"Catering to 5% of your player base will leave you with 5% of your player base"

[Osmeric]

If i had a dollar for every time someone predicted the downfall of wow, id have more money than the doomsayes think wow is worth.

Yes, nothing can go wrong because nothing has gone wrong. /s You completely missed the point of the argument I was making.

[ellieg]

Yes, nothing can go wrong because nothing has gone wrong. /s You completely missed the point of the argument I was making.

Oh I understood your point, you're just not the first person in 17 years to make that point. I think chicken little was the first one I heard it from

[Yriel]

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with what i said. At all. Thats some max tier strawmanning right there.

Nah thats exactly what you said. I didn't camp 100 hours for some obscure rare spawn mob that drops a recolor of a mount i already have 3 versions of? TheErE Is stIlL ConTEnT yOU cHOsE Not TO dO!!!

[Soikona]

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with what i said. At all. Thats some max tier strawmanning right there.

Hold on, you were the one that mentioned blockbuster. You started the strawman.

[arkanon]

Hold on, you were the one that mentioned blockbuster. You started the strawman.

Yes - it was used as a very accurate comparison - if you walk into blockbuster and only rent one movie because thats all you like, that does not mean the blockbuster only has one movie. The other "example" is not related at all.

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Nah thats exactly what you said. I didn't camp 100 hours for some obscure rare spawn mob that drops a recolor of a mount i already have 3 versions of? TheErE Is stIlL ConTEnT yOU cHOsE Not TO dO!!!

An absolutely ridiculous example, arguing from the most extreme of extremes, because even then, yes - that is entirely true.

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So it would also be ok to only put in only one m+ dungeon since you can always play it on a higher difficulty and never run out of content to do? And no new raids, too, apparently barely anyone kills the last boss on mythic, there is enough content out there for raiders until the majority did that.

The irony is, all this post does is prove you do not understand the example at all. Using your "logic", what im saying is you cant go into blockbuster, with 8,000 movies on the shelf, pick ONE movie you do like, then say "they had no movies, just this one, their selection sux".

Using your mythic example, its blizzard releasing 12 dungeons, and someone running their favorite dungeon and ONLY their favorite dungeon over and over again, while ignoring all the others, then saying "there is only one dungeons in this game".

For every 500 people doing 1/2/3 and saying there is nothing else in the game to do, there are 500 players doing X/Y/Z and saying the same thing.

[Yriel]

Using your mythic example, its blizzard releasing 12 dungeons, and someone running their favorite dungeon and ONLY their favorite dungeon over and over again, while ignoring all the others, then saying "there is only one dungeons in this game".

For every 500 people doing 1/2/3 and saying there is nothing else in the game to do, there are 500 players doing X/Y/Z and saying the same thing.

No it isn't. You are saying that there is still content left, even if it's a boring repetetive copy of stuff people already did 50 times. How is that different than saying that until you haven't done m+ 34 of one dungeon you still have content left? Or until you killed the mythic raid endboss you still have content left? It's exactly the same.
Your silly Blockbuster comparison is so far off that i won't even argue with that.

[arkanon]

No it isn't. You are saying that there is still content left, even if it's a boring repetetive copy of stuff people already did 50 times. How is that different than saying that until you haven't done m+ 34 of one dungeon you still have content left? Or until you killed the mythic raid endboss you still have content left? It's exactly the same.
Your silly Blockbuster comparison is so far off that i won't even argue with that.

"I don't like the content" is NOT the same as "there is no content". You can't seem to understand that.

[Osmeric]

"I don't like the content" is BOT the same as "there is no content". You can't seem to understand that.

(BOT = NOT, I assume)

It's just a different failure mode on the devs' parts. In one case they didn't make any content, in the other they failed to make content that appealed to the customer. In neither case is it the customer's fault. No customer is under some sort of bizarre obligation to like content that was provided, just because it exists.

[arkanon]

(BOT = NOT, I assume)

It's just a different failure mode on the devs' parts. In one case they didn't make any content, in the other they failed to make content that appealed to the customer. In neither case is it the customer's fault. No customer is under some sort of bizarre obligation to like content that was provided, just because it exists.

And blizzard are under no obligation to tailor their game to any one players specific wants. They make a game - if you like it, pay for it and play it. If you don't, just......don't.

