I guess we can all agree now that the Titans are much stronger than the Eternal Ones?

[Flatspriest]

Here's a thought. Try going up against Zovaal using the exact same gear you were when you defeated Argus. You wouldn't stand a chance. Now, go up against Argus in your current gear and he is super easy compared to what he was in the old gear.

[darkoms]

Here's a thought. Try going up against Zovaal using the exact same gear you were when you defeated Argus. You wouldn't stand a chance. Now, go up against Argus in your current gear and he is super easy compared to what he was in the old gear.

So, Garrosh>Ragnaros?

[TickTickTick]

Anyone who has done the fight knows that Azeroth is not helping us during the fight

Maybe do the fight then?

Phase 3
The Jailer casts Unbreaking Grasp, stunning all players.
For uncounted ages I plotted to break this flawed cycle. To forge a new cosmos... dominated under my will.
All players receive Boon of Azeroth, ending the stun.
The soul of your world defies me?! No matter. It cannot save you.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=363338/boon-of-azeroth

Azeroth empowers the heroes of Azeroth, freeing them from their bonds and increasing Mastery by 17, and Haste, Critical Strike and Versatility by 12%.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Maybe do the fight then?

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=363338/boon-of-azeroth

Ah, that's my bad, I had thought the protections we received to resist Domination magic (like the Crown of Wills) had freed us from that for whatever reason. Regardless, the other points still stand.

[Vakna]

If something is at the power level of a Titan (Eternal Ones, Jailer, N'zoth by some comments in this thread), then why is the ultimate goal of those baddies always to corrupt and use the power of Azeroth who is a Titan. Azeroth is always the power source that the bad guys want, and she is a Titan, therefore by simple deduction: Titan>All of those.

[Iain]

Here's a thought. Try going up against Zovaal using the exact same gear you were when you defeated Argus. You wouldn't stand a chance. Now, go up against Argus in your current gear and he is super easy compared to what he was in the old gear.

Granted but the same applies to some fox or toad or moth from Bastion or Ardenwald, they're all way more powerful than Argus.

[darkoms]

If something is at the power level of a Titan (Eternal Ones, Jailer, N'zoth by some comments in this thread), then why is the ultimate goal of those baddies always to corrupt and use the power of Azeroth who is a Titan. Azeroth is always the power source that the bad guys want, and she is a Titan, therefore by simple deduction: Titan>All of those.

Sargeras also wanted to corrupt her

[Raisei]

Zovaal is not even worth the dirt under Aggramars nails. He was just there to prop up Sylvanas and it shows. We beat him easier then even N'Zoth, who would have been as much of a threat to the Titans as a pimpel, proven by Aman'thul simply ripping Y'sharaj out of Azeroth.

[Armael]

Shadowlands
- we defeated Sire Denathrius with the only form of "empowerment" being granted the powers of the covenant of our choice. Considering Denathrius already gave the Jailer his sigil, and the Crown of Harvesters was restored (which also weakened Denathrius), it was pretty much balanced

The Crown of Harvesters was finished after Denathrius defeat, the storyline of the Venthyr (I think starting with the one where you have Kael'thas in tow) takes place specifically after CN. It's the bulk of the missions after the Kael'thas one that is you gathering the remaining "houses" leaders help to re-create the Crown.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Sargeras also wanted to corrupt her

Sure, but that's not the same.
- Zovaal needs Azeroth in order to power the magic he was going to use on the Zeriths.
- The Void Lords need a Titan to have a presence in reality (and were envious of their power).
- Sargeras wants to ensure that no other cosmic force has access to a Titan. She isn't part of some grand plan, her power isn't needed for him to complete his plans, and she's not particularly special to him. Sargeras wants to ensure that no other cosmic force can mold a Titan into a weapon that can be used against him, and Azeroth just happens to be a Titan at risk of corruption (like Argus before her, and like the unnamed Titan that was cleaved in two before him).

