Says who? Are you the arbiter of comparative difficulty? If you think max level keys are too easy for the gear they drop then say so. Stop with the ad hominem already because you can't get your point across.
Fyi, the guy doing the 15 keys get a mythic level piece once a week. So yes, a guy doing 15s does get better stuff and a longer progression curve than a heroic raider.
Last edited by cparle87; 2022-05-21 at 12:53 PM.
The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.
But thats the thing, its not laughable, its one of the main discussions for the last , easily 12 years in WoW life.
Thats why the quote "Anyone that plays less than me is a scrub and anyone that plays more than me is a hardcore" is basically describing the WoW Community the last 12 years.
Again, this is the same discussion as always, people just refuse to accept their skill level and the "hierarchy" they create in their head, to prove to themselves cause there is no other way to say this, that they arent shit, or wasting their time.
Cause people that play less than them and progress much further/faster, dont fit their narrative to defend their lack of skill.
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Which is the only reason i am still playing with the guys i am playing, i can tolerate wiping 20 extra hours in a span of 4 months because the Vault system exists cause
1)I am done gearing from M+ and vault long before we even clear HC most of the time (I can admit i get really lucky the first few weeks >_>)
2)The decent players get geared up faster to carry the weaker players which saves me from simply quitting this game totally, cause the next time i get burnt out is probably gonna be the last.
Although Sepulcher is very close to doing so, such joke easy bosses, but the weaker players are exhausting me
Last edited by potis; 2022-05-21 at 01:23 PM.
The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.
Its not exactly that, if you have common sense.
Did the make the timegating clearly more obvious than before? Yes.
But what exactly is the difference between "Farm 10-20 dailies for 60 days in a row to unlock the questline!" better than "Everything will be unlocked in 8 weeks".
The true casual doesnt even know this happened, again, the true casual doesnt follow the game, the average whiner complainer that has been playing for 10 years but never really understood the game or got better? Hell of course they complain, they dont even know why they are complaining.
The above is for the pointless content, for gearing routes, M+ and Vault, combined with at least HC raiding, you are pretty much done gearing in 2 months with some basic luck, which is faster than anything that existed before this system.
Problem is, people dont accept "Just do a M+5 and get your 260 item in the vault" since thats your skill level cap, when the 278 item exists, despite that never happening in the game, lately their narrative is literally twisted to something completely lacking common sense.
"Out of all those games out there, i chose WoW and paid 15$ and i spent 5 hours online failing completely at the game and ruined 3 M+5 keys, i better get a full Mythic set as a reward before my sub is over or i am going to FFXIV! to pay the sub for 1 year and get my set there!"
Well okay?
Last edited by potis; 2022-05-21 at 02:33 PM.
Tomato, tomato (this expression is not good in text but I'm sure you heard it). We simply have different definitions of the word.
To me, if we split it into Casual Vs. Hardcore, casual is only the LEVEL of gaming you do.
Pushing world records in speedruns or realm firsts, but also hard stuff like completing hard single player games on the toughest difficulty or raiding mythic, or competing on face.it in CS:GO goes under the category Hardcore for me, you play hard things that require alot of focus, dedication, skill etc.
Casual is everything else, easy, chill stuff, it doesn't matter how much time you spend.
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LFR today is honestly 10 TIMES harder than LFR was in Dragon Soul, the first LFR we had. LFR is far too hard for what it should be. LFR should be the unfailable, unwipeable tourist viewer mode, where you can do it with any gear, any skill and any IQ. It is NOT like that today, not even close.
I like some challenge, but all modes today are far too hard. Heroic nowadays is harder than most previous expansions Mythic difficulties, same with Normal today being harder than Heroic in the past.
And to me, I never ever valued difficulty. I prefer LFR difficulty, or like Molten Core in classic. The FUN comes from getting together, communicating, laughing, killing stuff together and just chilling. I get NOTHING out of pushing hard mechanics. I get that some do, but WoW, even Retail, is sort of a dadgamer boomer game by now, ALL difficulties are too hard for most of us. They don't cater to the majority anymore.
Yet as the game is getting more and more content for casual players (you can get mythic raid ilvl gear by just doing dungeons, or legendaries by solo-ing Torghast), the lower the sub numbers are.
