STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Lex Icon]

That makes literally no sense when LFR has not existed for the majority of WoW's lifetime.
And not having LFR drop tier does not mean people don't have a reason to do LFR. They were doing LFR just fine in 9.0 and 9.1. What's changed that they suddenly would not do LFR without tier drops?

there's no reason for most lfr participants to do it if it's too difficult for them and if the rewards aren't attractive enough. same reason you wouldn't do any difficulty higher than that if there was no gear upgrades for you. people don't do that shit for the challenge alone.

the typical lfr crowd don't care about challenge. they're there for story and loot and that's it. and story isn't good enough for people coming back so that leaves them with loot.

also i'm pretty sure lfr has existed for at least half of WoW's lifetime.

[jeezusisacasual]

That makes literally no sense when LFR has not existed for the majority of WoW's lifetime.
And not having LFR drop tier does not mean people don't have a reason to do LFR. They were doing LFR just fine in 9.0 and 9.1. What's changed that they suddenly would not do LFR without tier drops?

To be fair LFR released on 4.3 which launched November 29th, 2011. LFR has been in the game for more then half the games lifetime. Raiding has become far to much of a hassle to even bother with it. Specific add-ons, specific times, specific specs / covenants etc which in turn makes others not really give a damn about it. Compared to the other big game in the same space which allows you to be within spitting distance to the more hardcore raiders after a period of time and does that diminish those peoples rewards? and if so why are they still doing it? Also understand the delta between the best players and the lower end of average and then you will see why guilds die over time since again people will just stop.

[VMSmith]

If you're doing LFR and nothing harder you don't need tier pieces.

...

Nobody is forcing LFR players to do harder content, but people who do harder content are forced to do LFR

...

But if it were up to me LFR as a difficulty wouldn't exist at all

Cognitive Dissonance for the win!

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That makes literally no sense when LFR has not existed for the majority of WoW's lifetime.

WoW launch: November 23, 2004

LFR launch: November 29, 2011

Approximately 7 years without LFR.

Today: May 21, 2022

Approximately 10.5 years with LFR.

[Skildar]

Absolutely not lmao. Not even remotely close.
20 is closer to heroic raiding.

Using "on par" with my comment was bad, what I meant is that a heroic raider is able to accomplish a mythic + 15 with minimal information about the dungeon.

You're for sure way closer to the truth by saying 20 than me saying 15. But it requires quite the time investment to get to know all the subtleties and intricacies of each dungeons, so it's hard to say honestly.

[KrayZ33]

WoW launch: November 23, 2004

LFR launch: November 29, 2011

Approximately 7 years without LFR.

Today: May 21, 2022

Approximately 10.5 years with LFR.

It's not just that, but whenever someone brings up something about "this hasn't been in the game for 4 expansions" or whatever, in relation to wow, it really means nothing.

I looked up my old's guild recruit posts from BC/WotlK, we had 5 raid days and 1 optional raid day for twinks. Like wtf.
Not a single player out of those would still do this today. So whatever was or wasn't 10-15 years ago, doesn't matter because we are playing WoW now and today and I really doubt WoW is attracting more and more players from the younger generation.

[conkrete]

LFR or Normal, one has to go. Heroic should have Mythic gear and there shouldn't be a huge disparity in outcomes (10% max difference in terms of DPS/HPS etc..) in relation to Normal gear. Mythic should drop no gear, that should be competitive only. Every relevant competitive sports derives from the pre-existing condition that all have a shot at winning. Rewards should be: titles, mounts and real money for the top 20 for example.

[Echo of Soul]

LFR or Normal, one has to go. Heroic should have Mythic gear and there shouldn't be a huge disparity in outcomes (10% max difference in terms of DPS/HPS etc..) in relation to Normal gear. Mythic should drop no gear, that should be competitive only. Every relevant competitive sports derives from the pre-existing condition that all have a shot at winning. Rewards should be: titles, mounts and real money for the top 20 for example.

You make a good point. Playing in the Stanley Cup finals doesn't earn you skates that makes to skate faster and longer or sticks that makes you shoot harder and more accurate, you've already gotten to the level where your equipment is already the best. What's left is the prestige, the trophy and the glory. It doesn't make you play better the next season but it feels good.

[Twdft]

I'll never understand how people actually argue for removing item rewards from mythic raids. Like wtf dude? WoW is a game where the basic gameplay loop since the beginning of time, for level 1 to max, for the smallest activity is: do the thing, get a reward.

