What do you think the future of the Forsaken will be under Calia Menethil? [Spoilers]

[Mehrunes]

Genn and Rogers attacked in accordance with the letter but not the spirit of Anduin's orders. They were authorized to engage the Horde forces if it was deemed necessary. Even in Anduin's inner monologue, his thoughts regarded their action as "taking a recent assignment much further than he had ordered." Not disobeying orders. And even then, their actions were still motivated by Alliance interests. It would be hard to convict them of treason for their actions, and they were rebuked for what they did.

If they went beyond the scope of the orders, that by default means they violated them. They kinda wouldn't have been rebuked otherwise. And they didn't attack in accordance with the letter of his order for squat if they made the decision to attack the Horde before they even left Stormwind and got an opportunity to properly determine if the situation demanded it. Also, since when are their personal vendettas against the Horde (with Rogers revealing hers in that very questline) "Alliance interests"?

As for Jaina's purge, that was conducted independently of the Alliance leadership. She was acting as a member of the Kirin Tor against other members of the Kirin Tor, so other than having Alliance fighters supporting her, it's not really a decision by Alliance leadership. She even blatantly went against Varian's orders earlier in the questline when he asked her to evict the Sunreavers from Dalaran because of their Horde ties. While obviously Jaina and the Silver Covenant have Alliance ties and the Sunreavers have Horde ties, the actual matter was a Dalaran internal affair with external support on both sides.

The Stormwind forces that aided her in the Purge didn't send themselves and even if Varian didn't personally give the order he's still responsible for Stormwind's participation in the matter.

It's hard for Hordies to understand the idea of anything besides an absolute dictator who rules by whims, so they can't quite grasp how an alliance does not grant Anduin sovereignty over member states. Add in a healthy dose of "does enjoying the evil faction make me a bad person?" and they have to frantically scrabble at straws trying to find some way for Alliance to be just as bad.

And I guess it's hard for you to understand the idea that member states and individuals from those member states are not the same. Ditto for the sovereignty over member states (or the lack thereof) vs authority over troops committed under the High King's command. As per usual your shit-slinging attempt at a gotcha only ended up with you shooting yourself in the foot. Over the very same topic you tried to lecture @Magical Mudcrab earlier on in the thread no less.

[Feanoro]

I shouldn't read threads without being logged in. Since I did, I'll simply coin a reply anyone is free (and encouraged) to use:

OK, Mehrunes.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Metzen confirmed they are the same years ago. Also, why would the Forsaken inherit the acts of a Lordaeronians that remained non-undead even after the arrival of the Scourge like Garithos? Especially when they are the ones that killed him?

Do you know specifically what Metzen said? I think would be fair to consider it a spiritual continuation or an iteration on the Alliance of Lordaeron, but it seems awkward to treat them as the same thing given the Alliance had all but collapsed at this point. In the time of Classic, the only 1 of the original 7 human states remained in the Alliance, and only the Dwarves and Gnomes of Khaz Modan and Aerie Peak remained from the non-human nations. Moreover, none of the remaining states even participated in the Tyr's Hand massacre, and the racism which Garithos presented seemed to be exceptional (i.e.: why would the Dwarves and Gnomes have widespread cooperation with the Alliance if human-supremacist beliefs or outright mistrust of non-human races was also widespread).

Regarding why the Forsaken would inherit the acts mentioned, it's because they're the Lordaeronians. I don't think they should have all the acts of Lordaeron attributed to them, but if anyone is going to have the acts attributed to them then it makes more sense to attribute it to the people of the former state.

Varian was kidnapped years after the initial brutalization of the Stonemasons. And he was the one who cracked down on them so hard they were forced to flee to the countryside and form the Defias Brotherhood.

I thought that Varian's only actions were against the initial rioting, the same rioting which led to Tiffin being killed, and that it was Onyxia manipulating the nobles and ruling class that led to the Stonemasons not receiving payment.

You left out the part where Hawthorne was an incompetent idiot that couldn't do any intel gathering about the geopolitics of the region and he funneled those Tauren to the territory of Quillboars that hated them and, consequently, slaughtered them while they were fleeing from Taurajo. Also, Baine is such an Alliance asset the game eventually gave him an Alliance tag at the end of the last war and he'd excuse his human masters even if they impaled every orphan in Orgrimmar in front of him.

That's a fair characterization, and I think there's a lot that should have been done to mitigate the events. That said, even though the consequences were disastrous, there's a distinction between incompetence and cruelty.

The Blood Elves join the Horde only after the events of the Ghostline questline. Also, the Alliance outright invaded and occupied several areas of Thalassian territory and their sabotage was actually the least offending part of the whole thing.

