Bring 10-man hardcore raiding back in Dragonflight with a twist!

[Tiev]

Anything that allows me to have the highest raid challenge without setting foot in an impersonal 20-man raid gets my vote.

[Erolian]

I don't think it misses the point because it's near, if not impossible, to make both 20-man and 10-man at the same level of difficulty. This is one of the main reasons why 10-man went extinct.

What I'm proposing, is a 10-man mode that will be challenging as possible taking into account the reduced group size, and without requiring specific classes/specs abilities.

It went extinct because Blizzard removed it. It would be by far the most popular way to raid to this day if they had not. What you're suggesting would be dead on arrival content because anyone looking for challenging content and is capable will also want to be rewarded. So if you give 20 man higher ilvl rewards that is what people will do. Something a lot of people gloss over is how almost every single 25 man guild in the game died despite it actually being more rewarding in terms of total loot and mounts than 10 man ever was. That's because the extra hassle just wasn't worth it to people. If you made this just another raid difficulty below end game but closer to mythic then anyone capable would just do mythic instead because they're not going to make that time investment/commitment for less and if its even easier than that and closer to heroic it will be too easy to attract them

[Luck4]

It went extinct because Blizzard removed it. It would be by far the most popular way to raid to this day if they had not. What you're suggesting would be dead on arrival content because anyone looking for challenging content and is capable will also want to be rewarded. So if you give 20 man higher ilvl rewards that is what people will do.

Yeah, that's right. I'm not trying to propose a Mythic replacement but rather a raid option for people that like challenging content for smaller groups.

If it will be DOA though, we'll have an idea once WOTLK Classic launches.

[Erolian]

Yeah, that's right. I'm not trying to propose a Mythic replacement but rather a raid option for people that like challenging content for smaller groups.

If it will be DOA though, we'll have an idea once WOTLK Classic launches.

No we won't lol. 10 man raids in wotlk are joke content that people do for the occasional bis side piece or trinket because they have different loot tables. They aren't remotely the same difficulty. That's not to say that 10 man guilds or whatever didn't exist but you're looking at today's heroic atoc guilds and lower for a similar venue

[Luck4]

No we won't lol. 10 man raids in wotlk are joke content that people do for the occasional bis side piece or trinket because they have different loot tables. They aren't remotely the same difficulty. That's not to say that 10 man guilds or whatever didn't exist but you're looking at today's heroic atoc guilds and lower for a similar venue

Do you think it'll be DOA purely based on rewards, just look at Mythic +, everyone thought it would be a gimmick activity back in Legion, nowadays it's a popularity mammoth, and there are plenty of people doing 22+ keys that never stepped inside a Mythic raid, even the raid having some BiS gear, mounts, titles, and an overall higher item level.

Yet, I'm still eager to know how popular WOTLK Classic 10-man Heroic will be.

[Coldkil]

So, in an already bloated difficulty system, let's add another one which isn't even on par with the hardest.

Only way for 10man returning is Blizzard literally make Mythic 10man. Everything below is flex so doesn't really matter (and it's more than fine).

So, no.

[kenn9530]

LOL Skill is not the issue... unlike the guy I quoted I have completed numerous curves in the past and quite easily got through the mage towers, so yeah... I could probably even beat you in PvP...

Everyone should have the opportunity to do what they want to do, it should not be exclusive to no life basement dwellers.

You do have the same oppertunity, its not hard to pug and clear all mythic content, you can even make your own group and do it once or twice a week whenever you want. CE is 100% puggable it just takes a little longer. 10 man content wouldnt solve anything as it would still take up a ton of time actually doing the content, 10 man isnt really any faster in doing the content by much.

[Erolian]

Another misconception, especially at the time, is that 10 man was easier. It actually went both ways or was even harder and easier in the same boss fight. Siegecrafter and Garrosh for example were actually harder for 10 than 25 where paragons was the opposite. Lei Shen for example was overall probably harder for a 25 man team however the intermissions were quite hard for 10 man by comparison and simple things like the adds that dks gripped posed more of an issue because of a lack of personnel.