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Then it shouldn't give any rewards if it's just Tourist mode. Because if it does in a braindead tourism mode then you're literally getting rewarded for not even playing. And if you think that isn't inherently a bad thing then you don't understand how Videogames should work.
And if you think the game is too hard then honestly you should stop playing. I can't think of many games that are easier than WoW.
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Absolutely not lmao. Not even remotely close.
20 is closer to heroic raiding.
Originally Posted by Aydinx2
Why are you so against rewards for easy content? Why does the game have to be so elitistic and focused on "fairness". Don't wanna get too political, but I prefer a socialist game over a capitalist one, and we have the latter now. This game should be for everyone, everyone should be able to enjoy it and have fun, we all pay the same subscription. I hate the idea that some areas of the game are inaccessible for most of us, just cause we lack either skill or time.
This reads like a casual lifestyle player to me
I actually think this describes a lot of people on this forum who just don't want to admit it. The other major group here seems to be Hardcore Hobbyists who basically only want to raidlog.
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This entirely depends on the season. 20s were much harder in s1. Everything has shifted like 4-5 key levels
A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore
Ohhh. So you just choose to spout off outdated information rather than verifying it. Cool.
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Where did they say they were against rewards for easy content? They didn't. They suggested not giving rewards for non-participation. And fr someone who claims they don't want to get political, you sure went out of your way to get political.
You are always so full of lies it gets annoying to read.
You dont want fairness, you just want the gear, you shown this before for years in your posts, you think are you entitled to it by existing because at some point in your life you got carried in a Mythic or HC pug and you believe you are some sort of special snowflake.
There is not a single area that is not accessible in the game, M+0, M+2 and M+15 all have the same abilities and colors and pixels on the bosses.
LFR is now the same, the way the bosses are designed they cant remove core abilities so you literally have almost 1:1 bosses with Heroic with their damage nerfed by 90% (well not Anduin for obvious reasons) which makes LFR harder but you see everything the game has to offer.
Compared to target dummies we have had in previous expansions with every ability almost disabled.
Enough with the lies, some of us -actually know how the game works-.
And because you guys dont get it cause apparently its hard to grasp.
Just because everything is called a MMORPG, doesnt mean it doesnt belong to a different subgenre, but thats too hard to grasp the last few years.
Go play the MMORPG with the free gear instead.
Last edited by potis; 2022-05-21 at 04:41 PM.
You call it elitism when really it is just common sense. In a videogame you're supposed to do something in order to get rewards. This isn't a movie that you can just watch and get through no matter what. A book doesn't go "well you misread that word so now you need to re-do the entire chapter".
I'm fine with LFR giving the rewards it currently gives (except tier armor, since it forces non-LFR players to play LFR). But if you want it to be easier, then the rewards need to be worse.
Then you don't understand what videogames are for, and you are not the target audience of WoW. If you're unable to kill a boss, you don't get the rewards it drops. It's that simple. What gives value to rewards in videogames is that not everyone gets them. WoW has been giving better rewards for easier content for years now and the game has only been losing players.
You don't see me brag to my friends that I have a water tap in my home. If I had a coca-cola fountain I'd probably brag though.
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If you don't find the "mad skillz" of someone with better gear impressive, what is blocking you from doing that same content and getting the gear? You sure seem to have a low opinion of people who get their gear in dungeons but then you can't seem to do the same?
You getting that gear for ZM content actually does diminish raiders enjoyment of the game. Rewards in WoW only have value if not everyone can get them, and that value is increased by the amount of effort it takes to obtain them. If some random guy gets 272 gear for finishing the ZM console, then the value of the loot in the raid becomes worse because you can get them with easier content. Why do you think people find a Glory of the X Raider mounts more impressive than a horse or wolf from a vendor in Orgrimmar? Because not everyone has them, and it took some effort to get it.
And like you said: you really don't need better than 250 for what you're doing. So why do you pretend like not getting 272 is a problem? The only explanation that exists for your comment is jealousy. If raiders didn't get 272 but also got the 250 you got from ZM, you wouldn't be complaining. But since they are getting something you can't, it's suddenly a problem.
Originally Posted by Aydinx2
Comments like this give me such a giggle. It's like, you can't even see your hypocrisy even when you state it within one sentence. Maybe it's more a lack of empathy or just the ability to see something from another person's viewpoint. Either way, this sentence is laughable.
Have you done LFR in Mists?