I don't like pet battles, but if I was to list content the game provides, I absolutely would include pet battles as content. Again, not liking a particular type of content is not the same as there being no content.

[Osmeric]

And blizzard are under no obligation to tailor their game to any one players specific wants. They make a game - if you like it, pay for it and play it. If you don't, just......don't.

However, it's the devs' responsibility to make a game that attracts customers. That's why they are employed. To the extent they fail to do this, they are failing and put their jobs at risk.

Of course no specific customer has more than very slight market power. But those preferences add up, and as such cannot just be dismissed or ignored.

[arkanon]

However, it's the devs' responsibility to make a game that attracts customers. That's why they are employed. To the extent they fail to do this, they are failing and put their jobs at risk.

Of course no specific customer has more than very slight market power. But those preferences add up, and as such cannot just be dismissed or ignored.

No, it's their responsibility to make a product that is profitable, and despite the current state of the game, and dropping player numbers across all of blizzards games, and even more so across acti-blizz games, they still seem to be quite profitable, according to their reports.

The only logical reason for this is the remaining players spending an equal or greater amount on / in the game.

[agentsi]

I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.

You couldn't be more wrong. The game has only catered to 5% of the playerbase, for it's entire existence. Yet it's still here, people are still playing it. Stop crying already, grow up. If it isn't the game for you, go play something else. Stop bitching and moaning that the random game you play, isn't made for you. Because it isn't.

[Yriel]

"I don't like the content" is NOT the same as "there is no content". You can't seem to understand that.

But it's the same content, it's like only having one dungeon but getting told each m+ is new content. You can't seem to understand that.
Technically both is true, camping some raremob for some recolored mount technically is content, as is playing +30 instead of +29 on your only availible dungeon but just as the m+ community wouldn't accept only one m+ dungeon in a new expansion or the raid community wouldn't accept only one raid until the majority cleared the mythic endboss, the casual community is annoyed by the very limited open world content.
"There technically is content" is a bad faith argument and you know it.

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You couldn't be more wrong. The game has only catered to 5% of the playerbase, for it's entire existence. Yet it's still here, people are still playing it. Stop crying already, grow up. If it isn't the game for you, go play something else. Stop bitching and moaning that the random game you play, isn't made for you. Because it isn't.

The game was much more casual friendly in the past, SL was among the worst for casuals. But you are right, everybody except the M+ and Raid people should quit. I encourage them to. I don't see me buying the next expansion, there is nothing in it that interests me at this point. Have your instanced bosskill game and see how that goes.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I said it in the other thread, but I'll say it here because judging by the conversations going on, the overall attitude is that players who do not want to do raid or pvp content should just quit. "We want better casual content" is basically met with disdain and insults. And people wonder why the WoW community is at its lowest point ever? All of the nice people have left, and the toxic sludge of extra hardcore devoted fans has condensed into a sludge more disgusting than the stuff gul'dan tried to feed the orcs.

[Echo of Soul]

I said it in the other thread, but I'll say it here because judging by the conversations going on, the overall attitude is that players who do not want to do raid or pvp content should just quit. "We want better casual content" is basically met with disdain and insults. And people wonder why the WoW community is at its lowest point ever? All of the nice people have left, and the toxic sludge of extra hardcore devoted fans has condensed into a sludge more disgusting than the stuff gul'dan tried to feed the orcs.

That's a little harsh don't you think? I'm sure that the stuff Gul'Dan tried to feed the orcs wasn't THAT bad.

[Glorious Leader]

I said it in the other thread, but I'll say it here because judging by the conversations going on, the overall attitude is that players who do not want to do raid or pvp content should just quit. "We want better casual content" is basically met with disdain and insults. And people wonder why the WoW community is at its lowest point ever? All of the nice people have left, and the toxic sludge of extra hardcore devoted fans has condensed into a sludge more disgusting than the stuff gul'dan tried to feed the orcs.

This attitude towards casuals has always been around to an extent and it remains incredible myopic. Don't get me wrong I think its great advice for consumers to tell them to leave when a product or service is no longer satisfying them. It's bad news bears for the game in the long run though and you can see evidence for that now. Shadowlands and BFA to an extent feel cheap and rushed and unfinished because they are.