Blizzard removed it because they were tired of trying so hard to balance both but overall they actually did a pretty good job of it with both 10 and 25 sometimes being the harder road in terms of the actual gameplay but usually they were pretty much the same and people in the 10 and 25 man groups were both earning their loot fairly. They tried to have more loot drop per person in a 25 man and gave them more mounts and such to account for the increased "social" costs of having to run a guild that large. It didn't work and players overwhelmingly chose to play in smaller groups that fit themselves better rather than the 25 mans which I think is okay. I raided in both sizes and I think the players really lost when Blizzard decided on one raid size. Its hard to explain to people how much more enjoyable doing content where you wipe hundreds of times is when you actually like the entire raid vs how it is dealing with people you maybe don't prefer as much but need due to the raid size

[saintminya]

I'd be more inclined to do 10-man raids than 20, not because of difficulty but the group size makes it easier to assemble a crew of friends/acquaintances. I wouldn't say that we really need an Epic difficulty though, just that I would run it if it were to be implemented.

[loras]

DISCLAIMER: This thread is not about 10-man Mythic raids.

As Wrath of Lich King Classic approaches, I keep scratching my head about how we could have a hardcore 10-man raid option nowadays without destroying the 20-man scene that people care about.

After reading many threads all these years since WoD came out, I got to the conclusion that it all boils down to balancing issues, as Blizzard tried to make a 10-man version equivalent to a 25-man one. But we don't need that, and the answer lies within the Wrath of the Lich King expansion itself, where 10-man was treated literally as an in-between difficulty, instead of trying to be an equivalent version of a much bigger size raid like Blizzard tried in Cataclysm - Mists of Pandaria.

I mean, there's a very huge difficulty gap between Heroic and Mythic nowadays, so why not give something to all these people that quit after finishing Heroic, because they don't like/don't have enough players for the much bigger sized Mythic? A 10-man challenging version of the raid would also be attractive for the massive Mythic + crowd, and the new generation that prefers content meant for smaller groups.

So, how this would work out?

First off, keep in mind that this is not meant to be a 10-man Mythic, so the first thing that we need to do is detach people from that perspective, and the only way to do it is by treating this 10-man raid as a new difficulty, and since we're creating a new difficulty, we gonna need a new name, so in this thread, we'll be calling it: "Epic" a fixed 10-man raid size.

This is an example of what the difficulty chart would look like:



Design

Epic 10-man would use fairly the same Mythic 20-man mechanics and stats but scaled down to a 10-player group scenario, and would only change the few specific boss mechanics where we would need a specific class ability to do it, since we need to take into account that the Epic 10-man group will not have every single class in the group. So, mechanics that would require "Mind Control" or "Spellsteal", for example, would need to work differently, but would still need to pose a challenge in a 10-man environment.

Since Mythic 20-man requires a lot more group coordination, would be unfair to compare both difficulties, as the Mythic 20-man could have a mechanic where 3 meteors have to be soaked, while Epic 10-man would have only 1 meteor (a common situation in Cataclysm/Mists of Pandaria 10-man era), however, the effects would still be the same, like wiping the raid if not soaked, and would also apply the same nasty debuff.

Timegating

Like LFR, "Epic 10-man" would be gated, which would make World First guilds avoid it. This is an example of the raid unlocking schedule:

• Week 1: Normal and Heroic unlock;
• Week 2: First Wing LFR and Mythic 20-man unlock;
• Week 4: Second Wing LFR and Epic 10-man unlock;

Loot *

• 5 items for a single Mythic 20-man boss, 278 item level (example);
• 2 items for a single Epic 10-man boss, 274 item level (example), just two item levels above a fully upgraded Mythic+ base item;
  
  • Epic 10-man Great Vault would reward the same item level of a +15 Mythic; *

Raid Lockout

• Epic 10-man and Mythic 20-man would share the same raid lockout;

Prestige

• Epic 10-man guilds wouldn’t be able to get Hall of Fame titles/achievements;
• The last boss mount wouldn’t be a guaranteed drop;
• None or reduced drop chance for legendaries compared to Mythic 20-man;
• Separated achievements for Epic 10-man and Mythic 20-man, example:
  
  • Cutting Edge: The Jailer (20-player)
    Defeat The Jailer in the Sepulcher of the First Ones on 20-Player Mythic difficulty, before the release of the next raid tier.
  • Vanguard: The Jailer (10-player)
    Defeat The Jailer in the Sepulcher of the First Ones on 10-Player Epic difficulty, before the release of the next raid tier.
  • Ahead of the Curve: The Jailer
    Defeat The Jailer in the Sepulcher of the First Ones on Heroic difficulty or higher, before the release of the next raid tier.

