STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[cparle87]

Hah yeah.

I dont really get why LFR excist as it does today. It quite literally does nothing good beyond seeing the inside of a raid and the completion of a story. Its not really a fun grouping experience most of the time and I would bet players just want it over with when doing it.

That's its function. Also all the rest is just a self reinforcing player caused problem. "No one tries in LFR and it's always a shitshow so I'm not going to try." Welcome to becoming part of the problem.

[Syncr]

Let me ask everyone this:

Bob has friends who raid very seriously. They clear mythic every tier, and then open things up to friends and family who can handle mythic, and take them on alt runs. Bob loves raiding mythic, even if he's 9th on the damage meter. Bob plays when he can, sometimes he goes days without playing, sometimes he plays 5 hours in one day, but he never misses the rostered alt raid.

John doesn't raid, but he is working on maxing achievements, collecting mounts, and farming gold. John plays almost every day, usually 6-8 hours a day.
Some days up to 12 hours.

Susan doesn't raid or pvp, but she does a lot of m+. She plays with friends, any chance they can get together. They are working their way up in keys, slowly, as they learn and improve. Susans highest key is a +9.

Lucy used to play at the highest level in PvE - although never world first, she was extremely competitive. She has kids now, and just plays when she has the time. M+ suits her because she doesn't always have 2-3 hours for a raid. Her highest key is a+19, and she cleared heroic with her old guild on a split run, as she happened to be online at the time. She usually only plays around 12 hours per week, when she can.

Based on that information, who is casual, and who is not? If you need any further information to make that decision, just ask, I know them very well and will answer as quickly as I can.

Here’s an answer to your question. It doesn’t matter what the literal definition of a casual is, a casual friendly system can fit into anyones definition of a casual without specifically defining it.

[cparle87]

Pretty sure ppl would not have bought as many boosts if they had to do it illegally. It was very tempting for example to go buy a hc Sylvanas boost on TN EU for 50k gold (yes, that cheap) instead of bothering with progress with your guild. When you have everything right in front of you and there are NO downsides, not even potential ones, no risks, why not do it. Buying illegally would be a risk and at least some would be deterred.
And tbh when blizz introduced that they also started designing limited time rewards for raids that you wouldn't be able to farm later even with 1% drop chance. So you feel tempted to do it just for that. Started with Garrosh heirlooms (that was the big boom) and continued with mounts for end hc raid. After Garrosh, ppl were selling boosts for everything, remember how ppl were buying boosts for just doing a CM even untimed for that one piece of loot in wod?

Remember Prohibition? Something being against the rules is in no way a deterrent from people doing it. In fact following the Forbidden Fruit parable making something against the rules makes it even more enticing through the thrill of possibly getting caught. The best way to get a teenager to do something is to tell them they can't. People 110% would have no problem going back to Chinese gold buyers, like they did for the first decade plus or the game.

[Lurker1]

raiding bores me to tears so does M+ timed content is not for me maybe one day they will be solo content worth a crap.

[arkanon]

Here’s an answer to your question. It doesn’t matter what the literal definition of a casual is, a casual friendly system can fit into anyones definition of a casual without specifically defining it.

So casual is entirely subjective? Then how are Blizzard supposed to make content for those players.

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The only people fighting over what a casual is are people who aren’t casuals and people who are casuals.

So.....Literally everyone.....

[crusadernero]

That's its function. Also all the rest is just a self reinforcing player caused problem. "No one tries in LFR and it's always a shitshow so I'm not going to try." Welcome to becoming part of the problem.

Who said I didnt try when doing it? Everytime I enter LFR I do my best and most of the time I have watched videos of every bossfight beforehand(mostly in case I join pug raids). And as I said, I dont partake alot in LFR beyond the first clear. Theres no point.

You are living in a fantasy world if you believe a automated lfg feature that puts 25 strangers together to kill raid bosses, that more often than not require some kind of effort from everyone, is going to work very well. People are half afk, some are 100% afk, some dont know anything about the class they are playing, some refuse to play good, lots dont know/care about boss mechanics, some goes mad when others tell them "Hey, you should do X instead of Y", 1 wipe = half the raid leaves and you gotta wait. The gear that drops is useless most of the time, especially if you actually want to progress your character. The downsides are numerous.