[VMSmith]

I'll never understand how people actually argue for removing item rewards from mythic raids. Like wtf dude? WoW is a game where the basic gameplay loop since the beginning of time, for level 1 to max, for the smallest activity is: do the thing, get a reward.

And yet, so many supposed Mythic raiders argue for the removal of rewards from LFR, or even the removal of LFR outright (I just quoted one a few posts back). In fact, most calls for the removal of rewards from Mythic are responses to such requests to remove rewards from non-organized content, to highlight how unfair that would be if the tables were turned.

Many non-organized players want better reward schemes for their efforts. Many organized players want those reward schemes nerfed either to prevent themselves from feeling compelled to partake of them or possibly out of simple spite for people they consider "lesser" than themselves.

[scubi666stacy]

Then you're not a casual - like at all. Really, the median bar in WoW is really lower than someone here can imagine. The fact you got bored of the game and didn't have fun anymore doesn't make you more casual or anything - just the fact you inform yourself before playing makes you more than a casual.

If a casual player gets bored of a game, it's highly unlikely he will ever return. Because for the most part it doesn't have much attachment to the game.

I inform myself about any game I intent to play. This is the new reality of gaming to me, for quite a while. I don't want to waste time on figuring out the best builds for a class, I want to know which will perform decently enought and which fit to my style of playing. I played many MMO-RPGs in the past 20+ years. What I stopped to do is organised content. If I cannot PUG it, I will not play it. I cannot let a game control the schedule of my week. I have a RL, family, job, friends and other hobbies.

Sorry, this is very much casual. Since BfA, WoW gave me less and less fun per time spent in the game with every content patch. And it kept on loading my gaming time with daily or weekly chores, with more and more repetitive things to complete on alts, choking me with timegating. I don't ask for mythic or heroic gear, as long as I can get gear which allows me to perform well in the open world and in some m+ dungeons. I want to get this gear in a reasonable timeframe, so I can go play other characters. That's it.

[potis]

Many non-organized players want better reward schemes for their efforts. Many organized players want those reward schemes nerfed either to prevent themselves from feeling compelled to partake of them or possibly out of simple spite for people they consider "lesser" than themselves.

Translation: Many non-organized players are special entitled snowflakes and want the maximum reward without doing anything, while this never existed in the game ever, they somehow are trying to convince the more dedicated experienced players that are still here, that this was the case, despite we all know it never was.

Mythic raiders dont care about LFR, dont confuse the random "Mythic raidur" that went 3/10 bosses once in his life because he got carried in a 4 day/week guild with 10 nerfs and a 30% damage increase by changes, 6 months after the content was relevant.

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I inform myself about any game I intent to play. This is the new reality of gaming to me, for quite a while. I don't want to waste time on figuring out the best builds for a class, I want to know which will perform decently enought and which fit to my style of playing. I played many MMO-RPGs in the past 20+ years. What I stopped to do is organised content. If I cannot PUG it, I will not play it. I cannot let a game control the schedule of my week. I have a RL, family, job, friends and other hobbies.

Sorry, this is very much casual. Since BfA, WoW gave me less and less fun per time spent in the game with every content patch. And it kept on loading my gaming time with daily or weekly chores, with more and more repetitive things to complete on alts, choking me with timegating. I don't ask for mythic or heroic gear, as long as I can get gear which allows me to perform well in the open world and in some m+ dungeons. I want to get this gear in a reasonable timeframe, so I can go play other characters. That's it.

You are confusing your life changes with the games fault, while also self-proclaiming yourself as casual.

There is nothing casual in your mentality towards the game, your life changed and you no longer have the time, doesnt mean the game changed as much as you think.

If you have connections, the game doesnt require much time to accomplish things, people seem to forget this and keep spamming about it.

If you completely abandon those connections and they also stopped the game, or simply dont have the time for you anymore, then simply become a true casual, play the story when you can, or dont play at all, but thats the thing, from your posts its obvious you arent a casual.

[Echo of Soul]

Mythic raiders dont care about LFR, dont confuse the random "Mythic raidur" that went 3/10 bosses once in his life because he got carried in a 4 day/week guild with 10 nerfs and a 30% damage increase by changes, 6 months after the content was relevant.

Speak for yourself. I always clear mythic with my guild, not top 100 or anything like that but we clear it and I firmly believe that if you don't do premade group content you've forfeited your right to rewards.