Why do we need a 10-man challenging raid difficulty?

• Without the logistical barriers, more people would come back to hardcore raiding and would remain subbed longer since Epic 10-man progression would be lengthy compared to Heroic;
• Epic 10-man’s would make raiding more attractive for both the Mythic + crowd and the new generation;
• The faction imbalance showed its sharp increase shortly after Mythic 20-man were introduced, and many "Old Heroic" 10-man groups got stuck in the easier and short-lived progression cycle of the new Heroic;
• Many guilds broke, and many people stopped attempting challenging raiding content due to it being locked behind an overly large fixed size;
• Guilds that do heroic raids nowadays with less than 20 players would have another raid option to try after getting AOTC;
• For many people, a 10-man group has a more friendly and healthier environment than a 20-man one, as people usually can run with just their friends or have close bonds with every raider, where everybody knows and hangs with each other most of the time;
• Everyone can talk and have a great time on “Discord” (voice chat) while raiding;
• Fewer recurring discussions, disputes, comparisons, feuds, and tense moments due to the lack of multiple people playing the same classes with different skill levels, and of course due to people having stronger bonds/close relationships in general;

I think this would be a great compromise to bring 10-man challenging raiding content back while keeping the prestige and the RWF of Mythic intact.

--

* Numbers based on 9.2 and the Sepulcher of the First Ones Raid.

We need less difficulties, not more.
Or at least less categories of item rarity.

Personally i would advise looking at it from the ground up: Why does this difficulty exist? What does that mean?

Let those who really want a challenge just do it for the challenge; award them only cosmetics with stat equivalents to a lower tier of gear (think mythic+ skins on heroic items). That way you can tune as tightly as you want, because you can expect one particular level of gear, making it easier to tune for different raid sizes because you've shut down one variable.

[Luck4]

I wouldn't say that we really need an Epic difficulty though, just that I would run it if it were to be implemented.

This is the whole point, people that like small group content would have a raid option past Heroic progression, which is fairly short and easy.

And by presenting it as a lower bracket compared to Mythic 20-man, Blizzard will not have to handle the same nightmarish balance process we had in Mist of Pandaria.

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Personally i would advise looking at it from the ground up: Why does this difficulty exist?

To accommodate the people that like small group content past Heroic progression, which is short compared to a usual tier/patch life-span.

What does that mean?

More people raiding, or raiding for a longer period.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

how about ehm no? bad players allready have 3 raid modes they dont need a 4th one and good players allready have a fixed 20 man raid and we love it,

WoW does alot worng but rading isnt one of those worngs in fact its the reason why WoW still exist if it wasnt for how good the raiding is i (and all i know) would have quited 10 years ago

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Another misconception, especially at the time, is that 10 man was easier. It actually went both ways or was even harder and easier in the same boss fight. Siegecrafter and Garrosh for example were actually harder

nope, as someone who holds the WR 9 in ToT and WR 6 SoO with TG Gaming i can asure you it was easier on 10 man cuz you had less ppl to fuck up and less rng, good players can handle pressure well + you had a biger chance cuz you spilted your raid team of 30 man into 3 and went ham 24/7 in 3 shifts lol

[Cosmic Janitor]

Adding just another difficulty would just fracture the raiding population even more, especially for a difficulty that requires a schedule. While I applaud smaller group sizes in endgame content - and I'd argue 10, while better, is still too large to an improvement for the average joe - at the end of the day it would be better to seek out alternative means of adjusting group sizes and difficulties if possible. I don't believe affix raiding next season is going to be the correct solution, but maybe dynamically scaling raids between normal and mythic may be a workable solution. We will see what Blizzard takes from SL-S4.

[Nymrohd]

Adding just another difficulty would just fracture the raiding population even more, especially for a difficulty that requires a schedule. While I applaud smaller group sizes in endgame content - and I'd argue 10, while better, is still too large to an improvement for the average joe - at the end of the day it would be better to seek out alternative means of adjusting group sizes and difficulties if possible. I don't believe affix raiding next season is going to be the correct solution, but maybe dynamically scaling raids between normal and mythic may be a workable solution. We will see what Blizzard takes from SL-S4.