Whats the upside? You see the inside of raid and you can finish the main storyline. Thats the only plus of it. This can in turn be solved by having LFR as a storymode experience and just slap in AI with you. Go in, see the raid, experience the boss fights at your own pace/merit & finish the storyline. If this format interestets you, raiding with others are waiting in normal, hc & mythic.

[Yriel]

So casual is entirely subjective? Then how are Blizzard supposed to make content for those players.

How are they supposed to make content for raiders? Jim only raids LFR and wipes all the time and Bob is in a world first guild. The differences are too great, they have literally nothing in common.

The whole argument is just a stupid try to one-up people. "Oh im casual, i raid mythic and play m+34 but i'm totally casual, i self identify as one". Yeah great for you. But everyone knows what is commonly meant by casual and casual content if they don't try to be dense on purpose. Again, just a bad faith argument.

[arkanon]

Yeah, LFR is most likely a horrible first experience for newer players that want to raid.

I honestly could not agree more, and have been saying this for YEARS.

FLEX was by far the best introduction to raiding - it was straight forward, for the most part, wasnt overly difficult, and if a particular player was dragging the team down a bit, adding a couple more dps was usually a good solution, which allowed them still to learn the ropes. Flex was the greatest introduction to raiding, and now its a clusterfuck. The difficulty is much, MUCH higher now in normal than it was when flex was first introduced.

I know many will disagree, but my "solution" would be, as many have said, to reduce LFR to a STORY ONLY mode, which can be done solo, or with up to XYZ friends, and the rest are bots. You get to see the story, and maybe if you complete the whole raid you get a nice set of gear at the end, which is enough to get you started on normal mode raiding. People get to see the story, and experience the expansion in its entirety, which i think is a good thing.

Part 2 of this though, is to reduce the difficulty or normal back to an ENTRY LEVEL experience, where new players dont feel overwhelmed, and raid leaders dont feel the need to form a heroic raid group for normal. Anyone claiming normal mode hasnt greatly increased in difficulty since SoO (flex) is simply wrong - i dont care about the math, i dont care about the numbers, it has changed a LOT.

Now, to be fair, I typically raid mythic, so i dont PERSONALLY find normal to be "too hard", but, im the minority and i know that. Many people i play with in friends and family raids have been commenting on it for quite some time, starting in legion, and just getting "worse". There have also been some tiers that were quite easy, and that same group did a bunch of heroic bosses as well, but those are exceptions to the rule.

TBH, i would be fine with the removal of ONE of heroic / normal, but really, it would need to be heroic, which is a fucking shame because its the real NORMAL difficulty, and i think THAT is what has been forgotten. What we know as heroic now, was once the STANDARD difficulty of all raids. Comparing Heroic now to early raids, its glaringly obvious the difficulty has gone through the roof.

Remember that - what is now heroic was once just RAID. They have since done a variety of things - they added 1 difficulty above it, and 2 below it, and yet even the one BELOW it is harder than nearly everything that came before.

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Yeah great for you. But everyone knows what is commonly meant by casual and casual content if they don't try to be dense on purpose. Again, just a bad faith argument.

Buddy, there are multiple people in this very thread who cannot agree on what casual means - the only bad faith argument here is you claiming its common knowledge - its not, and none of you can agree on what it is.

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How are they supposed to make content for raiders? Jim only raids LFR and wipes all the time and Bob is in a world first guild. The differences are too great, they have literally nothing in common.

They LITERALLY both enjoy raiding. Blizzard make content for both of them by having more than one difficulty.

[potis]

Let me ask everyone this:

Bob has friends who raid very seriously. They clear mythic every tier, and then open things up to friends and family who can handle mythic, and take them on alt runs. Bob loves raiding mythic, even if he's 9th on the damage meter. Bob plays when he can, sometimes he goes days without playing, sometimes he plays 5 hours in one day, but he never misses the rostered alt raid.