[La]

And yet, so many supposed Mythic raiders argue for the removal of rewards from LFR, or even the removal of LFR outright (I just quoted one a few posts back). In fact, most calls for the removal of rewards from Mythic are responses to such requests to remove rewards from non-organized content, to highlight how unfair that would be if the tables were turned.

Many non-organized players want better reward schemes for their efforts. Many organized players want those reward schemes nerfed either to prevent themselves from feeling compelled to partake of them or possibly out of simple spite for people they consider "lesser" than themselves.

No one who Mythic raids could care about LFR. If they're going to argue against anything it would be against M+ and the rewards in comparison for the time and effort required. The problem is people will never be satisfied with "better rewards" They want as close to the best as they can get, and tossing out some of the best quality gear that takes a lot of time and effort to get isn't something you should just give people, especially when Normal/Heroic raids exist. Expecting to walk into LFR and get rewarded well is ridiculous in general, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be options as a whole, but some people want free, really good gear for next to zero effort in comparison to other gearing options.

Personally I think there are too many sources for too many types of gear.

[potis]

Speak for yourself. I always clear mythic with my guild, not too 100 or anything like that but we clear it and I firmly believe that if you do premade group content you've forfeited your right to rewards.

Yeah but you are one irrelevant voice that doesnt represent everyone, you arent any different than them, special snowflake syndrome exists in all skill levels of WoW.

Also your sentence makes no sense.

"if you do premade group content you've forfeited your right to rewards", a not is missing or what?

[VMSmith]

No one who Mythic raids could care about LFR.

...

Expecting to walk into LFR and get rewarded well is ridiculous in general

You folk make it too easy to laugh at you You couldn't even make it a whole paragraph before your true nature took over.

[Nite92]

Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in? The “average” are the soul of the community, this game is becoming depressing.

I remember the time in which the most amount of people were actually enjoying the game, and the community was thriving, the content was extremely easy with the exception of four bosses (Mimiron, Anub, Yogg-3/0 and LK heroic) during WotLK. When Wrath was released the hardest boss was Sartharion +3 Drakes, any decently organized group could kill it, I know we did it.

I remember really good top 1000 guilds wiping on heroic in 9.0, even after trying Beta on supposedly easy bosses on heroic. Is this the game that you REALLY want? A month after the Jailer was killed, 17 guilds have killed it. What psychos do we have working at Blizzard at the moment?

People take satisfaction in knowing that they’ve “beaten” the game by defeating the hardest encounters. That’s not even a dream to most players. Make the highest gear attainable by all within three weeks of release of patch; The top players already have the titles, mounts, achievements and glory. Stop licking their boots so hard. Game is in a terrible state. I remember Sunwell Plateau was the most brutal raid at the time, even the trash was a nightmare. They nerfed everything by 30% (don’t recall exactly) allowing most people to do it WELL ahead of Wrath. That should happen three weeks after the first kill across ALL difficulties. And just tune down bosses… What is this? I’m typing this as I leave of a heroic diefest on Anduin, and people weren’t awful.

I’m glad that popular youtubers including Asmongold are starting to point this out. You’ve made the game for 200 people, congratulations.

If you really think, that this game is made for the 200 best players, you are either delusional or not playing the game.
They overturned the raids yes, but that was corrected, and with people getting 4p and double legendary, the heroic and nh was not hard anymore. I don't understand the problem, with a heroic guild needing a few weeks to clear the heroic raid. If it is too hard for you week 1/2/3, just do normal and slowly start heroic as your gear improves.

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And yet, so many supposed Mythic raiders argue for the removal of rewards from LFR, or even the removal of LFR outright (I just quoted one a few posts back). In fact, most calls for the removal of rewards from Mythic are responses to such requests to remove rewards from non-organized content, to highlight how unfair that would be if the tables were turned.

Many non-organized players want better reward schemes for their efforts. Many organized players want those reward schemes nerfed either to prevent themselves from feeling compelled to partake of them or possibly out of simple spite for people they consider "lesser" than themselves.

From my PoV, i don't see many mythic raiders caring about LFR.

People are just different nowadays. Do you really believe casual players would like TBC-esque crafted gear (which cost multiple 100k in todays economy) or TBC/wrath reputation gear? It would just be hated for being "timegated" or "too expensive" for the casual player. Maybe some badge/valor gear would be neat, but that would "force" people to engage in the lfg system, and from what I have read here, people hate this as well.

