[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Ayirasi]

Latest She-Hulk trailer gave me some Ally McBeal PTSD. If Vonda Shepard comes out playing a piano with a dancing green baby on top, I riot.

[Dorothyjean]

I have no problem with girl power, I'm just hoping it's more than "this needs to have girl power in it, so that's what we're putting in it". A story reason would be nice, which is what I'm hoping for.

I used to collect her comic books when I was a younger man along with Hulk to see the different dynamics and she was your fairly typical "80s woman" being in a world dominated by men trying to compete and learning to deal with working harder and longer to achieve the same thing. It was a pretty basic 80s trope for women back in the 80s like Working Girl and many others.

The part I am hoping for and The Critical Drinker has mentioned it (Youtube dude) is the differences in male and female heroes and how the female heroes don't really have your stereotypical "hero" transition where they overcome an obstacle, challenged, defeated etc. whereas the female heroes seemingly just "poof" and they're superheroes.

So as much as people might think they will push "woke" or "the message" through this I doubt they will because that was one of the foundations of She Hulk in her original comic books.

But ya never know... "the message" seems to be dominating everything these days and even my wife, who herself was working in a male dominated field in the 80s, has started calling it the M-She-U like others have started calling it and she grew up with superheroes from the 70s and she's becoming bummed out with the newer MCU stuff and how they seem to be destroying the male field of superheroes, rewriting their canon (Superman killed Zod) etc. and this wave of "strong woman superheroes" is a big turn off to her because she feels like they are being written cheaply and poorly.

[Biomega]

this wave of "strong woman superheroes" is a big turn off to her because she feels like they are being written cheaply and poorly.

Totally agree. It's the Rey Skywalker formula - not so much a character arc as a character vertical line. Just be the best at everything, instantly. Cool writing.

I'm 100% for diversity, representation, all that. But it's not more important than good writing, and it sure as hell isn't a substitute for good writing. And there really is no reason it should be, either.

As you rightly say: we have source material that actually does this well. We don't need things to be contrived and shoehorned just for the sake of virtue signaling. I share your hopes and your fears both: this is a good chance to make a show that demonstrates that you can write powerful female characters well, because, uh, it's already kinda been written in the comics; but there's also the possibility that they'll simply deadlock onto the idea of "strong woman" and present it as nothing but a gloopy mess of tropes and stereotypes, with little actual development.

Wait and see, I guess.

[Dorothyjean]

Totally agree. It's the Rey Skywalker formula - not so much a character arc as a character vertical line. Just be the best at everything, instantly. Cool writing.

I'm 100% for diversity, representation, all that. But it's not more important than good writing, and it sure as hell isn't a substitute for good writing. And there really is no reason it should be, either.

As you rightly say: we have source material that actually does this well. We don't need things to be contrived and shoehorned just for the sake of virtue signaling. I share your hopes and your fears both: this is a good chance to make a show that demonstrates that you can write powerful female characters well, because, uh, it's already kinda been written in the comics; but there's also the possibility that they'll simply deadlock onto the idea of "strong woman" and present it as nothing but a gloopy mess of tropes and stereotypes, with little actual development.

Wait and see, I guess.

Basically and ya, wait and see and hope. What's funny too is that this younger generation of writers think they have the key to success even though starting in the 70s and moving into the 90s showed a dramatic spike in strong female characters AND smart writing. From Ellen Ripley to Sarah Connor and they were incredibly well fleshed out, well written and well acted.

I've always enjoyed those kinds of movies but the way they are being written now... I just dunno. Like I loved Wandavision for the way it was directed, filmed but the way her character was portrayed was really not well thought out.

[Endus]

Totally agree. It's the Rey Skywalker formula - not so much a character arc as a character vertical line. Just be the best at everything, instantly. Cool writing.

See also Anakin Skywalker. It's kind of a family trend.

Heck, see most Jedi. Cause the Force is a thing.

Not gonna argue it's "good writing", but it's fuckin' weird that people pretend one of the strongest force-sensitives on the planet just naturally lucks into doing the right thing a bunch is out of place. When Anakin was supernaturally agile at age 9 (only human capable of pod-racing. At age 9.), and able to just instinctively pilot an attack craft and use it to practically accidentally blow up a fully-operational attack station in orbit, having never been out of his shithole desert town in his life as a slave.