I remember wiping on third boss in Heart of Fear for hours on LFR because some melees didnt read chat when people told them repeatedly not to stand in the circle directly under the boss.
He stomps a few times and everyone is dead - compare that to LFR now u can down the bosses with 1-2 reasonable dps, tanks and mb 1-2 healers who know what they are doing
I think its "tourist mode"
Make it easier and you could just remove the bosses altogether and just put a loot chest in it.
LFR should provide a minimal challenge aka have 1-2 mechanics but if u fail them it does not wipe the raid but at least do damage so that maybe 1-2 people die (mb just the ones which failed) but still be killeable with only 1/3 to half the raid alive
I think this is a good sweetspot
And you did nothing to actually point out what you find wrong with the argument. You instead chose to attack me as a person instead of simply giving your counterpoint. Says a lot about you.
If you're doing LFR and nothing harder you don't need tier pieces. Period. But their dropping in LFR forces non-LFR players to play LFR because of how powerful the set bonuses are.
Do you see the problem here? Nobody is forcing LFR players to do harder content, but people who do harder content are forced to do LFR, which is absolute garbage because most people can't even find their damage buttons.
Clearly the hypocrite is you if you think it's fine to force people to do content they don't want to. But if it were up to me LFR as a difficulty wouldn't exist at all, because it gives birth to players who suddenly feel entitled to the rewards from harder raids simply because they managed to click a "Join Queue" button.
Originally Posted by Aydinx2
you're kinda just arguing for reasons for blizz to spend less on raids. the more people who sign up to do lfr the more justified the cost of making the raids is.
if there's no reason for anyone to do lfr you'll suddenly find yourself with less money spent on your raids.
so if you feel forced to do lfr to get an edge i'd say that's a small price to pay.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
That makes literally no sense when LFR has not existed for the majority of WoW's lifetime.
And not having LFR drop tier does not mean people don't have a reason to do LFR. They were doing LFR just fine in 9.0 and 9.1. What's changed that they suddenly would not do LFR without tier drops?
Originally Posted by Aydinx2
Meh. I actually don't find it "impressive" at all. Maybe that's the difference. You pay your $15 in support of Blizzard and the game, and you play the content you like to play, the way you like to play it (casual, competitive, whatever). I don't care. You're the best X-class on your server? Kudos. You and I aren't going to cross paths unless you happen to buy something of mine on the AH (in which case, "thanks!"). I'm not jealous of your gear. I'm not jealous of your mount. I'm not jealous of whatever the hell your achievement score is. I just don't care. Nothing about what *I* do has anything to do with you. I want some opportunity to improve my gear to get through my dailies and run older raids for fun and profit faster doing the thinks I like to do (which again, does not include raiding, PvP or mythic keys).
I pay my $15 a month too, I support the game, and I play the content I want to. I have every recipe for every crafting profession and I work the living crap out of the AH, I'm top 3 on my server for collecting pets, I have the Esteemed title for 100 exalted reps. So what? None of that took any particular skill. It just took time and effort, and I don't see why effort, in any form, shouldn't be rewarded in some way. You'll get the higher ilvl gear sooner because you did the level of content that gave you access to it quicker. I'm a tortoise, you're a hare. Why does my getting to the finish line (272+) bother you so much? Do you think that just because I finally hit 272 I'm going to start jumping into your rated matches or your key runs and/or ruining raid night? No. Why? Because I don't DO any of that stuff and don't enjoy it. 272 gear isn't going to suddenly make any of that fun for me, but I think I deserve to be rewarded for my effort (such as it is) nonetheless because while it isn't the same kind of time and effort you invested, it was time and effort nonetheless.
Maybe try to think of a similar situation, but in a different context. Look at a low wage earner. Maybe they're unloading trucks, hauling mulch, cleaning hotel rooms, sacking groceries and collecting carts ... whatever. Does that person not "work"? If that person saves for several years and finally saves enough in 2024 to buy a 2018 Infiniti with 200,000 miles on it, are they not deserving of that car because you happened to work hard yourself, doing a different job that paid better, and you bought your Infiniti brand new off the lot in '18? Do you think people are comparing you to that low wage earner when you both get out of your matching Infiniti's in the grocery store parking lot at the same time? Does the low wage earner buying the same car 6 years later strip all the enjoyment you ever got out of yours? Does it diminish your "accomplishment"?