[Jinpachi]

Its been 1149 posts since mine and the thread took its course so I don't see why you had to tell me that we will discuss here, when we already discuss here.

I didn't have to. Just like you didn't have to post your original response. But here we are.

[VMSmith]

I have unironically gotten 3/4 tier pieces this week in lfr just auto attacking and watching netflix on my phone - let's not pretend LFR is anything more than free loot, which wouldn't even be worth getting without tier sets being added back

What does you being a lazy jerk have to do with other people enjoying LFR and wanting to progress by using it?

I don't even mind you having fun this way if that's what floats your boat, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg for you to get easy tier via LFR while barely participating. I'd be even happier if you could eventually get the best gear in the game via LFR if that's what you really want to do, or any other activity of your choosing that brings you enjoyment. And I don't care how much "effort" you put forth or any of that nonsense. I'm not a busybody all up in everyone else's business making sure they've "earned" what they get. Just have fun and enjoy life.

[Coldkil]

I inform myself about any game I intent to play. This is the new reality of gaming to me, for quite a while. I don't want to waste time on figuring out the best builds for a class, I want to know which will perform decently enought and which fit to my style of playing. I played many MMO-RPGs in the past 20+ years. What I stopped to do is organised content. If I cannot PUG it, I will not play it. I cannot let a game control the schedule of my week. I have a RL, family, job, friends and other hobbies.

Sorry, this is very much casual. Since BfA, WoW gave me less and less fun per time spent in the game with every content patch. And it kept on loading my gaming time with daily or weekly chores, with more and more repetitive things to complete on alts, choking me with timegating. I don't ask for mythic or heroic gear, as long as I can get gear which allows me to perform well in the open world and in some m+ dungeons. I want to get this gear in a reasonable timeframe, so I can go play other characters. That's it.

Then, you're not a casual - you just don't play a lot. The fact you take any game and inform yourself before playing makes you not a casual - not an hardcore player either, but it's not a binary definition. Casual and Hardcore are the extremes of a spectrum.

Point is, the game has a lot of hurdles before you can reach something like you do. Most people don't care about "informing themselves" they just want to log in and play (literally). There's a reason why game like Fortnite and Minecraft and Rocket League are very popular - you just log in and play and people like that.

Not saying an MMO like WoW has to be like that. There's always going to be some degree of preparation required and there's a reaosn why M+ are so granular in difficulty - they can appeal much more players this way. Raiding is much harder from this standpoint because you need a prepared group of people and consumables etc so less people do that (also because gear progression is shit there).

I think they're doing a good job with DF. They removed all the "middle-man" systems between leveling and dungeon/raids. They need to add more open world stuff with a reliable and relevant progression and they're literally done. WoW was always good at its core and still is, it went downhill when they tried to change its core gameplay loop by adding useless fluff.

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If you really think, that this game is made for the 200 best players, you are either delusional or not playing the game.
They overturned the raids yes, but that was corrected, and with people getting 4p and double legendary, the heroic and nh was not hard anymore. I don't understand the problem, with a heroic guild needing a few weeks to clear the heroic raid. If it is too hard for you week 1/2/3, just do normal and slowly start heroic as your gear improves.

To me it wasn't neither too hard or overtuned. It's just overcomplicated. Mostly because people have nowadays so many addons doing the job for them (and still failing at mechanics) they resorted to gimmick mechanics and complcated stuff, while the game itself isn't really good at providing informations.

They really just need to take a step back and work on how the information is provided during a fight. The better they do, the less addons are useful (because they're not bad per se).

Just look at a game like Dark Souls. It's not mechanically complicated, but it's hard. You fail because you need to learn how a boss moves, reaction times are short and you cannot bash random button.

WoW is not hard, but mechanically complicated. You have to follow a rotation (not even perfectly ad dps checks are not that strict in most cases) and react to predetermined scripts. You fail because you have no reliable info about what happens when, or because someone else in your group does the movement wrong or because multiple mechanics overlap for no reason.

I think a middle ground between the two would be good. Not many things to do, but you have to do them well.

[potis]

I think a middle ground between the two would be good. Not many things to do, but you have to do them well.

But this got repetetive and boring, how many more times before Discipline Bubble and Spirit Link to counter the whole fight and easy loot?

I am not a fan of the new system myself, i have weaker players that cause wipes and require more tries to learn it and this shift of multiple personal mechanics that wipe the rest is starting to tire me a lot, but i understand the shift as a player from the developers, its the same game for 18 years, new things must be created.