Yes, the Force makes for silly bullshit. Why was it suddenly an issue when the Force user was Rey?

Star Wars was always pulpy schlock. Its inspiration was pulpy shlock. That's what it aspired to. Where did people get the impression the writing was good?

[Biomega]

Yes, the Force makes for silly bullshit. Why was it suddenly an issue when the Force user was Rey?

Because Anakin wasn't just an overpowered kid. He spent years in training, and grew up to be a cocky, arrogant Jedi who couldn't or wouldn't control his emotions, slaughtered women and children, and became a Dark Lord.

Whereas Rey discovered she was force sensitive, and in basically no time and with almost no instruction became a Jedi capable of standing up to the Emperor himself, all the while never giving in to any temptation and with basically no character flaws or significant development of any kind.

Anakin is far from the pinnacle of good writing, but it's a very different character arc than Rey's - which is barely an arc at all.

[Svifnymr]

Because Anakin wasn't just an overpowered kid. He spent years in training, and grew up to be a cocky, arrogant Jedi who couldn't or wouldn't control his emotions, slaughtered women and children, and became a Dark Lord.

Whereas Rey discovered she was force sensitive, and in basically no time and with almost no instruction became a Jedi capable of standing up to the Emperor himself, all the while never giving in to any temptation and with basically no character flaws or significant development of any kind.

Anakin is far from the pinnacle of good writing, but it's a very different character arc than Rey's - which is barely an arc at all.

It's odd, since from my recollection, everyone hated Anakin and found his destroying the controller to be stupid. Heck, I prefer Rey over Anakin any day of the week. Plenty of people came around in Revenge, I guess, but I still hated him then, so dunno.

[Biomega]

It's odd, since from my recollection, everyone hated Anakin and found his destroying the controller to be stupid. Heck, I prefer Rey over Anakin any day of the week. Plenty of people came around in Revenge, I guess, but I still hated him then, so dunno.

Make no mistake - I totally think that Anakin is a trash character written with two Christmas-sized ham fists; all I'm saying is that even though it's bad writing, at least there's character development. With Rey, there is almost nothing.

[Endus]

Because Anakin wasn't just an overpowered kid. He spent years in training, and grew up to be a cocky, arrogant Jedi who couldn't or wouldn't control his emotions, slaughtered women and children, and became a Dark Lord.

I guess you missed my points regarding Episode 1, where he was a 9-year-old slave who'd never been outside his town on Tattooine, but was explicitly superhuman already. Because he was already tapping into and using the Force, without any training at all.

And Anakin was, canonically, significantly weaker than Rey in the Force.

Anakin is far from the pinnacle of good writing, but it's a very different character arc than Rey's - which is barely an arc at all.

It's not about the arc; Rey's nearly a static character. It's about the different standards applied to Rey.

Static characters aren't necessarily "bad". Indiana Jones, for instance, is a static character; he doesn't change during the course of any of his films, nor does he even change between films, in any significant sense.

If you're talking about how easily/quickly Rey picked up the Force, that's not about a character arc. And Rey even does have an arc. It's just not related to the Force at all. It's about her coming to terms with who she is and her abandonment issues. It's not a big arc, but it's an arc. She doesn't finish in the same position she started in; she isn't chasing after meaning any more.

But this is kinda off-topic for an MCU thread.

[Biomega]

It's not about the arc; Rey's nearly a static character. It's about the different standards applied to Rey.

IDK what other people are saying, exactly, and it's not for me to speak to that. Rey has basically no character arc, and practically zero character development. That's not unique to her or unique to female characters, but she's a good example for that kind of trope because of her prominence.

And just to be clear: your Indiana Jones example is a bad one because the first moment he appears he's already a fully-fledged adventurer archeologist. He's not, say, some random guy who spent 30 years in the back of a book shop dreaming of going on adventures and then does it and excels at everything he touches - the adventures have already BEEN his life prior to us meeting him.

That's not Rey. When we meet her she's a nobody doing nothing in a nowhere place. She NEEDS character development to get out of that, but all she gets is a kiss on the forehead from the great god of writing and now she can do everything, and her character never develops. We get some EXTRANEOUS information, but her journey basically doesn't exist. She's just in it.

[s_bushido]

Daredevil is in the works for D+.