John doesn't raid, but he is working on maxing achievements, collecting mounts, and farming gold. John plays almost every day, usually 6-8 hours a day.
Some days up to 12 hours.

Susan doesn't raid or pvp, but she does a lot of m+. She plays with friends, any chance they can get together. They are working their way up in keys, slowly, as they learn and improve. Susans highest key is a +9.

Lucy used to play at the highest level in PvE - although never world first, she was extremely competitive. She has kids now, and just plays when she has the time. M+ suits her because she doesn't always have 2-3 hours for a raid. Her highest key is a+19, and she cleared heroic with her old guild on a split run, as she happened to be online at the time. She usually only plays around 12 hours per week, when she can.

Based on that information, who is casual, and who is not? If you need any further information to make that decision, just ask, I know them very well and will answer as quickly as I can.

Cause the casual argument is a mentality, not a time based variable as people want it to be.

They just need the excuse to deflect their lower skill in the current iterations of WoW because in the first iterations of WoW, the people that played more, progressed faster, which faster was just a delusion cause everyone was terrible either way and the difficulty was non-existent.

What argument that can actually be made is that unless at some point in the game, the more "Hardcore" mentality, led you into playing more cause you wanted to improve, you will obviously always be bad at the game, and self-proclaim yourself as casual.

[arkanon]

Cause the casual argument is a mentality, not a time based variable as people want it to be.

They just need the excuse to deflect their lower skill in the current iterations of WoW because in the first iterations of WoW, the people that played more, progressed faster, which faster was just a delusion cause everyone was terrible either way and the difficulty was non-existent.

I tend to agree with the first part, generally speaking. As you can see, using my examples, people really cant agree on it. I tried to offer examples that cover both difficulty of content, and time played, and that threw people for a loop. Because asking this question seems far more straigh forwardd:

Bob is a world first raider and plays professionally, in a team, fully sponsored, while having a streaming contract with twitch, for 8-18 hours per day.

Karl plays for pet battles and often goes 2-3 weeks without playing.

Thats how people like to view the casual vs non-casual debate, and its simply not accurate at all, as it excludes like 90%+ of the player-base, with my example being intentionally extreme, just before someone cries about it.

[Skildar]

I'd rather have casual being tied to time investment rather than the difficulty that one sets to themself.

I'll always find someone raiding heroic or mythic a couple of nights to be more casual than someone that does LFR on 8 different characters all week nights.

[potis]

I tend to agree with the first part, generally speaking. As you can see, using my examples, people really cant agree on it. I tried to offer examples that cover both difficulty of content, and time played, and that threw people for a loop. Because asking this question seems far more straigh forwardd:

Bob is a world first raider and plays professionally, in a team, fully sponsored, while having a streaming contract with twitch, for 8-18 hours per day.

Karl plays for pet battles and often goes 2-3 weeks without playing.

Thats how people like to view the casual vs non-casual debate, and its simply not accurate at all, as it excludes like 90%+ of the player-base.

More like 99% of the playerbase.

Exactly, cause it suits their needs, as i said, especially on mmo-champion and reddit, youtube videos and generally the echo chambers they self-create, they like to self-proclaim themselves as casuals to cover for the lack of something else.

But at the same time, there is a time based variable in the argument of it, its just not the main variable as they want it to be.

If someone wants to improve at something, or get better at something, or learn, they tend to spend more time doing it, so the mentality of each human towards an activity, reflects their time spent in it.

WoW is the same, you must have had the mentality to improve at some point and you played more, but after that, its literally personal skill/reflexes and lastly, human connections that can provide both, hardcore mentality, and casual playstyle.

[Chromell]

Even with the nicest guild in the world, clearing anything higher than LFR is gonna be impossible unless you have certain gear, and certain skill etc. The game is no longer wipe free content that anyone can clear. Just wish we had ONE mode that was like that, not even LFR is like that.

LFR is the closest the game has to afk content, and raiding has four difficulties. Why is it bad that the game requires at least a bit of skill? What's the point of playing a game that poses no challenge at all?

[Biomega]

I don't think Blizzard uses "casual" or "hardcore" as anything more than communication words or shorthand.

