I think abandoning borrowed power is a huge mistake

[Lady Atia]

Problem with the Legion Artifact system, not only lore-wise being OP, but as well invites for lazy development as weapons can be ignored. And you are right, the problem is discontinuing, just like the problem is that it is most of the time attached to an item. Covenants worked great here, as it was attached to you, the player.

Funnily enough they already had a solution for that problem - add cosmetic only transmog weapons to bosses. They already did with the Maiden hammer and Taeshalach.

And covenants were better, but still had the feel of "ok, I'm doing all this stuff just for them to take most of it away once 10.0 hits", which still sucks. We still don't even know what will happen to our Soulshape collection once the pre-patch hits ...

[Lochton]

I liked the aspect of some mechanics changing depending on the gear worn.. but would of liked it not attached to gear. " this piece has the best stats, but the azerite traits are lackluster"

I have a feelin they will put 4 multiple choice point that has the cov. Abilities on it only letting you pick 1. Saw some warriors getting excited to have Krian spear and Ven Execute at the same time.

I wonder if they will fit the soulbinds main passives in there somehow.

Would just be cool to, with 9.2, have the covenant traits merged and you had to pick one defensive/non-combat and one offensive.. I would pick Door of Shadows any day, the rest would just be fun to mess with.

And I hear ya on the Azerite gear.. So many nice pieces but you sulked because the powers weren't nice on them.

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Funnily enough they already had a solution for that problem - add cosmetic only transmog weapons to bosses. They already did with the Maiden hammer and Taeshalach.

Wasn't good enough. The skins for the artifacts didn't feel right, and most of the time, I just used some old world skin because the others felt over the top.

And covenants were better, but still had the feel of "ok, I'm doing all this stuff just for them to take most of it away once 10.0 hits", which still sucks. We still don't even know what will happen to our Soulshape collection once the pre-patch hits ...

Yeah.. I don't wanna lose my Door of Shadows.

[Johnjohn]

I want ways to advance my character. What I definately don't want is for everything to be reset each expansion.

[Omians]

Would just be cool to, with 9.2, have the covenant traits merged and you had to pick one defensive/non-combat and one offensive.. I would pick Door of Shadows any day, the rest would just be fun to mess with.

And I hear ya on the Azerite gear.. So many nice pieces but you sulked because the powers weren't nice on them.

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Wasn't good enough. The skins for the artifacts didn't feel right, and most of the time, I just used some old world skin because the others felt over the top.


Yeah.. I don't wanna lose my Door of Shadows.

They may put the Defense and mobility abilities in the Base Class talent tree.... if its thematically matching. A Holy priest keeping Door of shadow and Necromatic stuff would be a bit odd.

As stated. I really dont wanna lose that collection of soul shapes ether. Spending all that time collecting and not using anymore.

[Lochton]

They may put the Defense and mobility abilities in the Base Class talent tree.... if its thematically matching. A Holy priest keeping Door of shadow and Necromatic stuff would be a bit odd.

As stated. I really dont wanna lose that collection of soul shapes ether. Spending all that time collecting and not using anymore.

Sounds silly to put the abilities into class talent trees, only a few classes would receive anything then.

[Omians]

Sounds silly to put the abilities into class talent trees, only a few classes would receive anything then.

Ya. It does sound silly. Was just a thought to put them into each Class's Class tree. Like several Multiple choice points. Give them an option to talent point into it if they wanted. But themeatically would be odd for some classes to hold onto some abilities.

But then again. They do want lots more options to fill out the trees. Since there isnt gunna be stat increasing talents and all Passive and reactive abilities instead.

Just gotta wait and see

[Lochton]

Ya. It does sound silly. Was just a thought to put them into each Class's Class tree. Like several Multiple choice points. Give them an option to talent point into it if they wanted. But themeatically would be odd for some classes to hold onto some abilities.

But then again. They do want lots more options to fill out the trees. Since there isnt gunna be stat increasing talents and all Passive and reactive abilities instead.

Just gotta wait and see

At this rate, I would like to see multiple trees. Class talent trees, racial tree (Select what racial benefits you want), and empowerment tree (Dump in borrowed power which has to be leveled up on its own, and make covenant type abilities available within, but make sure that the tree can't be completed (maxed out) within one expansion)

[Omians]

At this rate, I would like to see multiple trees. Class talent trees, racial tree (Select what racial benefits you want), and empowerment tree (Dump in borrowed power which has to be leveled up on its own, and make covenant type abilities available within, but make sure that the tree can't be completed (maxed out) within one expansion)

Ohh, racial tree sounds fun. Reminds me how they are handling racial abilities in Pathfinder 2e TTRPG. Leveling up you get more racial things

[Lochton]

Ohh, racial tree sounds fun. Reminds me how they are handling racial abilities in Pathfinder 2e TTRPG. Leveling up you get more racial things

Was a small idea I made in a different thread to remove the Horde Vs. Alliance balancing problems, if people could make a combo of racial abilities readily available for all races.

[Flarelaine]

I do agree but the loud people believe adding or continuing a system/borrowed power is bad, and want less of it.

I'm controversial here, I liked the Azerite Gear abilities, not the gear itself because I never got the gear I want but the ability to infuse the gear, empower it with traits of its own.

Azerite gear offered customization. Just like reforging and meaningful gems/sockets. Which also got removed somewhere along the way.

