Bring 10-man hardcore raiding back in Dragonflight with a twist!

[Luck4]

DISCLAIMER: This thread is not about 10-man Mythic raids.

As Wrath of Lich King Classic approaches, I keep scratching my head about how we could have a hardcore 10-man raid option nowadays without destroying the 20-man scene that people care about.

After reading many threads all these years since WoD came out, I got to the conclusion that it all boils down to balancing issues, as Blizzard tried to make a 10-man version equivalent to a 25-man one. But we don't need that, and the answer lies within the Wrath of the Lich King expansion itself, where 10-man was treated literally as an in-between difficulty, instead of trying to be an equivalent version of a much bigger size raid like Blizzard tried in Cataclysm - Mists of Pandaria.

I mean, there's a very huge difficulty gap between Heroic and Mythic nowadays, so why not give something to all these people that quit after finishing Heroic, because they don't like/don't have enough players for the much bigger sized Mythic? A 10-man challenging version of the raid would also be attractive for the massive Mythic + crowd, and the new generation that prefers content meant for smaller groups.

So, how this would work out?

First off, keep in mind that this is not meant to be a 10-man Mythic, so the first thing that we need to do is detach people from that perspective, and the only way to do it is by treating this 10-man raid as a new difficulty, and since we're creating a new difficulty, we gonna need a new name, so in this thread, we'll be calling it: "Epic" a fixed 10-man raid size.

This is an example of what the difficulty chart would look like:



Design

Epic 10-man would use fairly the same Mythic 20-man mechanics and stats but scaled down to a 10-player group scenario, and would only change the few specific boss mechanics where we would need a specific class ability to do it, since we need to take into account that the Epic 10-man group will not have every single class in the group. So, mechanics that would require "Mind Control" or "Spellsteal", for example, would need to work differently, but would still need to pose a challenge in a 10-man environment.

Since Mythic 20-man requires a lot more group coordination, would be unfair to compare both difficulties, as the Mythic 20-man could have a mechanic where 3 meteors have to be soaked, while Epic 10-man would have only 1 meteor (a common situation in Cataclysm/Mists of Pandaria 10-man era), however, the effects would still be the same, like wiping the raid if not soaked, and would also apply the same nasty debuff.

Timegating

Like LFR, "Epic 10-man" would be gated, which would make World First guilds avoid it. This is an example of the raid unlocking schedule:

• Week 1: Normal and Heroic unlock;
• Week 2: First Wing LFR and Mythic 20-man unlock;
• Week 4: Second Wing LFR and Epic 10-man unlock;

Loot *

• 5 items for a single Mythic 20-man boss, 278 item level (example);
• 2 items for a single Epic 10-man boss, 274 item level (example), just two item levels above a fully upgraded Mythic+ base item;
  
  • Epic 10-man Great Vault would reward the same item level of a +15 Mythic; *

Raid Lockout

• Epic 10-man and Mythic 20-man would share the same raid lockout;

Prestige

• Epic 10-man guilds wouldn’t be able to get Hall of Fame titles/achievements;
• The last boss mount wouldn’t be a guaranteed drop;
• None or reduced drop chance for legendaries compared to Mythic 20-man;
• Separated achievements for Epic 10-man and Mythic 20-man, example:
  
  • Cutting Edge: The Jailer (20-player)
    Defeat The Jailer in the Sepulcher of the First Ones on 20-Player Mythic difficulty, before the release of the next raid tier.
  • Vanguard: The Jailer (10-player)
    Defeat The Jailer in the Sepulcher of the First Ones on 10-Player Epic difficulty, before the release of the next raid tier.
  • Ahead of the Curve: The Jailer
    Defeat The Jailer in the Sepulcher of the First Ones on Heroic difficulty or higher, before the release of the next raid tier.

Why do we need a 10-man challenging raid difficulty?

• Without the logistical barriers, more people would come back to hardcore raiding and would remain subbed longer since Epic 10-man progression would be lengthy compared to Heroic;
• Epic 10-man’s would make raiding more attractive for both the Mythic + crowd and the new generation;
• The faction imbalance showed its sharp increase shortly after Mythic 20-man were introduced, and many "Old Heroic" 10-man groups got stuck in the easier and short-lived progression cycle of the new Heroic;
• Many guilds broke, and many people stopped attempting challenging raiding content due to it being locked behind an overly large fixed size;
• Guilds that do heroic raids nowadays with less than 20 players would have another raid option to try after getting AOTC;
• For many people, a 10-man group has a more friendly and healthier environment than a 20-man one, as people usually can run with just their friends or have close bonds with every raider, where everybody knows and hangs with each other most of the time;
• Everyone can talk and have a great time on “Discord” (voice chat) while raiding;
• Fewer recurring discussions, disputes, comparisons, feuds, and tense moments due to the lack of multiple people playing the same classes with different skill levels, and of course due to people having stronger bonds/close relationships in general;

I think this would be a great compromise to bring 10-man challenging raiding content back while keeping the prestige and the RWF of Mythic intact.

--

* Numbers based on 9.2 and the Sepulcher of the First Ones Raid.

