STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Celement]

I find it hilarious that "casual players want more casual content that isn't pushing them into raids, dungeons, or PvP, fun engaging repeatable content that creates a sense of community" is met with "LOL THEY JEALOUS B/C THEY HAVE LOW ILVL" It's pretty much EXACTLY what I have come to expect from the WoW community.

You would think they would do some of that content then no?

It's a story as old as the game itself. A player whines they need more content and when you check their profile it's always 0 lfr, no mythics even 2s, no isles, no torghast, no anything..

I don't know what fun engaging repeatable content they want but I doubt it can ever exist at this point. They would be better off finding another game that offers it.

WoW has added a ton of content in a decade but if nothing appeals to you now it's weird you are staying here.

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Remove gear from any activity and very few people will care about it.
"Casual content" used to give worthwhile rewards (although very slow) via the valor point content. When that was removed nobody wanted to do it.

It's the same with everything. Whenever someone suggests removing gear rewards from mythic raiding people have a complete meltdown.

See here is the thing... ZM offers the exact same thing... normal raid gear ( arguably it's far more rewarding since it covers almost every slot) and tier.

It really is just envious whining at this point from entitled twats wanting the entire games progression system torn down so they can get goodies.

[Echo of Soul]

See here is the thing... ZM offers the exact same thing... normal raid gear ( arguably it's far more rewarding since it covers almost every slot) and tier.

It really is just envious whining at this point from entitled twats wanting the entire games progression system torn down so they can get goodies.

Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.

[Celement]

Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.

Yes pretty much. Battlegrounds cap out slightly lower but the keyword is slightly never mind the conquest gear you will slowly get.

Mythic 0 is the heroic you are comparing to with wrath. Hell with Weekly events you can get a heroic ilv set together passively rather quickly.

Why is normal raid gear subsidized with heroic from events garbage? How entitled and whiny are you?

[crusadernero]

Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.

Well, systems like that was in the game when wow had millions of players. Non of us are probably correct here, but its obvious that the endgame activites and how you gear/progress your character(s) isnt really good.

Also, it really doesnt matter. We all do the same content. We all gotta replace the gear anyway. Have fun with it, unsub when bored.

[Echo of Soul]

Why is normal raid gear subsidized with heroic from events garbage? How entitled and whiny are you?

I don't care one bit, I get mythic quality gear. I wouldn't get caught dead in normal trash gear, that's for the casuals, it's completely useless and frankly what they deserve.

[ellieg]

Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.

Valor gear awarded 4 pieces of the 2nd best gear. Today, u get 2 291s which are bis. You get weeklys for 265 every 8 weeks which would fill the role of that emblem of frost gear ilvl. It took roughly 5 weeks to get enough badges from doing the daily heroic EVERY SINGLE DAY to buy one of those pieces. The emblem of valor was 245 ilvl. You could buy 5 pieces with that. Zm 252 cypher gear is higher relative ilvl than that and fills all slots.

You get more gear now than you did back then. But instead of doing a 15 min queued dungeon once per day, every day, you get a whole zone

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I don't care one bit, I get mythic quality gear. I wouldn't get caught dead in normal trash gear, that's for the casuals, it's completely useless and frankly what they deserve.

The trash normal gear as u call it, is better overall then the gear u got in wrath. I can break down the exact pieces and ilvl if u don't believe me

[Echo of Soul]

Valor gear awarded 4 pieces of the 2nd best gear. Today, u get 2 291s which are bis. You get weeklys for 265 every 8 weeks which would fill the role of that emblem of frost gear ilvl. It took roughly 5 weeks to get enough badges from doing the daily heroic EVERY SINGLE DAY to buy one of those pieces. The emblem of valor was 245 ilvl. You could buy 5 pieces with that. Zm 252 cypher gear is higher relative ilvl than that and fills all slots.

You get more gear now than you did back then. But instead of doing a 15 min queued dungeon once per day, every day, you get a whole zone

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The trash normal gear as u call it, is better overall then the gear u got in wrath. I can break down the exact pieces and ilvl if u don't believe me

Valor gear awarded the second best gear in the game which was WAY more than casual scrubs deserve. Currently they have access to the third best gear in the game which is complete garbage and more in line with what they deserve. Fuck em

[ellieg]

Valor gear awarded the second best gear in the game which was WAY more than casual scrubs deserve. Currently they have access to the third best gear in the game which is complete garbage and more in line with what they deserve. Fuck em

I'm gonna make a new thread posting the ilvl of the gear u can get then vs now. Trust me, its better now

[Echo of Soul]

I'm gonna make a new thread posting the ilvl of the gear u can get then vs now. Trust me, its better now

I don't really care. The second best gear back then was too much for casuals, the third best gear now is still too much. They should get LFR gear at most. So yeah it's better that they get worse gear now but not good enough.