This is not intended for the average Joe though, this is very much intended for people who are clearing Heroic early but don't have the people to transition to Mythic, used to raid Mythic but belong in groups that lost too many players or even play Mythic already and cannot progress far enough cause half their group is solid players, just not good enough for Mythic progression.
And one thing we need to take into account is cross faction. Obviously we won't get a full picture yet; S4 is not particularly exciting so by itself it might not bring a lot of people into the game. But come Dragonflight and especially if cross faction guilds (or some other solution) become available, I'd expect to see a much healthier raid and dungeon scene on both sides (it's already healthy on Horde) that could easily handle an extra mode.

I am not sure about Raid+. Have considered it as well but how is it really different from having multiple difficulties?

[Twdft]

CE is 100% puggable it just takes a little longer.

First three months of Sepulcher = 146 guilds 11/11 so far. People are pretty much maxed out on ilvl from M+, there have to be some brutal nerfs to the raid to make it "puggable".

On topic: idea in the right direction, there are a lot of heroic guilds a couple players shy of a stable 20 mythic roster that could field a roster for harder 10 content. However I don't think another fixed player number raid is the answer. I'd say make 20 mythic even harder and add a flex 10-30 difficulty with mythic tuning as it is now.

[Cosmic Janitor]

This is not intended for the average Joe though, this is very much intended for people who are clearing Heroic early but don't have the people to transition to Mythic, used to raid Mythic but belong in groups that lost too many players or even play Mythic already and cannot progress far enough cause half their group is solid players, just not good enough for Mythic progression.
And one thing we need to take into account is cross faction. Obviously we won't get a full picture yet; S4 is not particularly exciting so by itself it might not bring a lot of people into the game. But come Dragonflight and especially if cross faction guilds (or some other solution) become available, I'd expect to see a much healthier raid and dungeon scene on both sides (it's already healthy on Horde) that could easily handle an extra mode.

I am not sure about Raid+. Have considered it as well but how is it really different from having multiple difficulties?

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure there are enough early heroic 10 man clear guilds to warrant this specifically. If anything I think the sensible target audience should be the heroic flex guilds that will clear heroic after 2-4 months and then have nothing left to do, since they can't change their roster to 20 man; especially now that season will probably take regularily more than 5 months because Blizzard is cheaping out on us big time. In that case imho it would make more sense to just offer a wild west mythic flex difficulty. That way they could also keep the mythic one a bit harder instead of nerfing it into willy-nilly after the race. Actually, imho they could just turn mythic into flex after the wankfest race to world first is over with balance being based on 20-man and only that awarding the achievment, while the rest can use more or less people. I do realize though that scaling usually favors larger groups for a while now, so it would still probably favor larger groups too much, although that is just another effort problem on Blizzard's part.

[Nymrohd]

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure there are enough early heroic 10 man clear guilds to warrant this specifically. If anything I think the sensible target audience should be the heroic flex guilds that will clear heroic after 2-4 months and then have nothing left to do, since they can't change their roster to 20 man; especially now that season will probably take regularily more than 5 months because Blizzard is cheaping out on us big time. In that case imho it would make more sense to just offer a wild west mythic flex difficulty. That way they could also keep the mythic one a bit harder instead of nerfing it into willy-nilly after the race. Actually, imho they could just turn mythic into flex after the wankfest race to world first is over with balance being based on 20-man and only that awarding the achievment, while the rest can use more or less people. I do realize though that scaling usually favors larger groups for a while now, so it would still probably favor larger groups too much, although that is just another effort problem on Blizzard's part.

I think it would be an interesting choice. Like, once Hall of Fame closes, make Mythic flex.

[Relapses]

Jesus man, you just can't let this 10M thing go, can you?

Stop trying to make it happen. It's not going to happen.

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On topic: idea in the right direction, there are a lot of heroic guilds a couple players shy of a stable 20 mythic roster that could field a roster for harder 10 content. However I don't think another fixed player number raid is the answer. I'd say make 20 mythic even harder and add a flex 10-30 difficulty with mythic tuning as it is now.

Mythic Flex would be the worst thing to ever happen to this game. Please do not ask for this.

[FiveBy21]

No way, there are too many difficulties as is.

[Celement]

Only way ten man can happen is if they make a instance specifically designed for 10 people. You can't just constantly scale things up and down it falls apart at certain points.