For design, they're probably grouping players very differently based on specific metrics - including type of content, time investment, goals, etc. and design around various demographics. Not just "casual vs. hardcore" which is an incredibly vague and simplistic way of categorizing things.

[arkanon]

More like 99% of the playerbase.

Oh absolutely, I just try not to use such extreme percentages (even when they are accurate) because there is ALWAYS some dickhead who pipes up and argues (not you, btw, just saying). But i do agree - world first being like, 0.001% or something insane, and the other extreme example being AT MOST 0.1%

[Spiroz]

A lot of people are bringing up the idea that why do casuals want higher gear if they don't achieve it etc (extreme paraphrasing here)

And it made me think is this something new or has this idea been as loud as it is now as it was in yesteryear

I think the issue and cause for a lot of this dilemma is actually based around pugs and gearscore not so much the content to achieve said gear.

Since gearscores implementation people (even dirty casuals) have felt gated behind this wall and thus the desire for easily obtained gear.

In guilds this isnt a huge issue as people will just bring along competent people and get the shit done regardless of gearscore or ilvl.

However now that the game shifts to a casual basis and more people play the pug game they are forced to jump on lfd or lfr and have a huge issue getting into groups to obtain content.

This is where I think the real divide is, not casual vs hardcore but actually guild vs guildless

I don't think I could play this game as a solely pug player and enjoy it as majority of the game would be waiting for someone to accept me into raid etc

I don't have a solution just thought it might be an interesting topic that it's no longer really about how often someone plays but more how they play / engage with the community

[arkanon]

Exactly, cause it suits their needs, as i said, especially on mmo-champion and reddit, youtube videos and generally the echo chambers they self-create, they like to self-proclaim themselves as casuals to cover for the lack of something else.

Yeah im in a weird situation where even when I was a mythic raider, i was an average / below average MYTHIC raider, but accept that still put me in a small percentage of the playerbase. I think for me it was easy to stay "grounded" because I always maintained a great relationship with normal/heroic raiders and loved doing that too, and even some sub par normal mode raiders. EVEN THEN they make up a fraction of wows playerbase, with most not even touching normal, let alone heroic or mythic.

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Since gearscores implementation people (even dirty casuals) have felt gated behind this wall and thus the desire for easily obtained gear.

You touch on this further down, so im not correcting you, but rather adding to it. Those gates are entirely in their head. Their gear doesnt limit their ability to progress further into raiding - their willingness to work with others, join a guild, a community, or work with a fixed roster is what limits it, along with their unwillingness or inability to form their own group, with their own rules, and lead it. I see it far too often - players geared and skilled enough to clear the raid, but not while also managing other players, forming a group, and dealing with all the bullshit that comes with that - and trust me, anyone who forms and runs pugs on a regular basis will agree there is SO MUCH DRAMA, and that drama only increases when gear and ability is at the minimum required for the raid.

I could take my freinds and family guild who have played with me for 15 odd years, and clear said raid with an average of 1000 ilvl. I could then form a pug raid, with the same 1000 average ilvl, and it could either be a nice, smooth raid, or FAR MORE LIKELY an absolute clusterfuck of ppl quitting after the boss doesnt drop their item, quitting because they lost a roll on an item (masterloot days) quitting because their FRIEND missed items, because they think the dps is too low, because they dont like how the tanks are tanking, etc etc etc. These things are never (or almost never) an issue when playing with a dedicated group of players who are familiar with each other.

Partly this is because we are generally far more forgiving of friends - i raided with a druid who was always BLAZED off his ass every raid - he would doze off mid fight and we would hear him snoring - but we would all just hysterically laugh and keep going, and wait for him when he woke up. This wouldnt be the case with a pug.

[cparle87]

Who said I didnt try when doing it? Everytime I enter LFR I do my best and most of the time I have watched videos of every bossfight beforehand(mostly in case I join pug raids). And as I said, I dont partake alot in LFR beyond the first clear. Theres no point.