Hm, I had thought they had already joined the Horde at that point. Given they were a neutral party, I would say it would make the acts by Prospector Anvilward significantly worse, as it's no longer undermining the Horde but instead undermining any current or future diplomacy with the Blood Elves.

The one that "abused Dalaran" there was Jaina. She aided the Night Elves first, by personally capturing, wounding or killing Horde soldiers with her traps (unknown what they specifically did), even though by her own standards in Tides of War asking the Kirin Tor to aid Theramore was tantamount to asking them to break their neutrality, even though all they did was ward it with magic and did not directly take part in hostilities. She turned Dalaran into Alliance's co-belligerent and a valid target of war.

I don't think there was an explicit rule that disallowed individual members from acting with the Alliance or Horde. Keep in mind that people like Aethas Sunreaver, who was explicitly a member of the Horde, was on the Council of Six at this time. The reason for the retaliation was two fold:
1) The individual abused Dalaran's portal networks to bypass the warding Jaina put in place for the Divine Bell (i.e.: only a member of the Kirin Tor with an understanding of Dalaran's portal networks could have bypassed the wards).
2) The magical artifact was given to Garrosh, someone who has a history of abusing magical weapons to indiscriminately kill people.

Then there's the part where she had no authority whatsoever to perform the Purge by herself anyway, as Dalaran is ruled by the Council of Six and not just its leader. With the leader having no additional powers compared to the rest of the Council (not even a tie-breaker vote) and only acting as a representation to outside parties. Which is why the only actual Kirin Tor member who engaged in the Purge was Jaina and the rest of the forces were Stormwind soldiers (further showing that Jaina already cooperated with the Alliance) and Vereesa's private militia that has no official legal standing in Dalaran.

I don't actually know if the Council of Six would have disagreed with the Purge. At the time of Legion, the current members of the council only agreed to allow the Horde to enter the city and use it as a mutual staging ground in a 4-2 vote, and this was in the face of the Burning Legion. At the time of MoP, at least two members of the Council of Six were explicitly against the Horde (Jaina Proudmoore and Ansirem Runeweaver), and while Archmage Modera is not explicitly against the Horde, she would go on to actively participate in the Kirin Tor Offensive. That said, around this time the Council of Six rejected Jaina's suggestion to destroy Orgrimmar, though I don't know if the same logic (i.e.: too many innocents and children would get caught up in the attack) would be used for the Sunreavers.

But all Horde was doing at the time was dig in Silithus. There was nothing to counter yet. And the fact that the Alliance attacked there before the the invasion of Ashenvale makes the idea that the Horde started the war suspect. I know that technically it's said in one quest at the end of the war, but Blizzard has a penchant for writing the Alliance engage in acts of war against the Horde and then brushing it under the carpet. Case in point Before the Storm, which reiterated multiple times that the factions needed a ceasefire even for something as benign as the Gathering (i.e. 1. a peaceful meeting of 2. civilians on 3. neutral ground) to happen. With the author also then going out of her way to cover who broke said ceasefire first when shit hit the fan. And the requirement of a ceasefire indicates the existence of an already ongoing open conflict (i.e. the metaphorical "fire") that needed to be temporarily ceased.

To clarify, by "countering" I wasn't meaning "counter-operation", I meant as an equally "evil" or "unjustified" counterpoint to some actions we've seen the Horde take. That's why I mentioned the Alliance sinking the Goblin ships as a better alternatives to what was done in Silithus, as it is an unambiguously evil action taken.

[Utrrabbit]

Every person who voted no is an emo kid who has no idea what good storytelling or character growth is.

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I am not a fan of Calia Menethil at all. Sylvanus was wayyy better

Sylvanus was a terrible character. Even during vanilla and the following xpacs. She was forgettable. I honestly 100% forgot she even existed until bfa.

[cocomen2]

We don't even sure if its "Calia" inside of Calia body, after she was ressurected only Light knows what took a hold of that body, after Shadowlands ... its seems clear that light has no special interactions with souls. /s

[Aresk]

If they went beyond the scope of the orders, that by default means they violated them. They kinda wouldn't have been rebuked otherwise. And they didn't attack in accordance with the letter of his order for squat if they made the decision to attack the Horde before they even left Stormwind and got an opportunity to properly determine if the situation demanded it. Also, since when are their personal vendettas against the Horde (with Rogers revealing hers in that very questline) "Alliance interests"?

There's a difference between violating something and going beyond the scope of something. Anduin gave them permission to attack the Horde if they deemed it necessary. They deemed it necessary. The fact that they deemed it necessary in Stormwind Harbor rather than Stormheim speaks to premeditation but not a violation of the letter of the order. You can rebuke someone for following the letter of the rule instead of the spirit for the rule; it happens all the time. And attacking Horde forces is as valid for Alliance interests as attacking Alliance forces is for Horde. Eliminating a major superpower that has been one of the largest sources of aggression against the Alliance is as legitimate for Alliance security as the reason that Sylvanas gives Saurfang for starting the War of Thorns, particularly since Horde were the instigators in Gilneas and completely eradicated Hillsbrad. Regardless, you'd be hard pressed to identify their actions as treason, but you're free to make that argument.