[hansfredrichseidel]

So if Denathrius is a God, why didn't he keep Rose and her friends from getting past him? Well, the simplest explanation is that he didn't actually want to kill them. If one considers the fact that this is a computer game, it's logical to assume that they wanted to give the players a challenge when they entered the zone. Denathrius doesn't do anything but stand around and occasionally auto attack; he was never meant to provide your standard raid boss encounter. And more than any other World of Warcraft instance, Sunwell Plateau was designed for level 70 players; this meant balancing encounters with multiple tanks and healers. The problem with letting the players run through on their own means they can't be challenged by the humanoid mobs; they were all intentionally made weak so you can fly over them. Instead, Blizzard gave us a challenge in Denathrius. A fight without adds or many abilities meant our hit points had to be low enough to make it a threat, but not so low we could die in three hits. This also meant using manual attacks and casting spells wasn't an option either, as there was no way for them to balance for both mages with AoE and melee classes in mind at once; only spellcasters

[Aucald]

So if Denathrius is a God, why didn't he keep Rose and her friends from getting past him? Well, the simplest explanation is that he didn't actually want to kill them. If one considers the fact that this is a computer game, it's logical to assume that they wanted to give the players a challenge when they entered the zone. Denathrius doesn't do anything but stand around and occasionally auto attack; he was never meant to provide your standard raid boss encounter. And more than any other World of Warcraft instance, Sunwell Plateau was designed for level 70 players; this meant balancing encounters with multiple tanks and healers. The problem with letting the players run through on their own means they can't be challenged by the humanoid mobs; they were all intentionally made weak so you can fly over them. Instead, Blizzard gave us a challenge in Denathrius. A fight without adds or many abilities meant our hit points had to be low enough to make it a threat, but not so low we could die in three hits. This also meant using manual attacks and casting spells wasn't an option either, as there was no way for them to balance for both mages with AoE and melee classes in mind at once; only spellcasters

Denathrius and the other Eternal Ones aren't deities, he is also neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

[defibrillator]

TBH:

Legion
- we defeated corrupted Aggrammar with the only form of "empowerment" being our artifact weapons; while Aggrammar being corrupted certainly increased his powers, it wasn't by that much
- we defeated corrupted Argus using our artifact weapons and being empowered by the Titans; Argus was being empowered by the Death magic for millenias, so he was clearly a lot more powerful than Aggrammar, which was balanced by the Pantheon empowering us

Shadowlands
- we defeated Sire Denathrius with the only form of "empowerment" being granted the powers of the covenant of our choice. Considering Denathrius already gave the Jailer his sigil, and the Crown of Harvesters was restored (which also weakened Denathrius), it was pretty much balanced
- we kept up with the Jailer to a certain point, while being empowered by our covenant and by the Crown of Wills which greatly reduced the effect that domination magic has on us... but then the Jailer still overpowered us and we would have been defeated if it wasn't for Azeroth herself pushing back and granting us her boon. It's pretty much established by now that Azeroth is like one of the most powerful beings in the universe (they'll probably retcon her to be some kind of a final First One), I'd say it was actually pretty unbalanced and unfair towards the Jailer lmao.



What do you mean without any help? In Castle Nathria, we were empowered by the covenants - how is it any different than the Titans empowering us while still sitting and doing nothing other than that? You don't need to be in close proximity to be empowered by powerful beings.



A titan that was being empowered by both Death and Fel magic for millenias, while being a being of Order himself. I'd say at that point he was pretty goddamned powerful, more than initially designed by the First Ones (if they created the Titans) and needing the whole Pantheon of Order to fight back a being infused with THREE Cosmic forces is not that far fetched.

Are you insinuating that the covenants granted you power equivalent to that of the Titans? And by extension, that most of the denizens of the Shadowlands are on the same levels as the Order Hall Masters when they were amped by the Titans themselves? lmfao. And no, Argus was never empowered by Fel Magic, quite on the contrary in fact. He was being tortured by it.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Denathrius and the other Eternal Ones aren't deities, he is also neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

I think it would be fair to say that not only are they not omniscient but they barely have a grasp of what is happening in their domains or the Shadowlands more generally, given Kyrestia let Anduin get close enough to attack her.

[Aucald]

I think it would be fair to say that not only are they not omniscient but they barely have a grasp of what is happening in their domains or the Shadowlands more generally, given Kyrestia let Anduin get close enough to attack her.

Kyrestia at least had the excuse that Anduin showed no outward signs of corruption until he was within her presence, and had been vouched for by other parties as a force for Light and good (being unknowingly puppeteered by Zovaal's Domination). As for Denathrius, given his own goals, he likely didn't care overmuch for the goings-on in his realm so long as it continued to supply him with anima - he had his eyes fixed on a seemingly larger prize, so overseeing Revendreth was just a stepping stone to greater things until he met his near-demise.

[hansfredrichseidel]

well that explains it. Thanks for the info