[Raelbo]

can you, with all honesty, say that the prices for certain moounts and legendary mats havent been affected by the sheer fact you can buy gold directly ingame?

Yes. Absolutely. Because I don't operate using the principles of conspiracy theory thinking. I look at facts, I look at logic, I look at reason. I apply critical thinking to assess how the facts apply to the proposition, and frankly, your proposition is sorely lacking in any of this.

At most maybe 10% of the playerbase can be reliant on tokens for gold - that's entirely a constraint imposed by the design of tokens to be reliant on another player selling the gold. The rest of us make our gold the normal way, with some even making extra to supply the token sellers.

So there is simply no logical, rational or reasonable argument to be made that tokens have any effect whatsoever on the determination of the prices of these things, let alone a significant/meaningful one. It's just plain conspiracy theory logic.

If you look at legendary mats, for example: The cost is completely appropriate given the ease with which one can make gold in the game. If you do the math and consider how much gold you should be making simply as a by-product of doing the things you should already be doing in the game, then it's pretty much trivial to acquire the amount of gold you need for those legendaries within the timescales you have in which to do so.

Not to mention that it's patently absurd to argue that we are forced to resort to tokens to be able to afford such things, because even with tokens, someone still has to make that gold in order to be selling it to you in the first place. If the amount of gold required to buy legendaries was anywhere near as difficult or time-consuming as people like you would like to pretend (that we have to resort to tokens), then no-one would be selling their gold for a paltry $13 worth of Blizzard balance.

Sorry, but if someone is resorting to tokens to get gold, that has absolutely fuck-all to do with need, and everything to do with just being too lazy to bother with doing the bare minimum expected of one in this game. And if someone really wants to give their money to another player who is prepared to do that for them, then I am fine with it. It's a completely consensual transaction in which both parties are getting what they want without any form of coercion that has nothing to do with me, you or anyone else other than the two of them.

[Celement]

I don't care one bit, I get mythic quality gear. I wouldn't get caught dead in normal trash gear, that's for the casuals, it's completely useless and frankly what they deserve.

I have no idea what what point it is you are trying to make beyond trying to be argumentative.

[Soikona]

That has absolutely nothing to do with the argument he is making, which is: If tokens disappeared, he would start providing boosts. That in turn would increase competition among boosters, which would bring the price down and making boosting accessible to more players.

You see, this is the problem with the "tokens cause boosts hurr-durr" crowd. They don't bother applying to critical thinking to how removing the token would actually affect the boosting situation. They just cherry pick one aspect of it.

Here is another argument you won't see these guys making: Without tokens, all those people who sell their gold to buy them would suddenly have a lot more gold lying around to spend on buying things like boosts.

Because every token seller needs a buyer, all that tokens do is move gold around. The economy in the game though remains a closed system. It isn't really affected. It's just who is doing what that changes.

Yes it does. I don’t do boosts, just occasional dailies and I do 3 day mythic raiding with a few keys for the vault. It’s not needed.

[Relapses]

Yes it does. I don’t do boosts, just occasional dailies and I do 3 day mythic raiding with a few keys for the vault. It’s not needed.

When you play 11 toons and grind out +20s on all of them, it is. >_>;

[Dalinos]

I find it hilarious that "casual players want more casual content that isn't pushing them into raids, dungeons, or PvP, fun engaging repeatable content that creates a sense of community" is met with "LOL THEY JEALOUS B/C THEY HAVE LOW ILVL" It's pretty much EXACTLY what I have come to expect from the WoW community.

Holy moly. 34,730 posts. Acc has been around since 2008, so 14 years. Let's do some basic arithmetic shall we.

14x 365.25 days = 5,113.5 days, rounded to 5,114 days.

34,730 posts / 5,114 days = 6.79 posts per day, rounded to 7 posts per day.

You have been posting, on average, 7 posts per day on MMO-Champion, for FOURTEEN YEARS, every day. Operative words being "on average" of course, since some days you might've posted 0 posts, other days you might've posted 50 posts. Still though. 7 posts per day, for 14 years, non-stop?

If you spent HALF, nay, a QUARTER, nay, a SIXTEENTH of that time playing the game we all love instead of posting on MMO-C, you'd be much, much farther than where you currently are. Holy fucking shit. 7 posts a day for 14 years. Damn that's alot.

[Soikona]

Yes. Absolutely. Because I don't operate using the principles of conspiracy theory thinking. I look at facts, I look at logic, I look at reason. I apply critical thinking to assess how the facts apply to the proposition, and frankly, your proposition is sorely lacking in any of this.