[ellieg]

Funnily enough they already had a solution for that problem - add cosmetic only transmog weapons to bosses. They already did with the Maiden hammer and Taeshalach.

And covenants were better, but still had the feel of "ok, I'm doing all this stuff just for them to take most of it away once 10.0 hits", which still sucks. We still don't even know what will happen to our Soulshape collection once the pre-patch hits ...

I never understood this argument tbh. Every power we have is temporary. We spend the first 3 or 4 months of a patch getting geared up. We enjoy the gear for like a month then next patch comes out with 26 ilvl inflation and we start over.

[Lochton]

Azerite gear offered customization. Just like reforging and meaningful gems/sockets. Which also got removed somewhere along the way.

Unsure if wrong quite, as I know it does, and said it, the problem was the gear, the items, they would have their own talents, and it would never be the right talents dropping, and you had to weigh if you wanted good talents, or good item level/stats.

And the removal of Reforging was a bullshit move, but I guess some couldn't figure it out enough, so it was removed.

[Schmilblick]

Nope, borrowed power is the worst ever added to the game, it was just talents on a gated systems. screw it.

[Aydinx2]

You're making a few mistakes here:

1. you're assuming that such interesting and cool abilities can only come from borrowed power
2. you're assuming that people can freely swap. They can technically, but will always pick the top % option

Lets not forget that there isn't even that much choice. It's 2 abilities.

Also, plenty of people remember the game before borrowed power and preferred that.
Saying that these people don't exist is rude at best.

And yes, since the borrowed power keeps causing the same problems, I'd rather have less choice if that's what it takes (but, again, there isn't really choice).

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Azerite gear offered customization. Just like reforging and meaningful gems/sockets. Which also got removed somewhere along the way.

Except it didn't, at all.
You would always pick what was the best option for your spec. Same with gems and reforging.

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I never understood this argument tbh. Every power we have is temporary. We spend the first 3 or 4 months of a patch getting geared up. We enjoy the gear for like a month then next patch comes out with 26 ilvl inflation and we start over.

And so your argument is "we already have to do that so adding more is a non-issue"?

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Which sounds great but I'm not sure about the vagueness of all this: how is it not going to be either a) less player options or b) borrowed power in all but name. It sounds very much like we are going to let you have your cake and eat it somehow.

Borrowed power does not in any way add player options any more than talents do. In both cases you pick whatever is the best.
How is this different between talents and borrowed power?

[ellieg]

You're making a few mistakes here:

1. you're assuming that such interesting and cool abilities can only come from borrowed power
2. you're assuming that people can freely swap. They can technically, but will always pick the top % option

Lets not forget that there isn't even that much choice. It's 2 abilities.

Also, plenty of people remember the game before borrowed power and preferred that.
Saying that these people don't exist is rude at best.

And yes, since the borrowed power keeps causing the same problems, I'd rather have less choice if that's what it takes (but, again, there isn't really choice).

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Except it didn't, at all.
You would always pick what was the best option for your spec. Same with gems and reforging.

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And so your argument is "we already have to do that so adding more is a non-issue"?

My argument is everything is temporary so I don't think temporary = bad is an accurate statement. Borrowed power gives us something fresh to jump into and I personally like it. I see why some don't but I have a bad feeling that DF is gonna feel stale.

[Twdft]

Do you want every ability from every expansion to remain in your arsenal?-no, that would leave you with a thousand different buttons to press.

You actually think we'll be able to choose every active ability talent at once?

[Flarelaine]

Except it didn't, at all.
You would always pick what was the best option for your spec. Same with gems and reforging.

You may not remember, but there were times in the game when there wasn't one obvious choice and you had to balance various stats, often through gems and reforging. Hit cap and defense cap meant one did not simply stack one stat.

[Aydinx2]

My argument is everything is temporary so I don't think temporary = bad is an accurate statement. Borrowed power gives us something fresh to jump into and I personally like it. I see why some don't but I have a bad feeling that DF is gonna feel stale.

Temporary = bad though, and no not everything is temporary. In fact almost nothing is.

Between expansions, a class generally keeps the abilities/characteristics that they have, with content like Legion being a notable exception (which included 2 borrowed power systems in legendaries and artifacts). Yes your gear becomes worthless, but the way you play and perform largely stays the same. The only reason that has changed so much lately is because of borrowed power suddenly adding power in new places.

But borrowed power doesn't carry over at all. It gets abandoned entirely in favor of a new system, that the rest of the class/spec is not balanced around.

[czarek]

XD this community is the best LOL. GTFO WITH BORROWED POWERS. They did take it away. OMG BRING BACK BORROWED POWERS. Seriously ?

[ellieg]

Temporary = bad though, and no not everything is temporary. In fact almost nothing is.

Between expansions, a class generally keeps the abilities/characteristics that they have, with content like Legion being a notable exception (which included 2 borrowed power systems in legendaries and artifacts). Yes your gear becomes worthless, but the way you play and perform largely stays the same. The only reason that has changed so much lately is because of borrowed power suddenly adding power in new places.

But borrowed power doesn't carry over at all. It gets abandoned entirely in favor of a new system, that the rest of the class/spec is not balanced around.

But rotations change basically every xpac. Overall specs get reworked from time to time.

And as u mentioned in your other post, ppl will pick what's best a majority of the time. As things get tuned between cycles, or as things scale with more gear, certain abilities will become better than others and ull stop using some and switch to the other. Just as temporary imo