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/dar...rd-1235272299/

I was watching that again recently, and it makes me wonder how much they're going to tone it down. Honestly kinda surprised that they have it on D+ right now as it is. Kingpin decapitating that dude with the car door in the first season...fucking brutal.

[Endus]

That's not Rey. When we meet her she's a nobody doing nothing in a nowhere place. She NEEDS character development to get out of that, but all she gets is a kiss on the forehead from the great god of writing and now she can do everything, and her character never develops. We get some EXTRANEOUS information, but her journey basically doesn't exist. She's just in it.

That "kiss" is called The Force and it was never a problem until Rey. Why is she different from all the prior Jedi for being a Chosen One with awesome special powers that make her superhuman and Fate's chosen scion?

Her control of which does improve over the three films, which is an "arc", and not even the central one to her character, which is about her overcoming the flaw that was her need to "belong", to just be comfortable and happy in her own self rather than trying to find meaning in causes or group identity or family. Which is also an arc.

It's not an argument that functions, because the same arguments apply to Anakin and Luke and Ahsoka and Ezra Bridger. Anakin and Ahsoka and Bridger have more development because they have vastly more story presence, just in terms of hours on-screen to explore their stories. Luke doesn't get a lot of "development", either. He has a mental block about whether he can use the Force, gets over it in a training montage, confronts his dad and doesn't fall to the dark side in doing so. End arc. Rey has an abandonment complex and desperately seeks to find her place, tries a few things that don't work, has her actual parentage thrust in her face, and finds peace in coming to terms with it and moving beyond that need. That is a character arc, as much as you don't want to admit it.

- - - Updated - - -

I was watching that again recently, and it makes me wonder how much they're going to tone it down. Honestly kinda surprised that they have it on D+ right now as it is. Kingpin decapitating that dude with the car door in the first season...fucking brutal.

D+ has absolutely no problem with content of pretty much any level. There's NC-17 content on Disney+ right now, and a ton of R-rated stuff (or TV-MA). Maybe not in the USA, but that's a licensing issue with Hulu, not some kind of moral opposition on Disney's part.

The USA is the only region not getting this content, so far as I know, and it's entirely down to contractual licensing obligations with Hulu.

- - - Updated - - -

They added mature/r level parental controls specifically to add the Netflix shows in the US. We’ll see what a S4 or reboot looks like though.

Technically, they added those like a year or more earlier, they just didn't enable them in the USA until there was a reason.

[Biomega]

That "kiss" is called The Force and it was never a problem until Rey.

I'm not talking about her powers, I'm talking about her lack of character development. We went through all this. Anakin was also the OP wunderkind, but he DID have character development. Rey doesn't. Force or no force. And let's be clear - not even Anakin just went in and did everything out of the box with no training or journey. He started with more skills than an isekai protagonist, but he still developed. Rey didn't.

[Endus]

I'm not talking about her powers, I'm talking about her lack of character development.

Then she's got a character arc, as I already pointed out, and I really don't know why you'd pretend she doesn't.

Even if you meant the development of her powers, when you just said you weren't (even though your example focused on powers), there's still a clear progression in the films, so even that's not correct.

[s_bushido]

Jesus fucking Christ. Are we still talking about Rey?

[Endus]

@Endus No, they didn’t add them for the US until Netflix. I linked you the articles announcing it and everything. They had it for people in other countries though.

Hence why I said "activated". The functionality's been there much longer, it just wasn't visible/accessible to US users.

[Endus]

No, it wasn’t. I saw the updated app that added the necessary lines of code and everything.

So the parental controls I had available on my app for a year or more prior were . . . just figments of my imagination?

[SavoirFaire]

I was watching that again recently, and it makes me wonder how much they're going to tone it down. Honestly kinda surprised that they have it on D+ right now as it is. Kingpin decapitating that dude with the car door in the first season...fucking brutal.

Hopefully it’s just Matt in a courtroom versus Jennifer Walters like perry mason and Hamilton burger. Full on legal drama.

I’m worried Disney will cartoon up daredevil a bit too much.

[Endus]

When did you move to the US? Sorry, are you still ignoring that part?

You realize that disneyplus.com is the same web address no matter what country you're in when you put in your browser, right?

[Kreuger]

Really hyped about the news regarding DareDevil, especially that it will be a continuation and not a reboot