You are living in a fantasy world if you believe a automated lfg feature that puts 25 strangers together to kill raid bosses, that more often than not require some kind of effort from everyone, is going to work very well. People are half afk, some are 100% afk, some dont know anything about the class they are playing, some refuse to play good, lots dont know/care about boss mechanics, some goes mad when others tell them "Hey, you should do X instead of Y", 1 wipe = half the raid leaves and you gotta wait. The gear that drops is useless most of the time, especially if you actually want to progress your character. The downsides are numerous.

Whats the upside? You see the inside of raid and you can finish the main storyline. Thats the only plus of it. This can in turn be solved by having LFR as a storymode experience and just slap in AI with you. Go in, see the raid, experience the boss fights at your own pace/merit & finish the storyline. If this format interestets you, raiding with others are waiting in normal, hc & mythic.

Nothing you said argued against what I said. You just agreed with me, you know.

[Spiroz]

Yeah im in a weird situation where even when I was a mythic raider, i was an average / below average MYTHIC raider, but accept that still put me in a small percentage of the playerbase. I think for me it was easy to stay "grounded" because I always maintained a great relationship with normal/heroic raiders and loved doing that too, and even some sub par normal mode raiders. EVEN THEN they make up a fraction of wows playerbase, with most not even touching normal, let alone heroic or mythic.

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You touch on this further down, so im not correcting you, but rather adding to it. Those gates are entirely in their head. Their gear doesnt limit their ability to progress further into raiding - their willingness to work with others, join a guild, a community, or work with a fixed roster is what limits it, along with their unwillingness or inability to form their own group, with their own rules, and lead it. I see it far too often - players geared and skilled enough to clear the raid, but not while also managing other players, forming a group, and dealing with all the bullshit that comes with that - and trust me, anyone who forms and runs pugs on a regular basis will agree there is SO MUCH DRAMA, and that drama only increases when gear and ability is at the minimum required for the raid.

I could take my freinds and family guild who have played with me for 15 odd years, and clear said raid with an average of 1000 ilvl. I could then form a pug raid, with the same 1000 average ilvl, and it could either be a nice, smooth raid, or FAR MORE LIKELY an absolute clusterfuck of ppl quitting after the boss doesnt drop their item, quitting because they lost a roll on an item (masterloot days) quitting because their FRIEND missed items, because they think the dps is too low, because they dont like how the tanks are tanking, etc etc etc. These things are never (or almost never) an issue when playing with a dedicated group of players who are familiar with each other.

Partly this is because we are generally far more forgiving of friends - i raided with a druid who was always BLAZED off his ass every raid - he would doze off mid fight and we would hear him snoring - but we would all just hysterically laugh and keep going, and wait for him when he woke up. This wouldnt be the case with a pug.

Yeah I agree with a lot of what you said mate!

It's a weird situation we are in, I think the game needs guilds to succeed but when people ask for "casual content" they are asking for guildless content

Don't get me wrong this is something that they should devote some time to but I hardly think the longevity of the game would survive if they abolished all community aspects of the game.

Maybe if it went free to play and became more focused on gatcha content lol but not if you want long-term engaged players.

Its the same reason you see a massive drought of players after a launch, people play the content and leave the ones left are people in communities and pushing harder content.

What content would keep someone around that is not in a guild outside of launch material and maybe mounts and mog? I am confused to what this would look like I guess

[arkanon]

Yeah I agree with a lot of what you said mate!

It's a weird situation we are in, I think the game needs guilds to succeed but when people ask for "casual content" they are asking for guildless content

Don't get me wrong this is something that they should devote some time to but I hardly think the longevity of the game would survive if they abolished all community aspects of the game.

Maybe if it went free to play and became more focused on gatcha content lol but not if you want long-term engaged players.

Its the same reason you see a massive drought of players after a launch, people play the content and leave the ones left are people in communities and pushing harder content.

What content would keep someone around that is not in a guild outside of launch material and maybe mounts and mog? I am confused to what this would look like I guess

Dont make a habit of agreeing with me, people round here wont like that. Im not saying dont make content for solo players, not at all, im simply saying players who prefer playing solo will really struggle to make the move to group content unless they have a guild/community/group of friends.