonder how far removed from reality the creators of this frankenstein are. tokenism at its finest

[Syncr]

hilarious. as a straight white middle height middle weight middle aged man I guarantee I'm a 0 on their "diversity" chart. A character will only get a good score if it looks like a rainbow dildo. Come to think of it, I guess we wont have many of the Wrynn's around anymore will we?

Just depends, if your fat and disabled you might get a higher score.

Go eat some McDonald’s and get hit by a bus to raise that score

[VMSmith]

Actually, I did demonstrate why the person is in error. I gave examples on how the concept of "x people believe, so y must be true!" is a faulty argument.

And I disagree.

No, and yes. You presented a situation in which they would have been in error, had they been appealing to the authority in the situation you brought up. You never showed why the authority they are referencing in this situation is in error, only that they appealed to that authority. Appealing to authority is not necessarily a sign of error, only of a fallacy. Which is why what you said is the Fallacy Fallacy, you are attempting to state that they are in error simply because they used a fallacy. That's not how it works.

Giving an example of the appeal to authority fallacy does not show that an appeal to authority is in error, only that it is a logical fallacy.

[NineSpine]

Then use that evidence. Saying "well these doctors all agree so it must be true" is a poor argument for the reasons I put out. Also, I'd argue that the current wave of this situation is so drastically/radically different than historically. Rates of transitioning have jumped so high in the last 5 years - millennials are 30(?)% up while Gen Z is 50% up from where they were. Any data gathered on this will be shallow at best for the potential impact. IMO, we'll have an accurate example of how things are *maybe* ten years from now.

And no, the two are not the same at all.

Because to a normal person, a mass scientific consensus is a lot more compelling than me posting studies. I didn't say "the doctors agree so it must be true" but if there is a mass scientific consensus, and the opposition us just yelling "NUH UH" it is reasonable to go with the expert consensus. It is only fallacious if you treat the experts as infallible or if they are not really experts. I didn't dismiss evidence because of the scientific consensus, since no evidence to the contrary was presented.

By your logic, if someone says "Evolution isn't real", I am not allowed to appeal to the mass scientific consensus on evolution, and instead I need to spend five hours writing up a full dossier on why evolution is real, yet the person claiming it isn't just gets to sit there looking smug, and then they just post one "study" back and deny I'm right. You aren't properly understanding how the appeal to authority fallacy or burden of proof work.

The handwashing example was a deliberate choice because the one guy actually did test it and had results. But he was shot down and silenced due to societal pressure and self-interest.

I think it's important to keep researching and testing but also to be open-minded with the possibility that things can change / data go in a way that might be uncomfortable to people.

Much like "sometimes people are wrong" isn't a good reason, "all these people believe it!" isn't a good reason, either.

The hand washing example is literally "sometimes people are wrong".

[Eosia]

When you start injecting your unchangeable characteristics into the decision making process, you open the door to it being used against you.

Saying "We need to hire a woman for this role" makes "we need to hire a man for this role" allowable.

"We need to hire more diverse workers" makes "we need to hire only straight asian men" ok as well.

You can't do one without making the other acceptable.

In a way, you can. When I taught in higher ed, I ended up being on a few search committees for hiring. At the time a new Provost had taken over and when he first arrived he noticed that the student body reflected the demographics of the area but not the faculty/staff. While he had no say in staff hires, he directed that faculty postings should be put up on places like sites that are frequented by women in engineering to give an example (he had sacked the Dean of the Technology Division not too long after his arrival). He also banned certain questions during interviews that disadvantaged certain cultures, the big one being "Tell us why you're the best person for this job".

This is also what Michigan State University did when the University of Michigan was being sued for its undergraduate admissions affirmative action policy. Where as UMich basically gave to 100 bonus points on your application for not being white and such, MSU would simply note what demographic seemed under represented and just send recruiters to areas where that demographic lived and simply got more people in that demographic into the application pool.

[Aerisot]

What? You mean the race with the highly offensive “English” accent?

Nah, I'm talking about the original Worgans, not the playable version.

[nvaelz]

I wouldn't call it a groundbreaking leap forward but not everyone can have a visualization of how diversity would look like in a video game and therefore maybe it's good with some guidelines. It's not political and if you take it that way then it's quite obvious you are triggered by the insane narratives from the past years after Trump. #Metoo please don't rape me #Himtoo pls don't accuse me of rape when I'm innocent you demon. Racism is real and white people get ALL the shit for racism but u black or yellow or orange or whatever color people also are racists and that's important knowledge too.

We learn from these times of idiocy and it's great but we should really just relax and take it for what it is. It's not as big as this thread makes it. Not even close.

My first post in this thread, can't really remember what I said but I was triggered by the political memes and now I'm more sensible and positive. It's how it is.

[Forogil]

As shown this tool seems just bad as a tool for the intended purpose.

It seems to have something like a white 23-ish muscular(ish) 6 feet cis-man as the center; and only seem to measure the distance from the center. That doesn't ensure that the set of characters are diverse as a team - and ignores that some traits can vary in both directions (you can be skinnier or fatter; older or younger; and in a fictional game more "able" than usual) and just care about the distance. And giving a number to "culture" (or ethnicity) doesn't make sense, and doesn't even ensure that all various cultures on the scales are represented.

Having the various axis like that might also cause a "bleed-over" from one axis to the nearby ones, so if some character has high score on gender identity and culture that is likely to bias the user to increase the score for sexual orientation.

[Etna-the-Undying]

who the hell wants to see themselfs in video games? I play this game for escape reality.

Imagine the guy that cant play a Dwarf because there are no queere Dwarfs or Forsaken because they dont have enough shades of skin color. LOL STFU

[shadowmatrix]

Seems few people actually understand how marketing works, you were always just numbers in some sort of metric. Hell, just pay close attention to the way politicians talk and see how little you actually mean. There is zero shocking about this tool other then the fact people didn't know stuff like this existed.

[schwank05]

The tool is missing a significant parameter - prevalence.

If 66 year old black, autistic, gay women represent 0.1% of the community as a whole - then the game should represent them similarly.

It becomes tokenism when you have 100% of the characters from 2% of the population.

Thank you. This right here.

[Syncr]

Because to a normal person, a mass scientific consensus is a lot more compelling than me posting studies. I didn't say "the doctors agree so it must be true" but if there is a mass scientific consensus, and the opposition us just yelling "NUH UH" it is reasonable to go with the expert consensus. It is only fallacious if you treat the experts as infallible or if they are not really experts. I didn't dismiss evidence because of the scientific consensus, since no evidence to the contrary was presented.

By your logic, if someone says "Evolution isn't real", I am not allowed to appeal to the mass scientific consensus on evolution, and instead I need to spend five hours writing up a full dossier on why evolution is real, yet the person claiming it isn't just gets to sit there looking smug, and then they just post one "study" back and deny I'm right. You aren't properly understanding how the appeal to authority fallacy or burden of proof work.



The hand washing example is literally "sometimes people are wrong".

Where is this mass scientific consensus? Have you even shown anything at all or are you just repeating this hoping everyone just says “oh okay then”

[NineSpine]

Where is this mass scientific consensus? Have you even shown anything at all or are you just repeating this hoping everyone just says “oh okay then”

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornel...gender-people/