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The game was much more casual friendly in the past, SL was among the worst for casuals. But you are right, everybody except the M+ and Raid people should quit. I encourage them to. I don't see me buying the next expansion, there is nothing in it that interests me at this point. Have your instanced bosskill game and see how that goes.

Not buying the expansion is pretty key here. They can ride the decline in subscribers because they have box sales. Box sales start to dip and they've got no excuse at that point.

[Tyris Flare]

I said it in the other thread, but I'll say it here because judging by the conversations going on, the overall attitude is that players who do not want to do raid or pvp content should just quit. "We want better casual content" is basically met with disdain and insults. And people wonder why the WoW community is at its lowest point ever? All of the nice people have left, and the toxic sludge of extra hardcore devoted fans has condensed into a sludge more disgusting than the stuff gul'dan tried to feed the orcs.

This is the exact same conversation that has been ongoing since the game launched. I I think it may have actually been more toxic 15 plus years ago.

All of this has happened before, all of it will happen again

[Miffinat0r]

This is the exact same conversation that has been ongoing since the game launched. I I think it may have actually been more toxic 15 plus years ago.

All of this has happened before, all of it will happen again

I feel like people say this because it's a means to dismiss the conversation without having to contribute to it.

The "threads" back then I went looking for them don't seem to involve nearly the same level of grievances that they exist now. In fact I distinctly remember WoW being the casual MMO in the MMORPG when it launched and it remained that way I believe until Cata. Something changed following wraith that basically hung casual players who made the base of the game out to dry.

The reality I feel is if we look at not just the WoW community, but MMORPG players as a whole, it's pretty universally agreed upon that Warcraft is not the casual MMORPG you want to play. Instead you have ESO, GW2, and FF14 leading that charge now.

[Echo of Soul]

I feel like people say this because it's a means to dismiss the conversation without having to contribute to it.

The "threads" back then I went looking for them don't seem to involve nearly the same level of grievances that they exist now. In fact I distinctly remember WoW being the casual MMO in the MMORPG when it launched and it remained that way I believe until Cata. Something changed following wraith that basically hung casual players who made the base of the game out to dry.

The reality I feel is if we look at not just the WoW community, but MMORPG players as a whole, it's pretty universally agreed upon that Warcraft is not the casual MMORPG you want to play. Instead you have ESO, GW2, and FF14 leading that charge now.

It started in Wrath actually, it just took a while to start having an effect. It was the multiple difficulties, a focus on harder content. Having content in the game that you had to "git gud or gtfo" caused a lot of casual players to do just that, gtfo.

We lost a lot of good people in Wrath and Cata because they weren't good enough for heroic raids. We replaced them with less pleasant but skilled players and that boll has been rolling ever since.

Now I personally think that the game is better now that the casuals have been driven out but it is what happened. If WoW had kept its low skill ceiling a lot more players would've subscribed to the game, I just wouldn't have been one of them because easy content is for losers.

[Relapses]

I feel like people say this because it's a means to dismiss the conversation without having to contribute to it.

The "threads" back then I went looking for them don't seem to involve nearly the same level of grievances that they exist now. In fact I distinctly remember WoW being the casual MMO in the MMORPG when it launched and it remained that way I believe until Cata. Something changed following wraith that basically hung casual players who made the base of the game out to dry.

The reality I feel is if we look at not just the WoW community, but MMORPG players as a whole, it's pretty universally agreed upon that Warcraft is not the casual MMORPG you want to play. Instead you have ESO, GW2, and FF14 leading that charge now.

You know, there's a funny thing about this forum having existed as long as it has and it's that you can go back 10+ years and verify what people actually were bitching about back then.

And low and behold, it's exactly the same shit that's being bitched about today.

• Here's a guy claiming he "broke down in tears" after reading about The Sundering in Cata. Tons of people chiming in with the usual "WTF Blizz" and "great this game is DEFINITELY dead for real this time" nonsense.
• Here's a guy complaining that Cata is a "waste of time and money." Sound familiar?
• Here's a thread complaining that Blizzard CMs are too mean when they respond to community issues
• Here's a thread claiming that it's impossible to suck at WoW, you're just bad at games in general.
• Here's a 151 page thread of people airing their grievances about the LFG in early Cata. There are some real gems in this thread.

...and that's just a snapshot of about a 2 week time frame from late 2010. So please, do not pretend that this community hasn't always been a toxic wasteland.