[Soikona]

Na, too many settings. 10 and 25 man split were some of the best raiding I did during Cata and mop.

[Kiria]

There's already too many different raid difficulties as it is...

[Authary]

You can add as many intermediate steps as you want, only the highest difficulty counts. Bring back mop raiding.

[Nymrohd]

There's already too many different raid difficulties as it is...

Why are they too many? M+ has infinite difficulties. Most ARPGs do as well. If there is going to be an endgame that depends on repeatable content, why not add as much granularity as possible so we can give the maximum number of people something that challenges them?

- - - Updated - - -

DISCLAIMER: This thread is not about 10-man Mythic raids.

As Wrath of Lich King Classic approaches, I keep scratching my head about how we could have a hardcore 10-man raid option nowadays without destroying the 20-man scene that people care about.

After reading many threads all these years since WoD came out, I got to the conclusion that it all boils down to balancing issues trying to make a 10-man version equivalent to a 20-man one. But we don't need that, and the answer lies within the Wrath of the Lich King expansion itself, where 10-man was treated literally as an in-between difficulty, instead of trying to be an equivalent version of a much bigger size raid like Blizzard tried in Cataclysm - Mists of Pandaria.

I mean, there's a very huge difficulty gap between Heroic and Mythic nowadays, so why not give something to all these people that quit after finishing Heroic, because they don't like/don't have enough players for the much bigger sized Mythic? A 10-man challenging version of the raid would also be attractive for the massive Mythic + crowd and the new generation that prefers content meant for smaller groups.

So, how this would work out?

First off, keep in mind that this is not meant to be a 10-man Mythic, so the first thing that we need to do is detach people from that perspective, and the only way to do it is by treating this 10-man raid as a new difficulty, and since we're creating a new difficulty, we gonna need a new name, so in this thread, we'll be calling it: "Epic" a fixed 10-man raid size.

This is an example of what the difficulty chart would look like:



Design

Epic 10-man would use fairly the same Mythic 20-man mechanics and stats but scaled down to a 10-player group scenario, and would only change the few specific boss mechanics where we would need a specific class ability to do it, since we need to take into account that the Epic 10-man group will not have every single class in the group. So, mechanics that would require "Mind Control" or "Spellsteal", for example, would need to work differently, but would still need to pose a challenge in a 10-man environment.

Since Mythic 20-man requires a lot more group coordination would be unfair to compare both difficulties since the Mythic 20-man could have a situation where 3 meteors have to be soaked, while Epic 10-man would have only 1 meteor (a common situation in Cataclysm/Mists of Pandaria 10-man era), however, the effects would still be the same, like wiping the raid if not soaked, and would also apply the same nasty debuff.

Timegating

Like LFR, "Epic 10-man" would be gated, which would make World First guilds avoid it. This is an example of the raid unlocking schedule:

• Week 1: Normal and Heroic unlock;
• Week 2: First Wing LFR and Mythic 20-man unlock;
• Week 4: Second Wing LFR and Epic 10-man unlock;

Loot *

• 5 items for a single Mythic 20-man boss, 278 item level (example);
• 2 items for a single Epic 10-man boss, 274 item level (example), just two item levels above a fully upgraded Mythic+ base item;
  
  • Epic 10-man Great Vault would reward the same item level of a +15 Mythic; *

Raid Lockout

• Epic 10-man and Mythic 20-man would share the same raid lockout;

Prestige

• Epic 10-man guilds wouldn’t be able to get Hall of Fame titles/achievements;
• The last boss mount wouldn’t be a guaranteed drop;
• None or reduced drop chance for legendaries compared to Mythic 20-man;
• Separated achievements for Epic 10-man and Mythic 20-man, example:
  
  • Cutting Edge: The Jailer (20-player)
    Defeat The Jailer in the Sepulcher of the First Ones on 20-Player Mythic difficulty, before the release of the next raid tier.
  • Vanguard: The Jailer (10-player)
    Defeat The Jailer in the Sepulcher of the First Ones on 10-Player Epic difficulty, before the release of the next raid tier.
  • Ahead of the Curve: The Jailer
    Defeat The Jailer in the Sepulcher of the First Ones on Heroic difficulty or higher, before the release of the next raid tier.

Why do we need a 10-man challenging raid difficulty?

• Without the logistical barriers, more people would come back to hardcore raiding and would remain subbed longer since Epic 10-man progression would be lengthy compared to Heroic;
• Epic 10-man’s would make raiding more attractive for both the Mythic + crowd and the new generation;
• The faction imbalance showed its sharp increase shortly after Mythic 20-man were introduced, and many "Old Heroic" 10-man groups got stuck in the easier and short-lived progression cycle of the new Heroic;
• Many guilds broke, and many people stopped attempting challenging raiding content due to it being locked behind an overly large fixed size;
• Guilds that do heroic raids nowadays with less than 20 players would have another raid option to try after getting AOTC;
• For many people, a 10-man group has a more friendly and healthier environment than a 20-man one, as people usually can run with just their friends or have close bonds with every raider, where everybody knows and hangs with each other most of the time;
• Everyone can talk and have a great time on “Discord” (voice chat) while raiding;
• Fewer recurring discussions, disputes, comparisons, feuds, and tense moments due to the lack of multiple people playing the same classes with different skill levels, and of course due to people having stronger bonds/close relationships in general;

I think this would be a great compromise to bring 10-man challenging raiding content back while keeping the prestige and the RWF of Mythic intact.