At most maybe 10% of the playerbase can be reliant on tokens for gold - that's entirely a constraint imposed by the design of tokens to be reliant on another player selling the gold. The rest of us make our gold the normal way, with some even making extra to supply the token sellers.

So there is simply no logical, rational or reasonable argument to be made that tokens have any effect whatsoever on the determination of the prices of these things, let alone a significant/meaningful one. It's just plain conspiracy theory logic.

If you look at legendary mats, for example: The cost is completely appropriate given the ease with which one can make gold in the game. If you do the math and consider how much gold you should be making simply as a by-product of doing the things you should already be doing in the game, then it's pretty much trivial to acquire the amount of gold you need for those legendaries within the timescales you have in which to do so.

Not to mention that it's patently absurd to argue that we are forced to resort to tokens to be able to afford such things, because even with tokens, someone still has to make that gold in order to be selling it to you in the first place. If the amount of gold required to buy legendaries was anywhere near as difficult or time-consuming as people like you would like to pretend (that we have to resort to tokens), then no-one would be selling their gold for a paltry $13 worth of Blizzard balance.

Sorry, but if someone is resorting to tokens to get gold, that has absolutely fuck-all to do with need, and everything to do with just being too lazy to bother with doing the bare minimum expected of one in this game. And if someone really wants to give their money to another player who is prepared to do that for them, then I am fine with it. It's a completely consensual transaction in which both parties are getting what they want without any form of coercion that has nothing to do with me, you or anyone else other than the two of them.

Mentions basis on facts but is all on assumptions as there is no data. Great “critical thinking”.

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When you play 11 toons and grind out +20s on all of them, it is. >_>;

Not really, just do what you do on one toon with the 11. Dailies at most take 15 min. If you wanna maintain 11 alts then that’s your problem.

[Miffinat0r]

I believe the term casual these days is kinda wrong.

Language changes with time. The term casual prior only meant time commitment. But casual has other meanings as well. Leisure is one of the things that's included in the definition.

[Relapses]

Not really, just do what you do on one toon with the 11. Dailies at most take 15 min. If you wanna maintain 11 alts then that’s your problem.

No shit, Sherlock. I never implied it wasn't. But at some point buying a token becomes vastly more efficient (and wayyyyyy less boring) than "doing dailies" on 11 toons.

[Raelbo]

Mentions basis on facts but is all on assumptions as there is no data. Great “critical thinking”.

Cool. How about you tell me even one bad assumption I made and how it undermines my argument?

Not really, just do what you do on one toon with the 11. Dailies at most take 15 min. If you wanna maintain 11 alts then that’s your problem.

Still you miss the point. It does not matter whether there are possible alternatives for him to make the gold, or whether he actually needs that much. He has said that the removal tokens would be a motivation for him to resort to boosting in order to make gold. I don't even know how you can try and argue with someone about what they say they will do....

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Yes it does. I don’t do boosts, just occasional dailies and I do 3 day mythic raiding with a few keys for the vault. It’s not needed.

How about reading what I say and answering that?

You keep trying to win against an argument that no one is making. That's called strawmanning and it tells us that you lack a proper argument. So, again: It does not matter whether it is needed or not. He has said that he would rather spend money on a token than do the stuff in game that makes him gold. He has said he would rather boost other players for gold than do the stuff in game that makes him gold. And he has said that if the token is removed, he will start boosting. These are not things you can refute.

[VMSmith]

How is LFR a slog? You typically kill a boss in 2 maybe 3 attempts except the Jailer (which, duh. He's the final boss).
Any easier and it just becomes braindead button mashing until you get loot. Why do you even play the game at that point?

My personal experience was that it wasn't LFR, in particular, that was a "slog". It's been the newer raids, in general. The last time I enjoyed a WoW raid at all was Nighthold, and even that one was right on the edge of what is enjoyable, to me. I can't put my finger on what they're doing that I don't like, but the raids are just no fun now.

[Echo of Soul]

Language changes with time. The term casual prior only meant time commitment. But casual has other meanings as well. Leisure is one of the things that's included in the definition.

It is about commitment, just not time commitment. If you're dating a girl casually you might see her all the time but you're not super serious about the relationship, you're not putting the extra effort in that you would with potential spouse and as soon as she starts demanding that you take the relationship more serious you could potentially bail.

Playing WoW casually is very similar. You may play it a lot but you're not going to go the extra mile. You're not manually putting together groups with the intention of beating the hardest content for the best gear. As soon as the game or its players start nagging you about improving your game, installing voice comms software, simming your character or become straight up toxic towards you for playing the game in the relaxing way that you play it you could potentially just quit.