--

* Numbers based on 9.2 and the Sepulcher of the First Ones Raid.

Would that Epic mode use Mythic mechanics? I hope it would to the extent that tuning allows.

[Kiria]

Why are they too many? M+ has infinite difficulties. Most ARPGs do as well. If there is going to be an endgame that depends on repeatable content, why not add as much granularity as possible so we can give the maximum number of people something that challenges them?

- - - Updated - - -



Would that Epic mode use Mythic mechanics? I hope it would to the extent that tuning allows.

Because it's alot more Development for something thats used by a minority of the playerbase, if they keep pushing the stupidly hard content then most casual older players will lose interest especially if they focus on catering to the hardcore crowd, that crowd aint so big to be worth it.

Although in my opinion they should just go back to 10 man raids as a minimum and scaling for extra players like they used to.

[Luck4]

Would that Epic mode use Mythic mechanics? I hope it would to the extent that tuning allows.

Yes, this proposed Epic 10-man mode is meant to be tuned the close as possible to Mythic, with the only exception of a few mechanics that would require a specific class/spec.

It's not meant to be a 10-man Mythic, because this time Blizzard will not try to make the 10-man and the 20-man versions equivalent in difficulty. The objective here is to take the 20-man Mythic encounters, scale them accordingly to 10 players, and change/rework the few mechanics that would not fit/work on this size.

[Maell]

Good presentation. But if I had the power I would pass on it. I would prefer the time that would be put into making a new static difficulty to be spent making making 1/2 boss raids that don't wouldn't necessarily debut with the main patch raid.

[Nymrohd]

I do wonder how much work tuning difficulties is. My understanding is they design Heroic, pull back mechanics for Normal and LFR and then design Mythic. I would expect that Normal and LFR are nowhere near as time consuming as the original design is; the hard parts are coming up with main design and making sure the abilities function. Epic would simply be about downscaling Mythic and maybe removing an ability or two.

[Uko]

Sounds like a pita for no reason. If blizzard was to bring back 10 they would have to make it the only option or just not do it at all because there's too many difficulties as is imo. Especially since normal and heroic are already flex and can be done with 10 people if you want.

[thunderdragon2]

sorry m8 as much as it would be nice to see there is just too many difficulties i restrictive difficulty is enough imo sometimes finding 20 is hard enough if you add a 10 many raid wiht similar difficulty to the same lock out as mythic every1 will just take the smaller raid grp look what happened to 25 mans when 10 shared a lockout wiht it.

sorry but its a hard pass for me

[Biomega]

It's too many problems with too little payoff.

I loved 10-man raiding, too. I'd love for it to come back. But I know why it won't. The confusion over modes, loot problems, inherent balancing problems with mechanics, all those things just create a tornado of headaches that just boil down to "it's not worth it".

[cparle87]

I do wonder how much work tuning difficulties is. My understanding is they design Heroic, pull back mechanics for Normal and LFR and then design Mythic. I would expect that Normal and LFR are nowhere near as time consuming as the original design is; the hard parts are coming up with main design and making sure the abilities function. Epic would simply be about downscaling Mythic and maybe removing an ability or two.

Yeah, that's how they said they did it in SoO when they announced the current LFR/normal/heroic/mythic setup in the WoD prepatch.

[Luck4]

The confusion over modes, loot problems, inherent balancing problems with mechanics, all those things just create a tornado of headaches that just boil down to "it's not worth it".

This is why I'm proposing a new difficulty mode instead of 10-man Mythic, since making a 10-man version of 20-man Mythic pretending to be the same difficulty will never work out.

This time around, the 10-man raid will be stated as a slightly inferior raid mode compared to Mythic from start. The objective here is to give a challenge for people that prefer smaller group content to do once they finish their Heroic progression.

[Schwert]

Too many difficulties.
I just want to raid with my friends again. Just bring back the MoP format already.

[Rendark]

Four is already to many raid difficulties dude.

[cparle87]

Too many difficulties.
I just want to raid with my friends again. Just bring back the MoP format already.

Which one? MoP had three styles. The original normal10/heroic10/normal25/heroic25 we'd had since ToC? The flex/normal10/heroic10/normal25/heroic25 that existed only in SoO? Or the modern system added in the WoD prepatch?

[Nymrohd]

Too many difficulties.
I just want to raid with my friends again. Just bring back the MoP format already.

Why is the number of difficulties keeping you from raiding with your friends?

[Ticj]

Why is the number of difficulties keeping you from raiding with your friends?

because there are normal exclusive guilds, heroic exclusive guilds, mythic exclusive guilds, etc

[froschhure]

Call it raid+ and stop wating resources for another hierarchy system