The Stormwind forces that aided her in the Purge didn't send themselves and even if Varian didn't personally give the order he's still responsible for Stormwind's participation in the matter.

I don't deny that the Alliance is a participating group in the Purge of Dalaran, but it's still an external resource assisting an allied government with an internal affair after being invited. Likewise, I wouldn't classify the Horde's participating in the Purging to be an invasion force because they were similarly invited. While the conflict then continued on into the Isle of Thunder and became an Alliance vs Horde affair with Dalaran's rejoining the Alliance, at the time of the Purge, it was still an internal Dalaran affair with both Horde and Alliance supporting the civil conflict.

[Mehrunes]

There's a difference between violating something and going beyond the scope of something. Anduin gave them permission to attack the Horde if they deemed it necessary. They deemed it necessary. The fact that they deemed it necessary in Stormwind Harbor rather than Stormheim speaks to premeditation but not a violation of the letter of the order. You can rebuke someone for following the letter of the rule instead of the spirit for the rule; it happens all the time. And attacking Horde forces is as valid for Alliance interests as attacking Alliance forces is for Horde. Eliminating a major superpower that has been one of the largest sources of aggression against the Alliance is as legitimate for Alliance security as the reason that Sylvanas gives Saurfang for starting the War of Thorns, particularly since Horde were the instigators in Gilneas and completely eradicated Hillsbrad. Regardless, you'd be hard pressed to identify their actions as treason, but you're free to make that argument.

The military isn't a choose-your-own-adventure LARP session. You operate within the scope of your orders and nothing else. So no, there is no difference between going beyond one's orders and violating them in this context.

And you're mischaracterizing Anduin's orders. He didn't say they can attack if they deem it necessary. He said they can attack if the "situation demands". And there's a clear difference between these phrasings. The first would leave the decision-making entirely up to Genn and Rogers, while the second one does not. Obviously the decision at the time would still be up to them, but the possibility for attack was conditional and based on factual circumstances, and the whole thing would be subject to possibility of a review by their superiors.

And since they made the decision to attack before they even left Stormwind, they made it before they were even faced with any situation, let alone one that demanded it, meaning that the conditions they were given had not been met, which already shows they clearly violated Anduin's orders. And since the Horde was doing jack shit at the time of the attack and wasn't even aware of the Alliance trailing them, the situation they were faced with on the end didn't demand an attack either, making the fact they violated Anduin's orders all the more apparent.

Also, there are clear differences between the preparations for War of Thorns and the attack in Stormheim. For one, the factions were already in open conflict prior to War of Thorns, vide Before the Storm. Meanwhile they were cooperating at the start of Legion, only for Genn to fuck it up so hard that the Horde and the Alliance couldn't effectively lead the charge against the latest threat at the moment as they usually did, which is why we needed Class Orders to pick up the slack. Secondly, the factions were already busy with the invasion of WoW's Satan at the time and starting a different conflict (with your would-be ally no less) during an ongoing apocalypse is pretty much the antithesis of furthering the Alliance's interests.

Then there's the results perspective, by which Genn furthered one of the last Alliance gunships to a grave instead of any Alliance interests, while the War of Thorns achieved in an afternoon what Garrosh failed to do in three years despite Ashenvale being one of his primary targets.

I shouldn't read threads without being logged in. Since I did, I'll simply coin a reply anyone is free (and encouraged) to use:

OK, Mehrunes.

If this wasn't just a sad meme reply where you're paraphrasing "OK, boomer" like you're keen on doing recently, this would actually be the least weak argument you've managed to make in your 11+ years of misusing a lore forum to peddle fanfiction. That's almost progress.

[Aresk]

The military isn't a choose-your-own-adventure LARP session. You operate within the scope of your orders and nothing else. So no, there is no difference between going beyond one's orders and violating them in this context.

And you're mischaracterizing Anduin's orders. He didn't say they can attack if they deem it necessary. He said they can attack if the "situation demands". And there's a clear difference between these phrasings. The first would leave the decision-making entirely up to Genn and Rogers, while the second one does not. Obviously the decision at the time would still be up to them, but the possibility for attack was conditional and based on factual circumstances, and the whole thing would be subject to possibility of a review by their superiors.

And since they made the decision to attack before they even left Stormwind, they made it before they were even faced with any situation, let alone one that demanded it, meaning that the conditions they were given had not been met, which already shows they clearly violated Anduin's orders. And since the Horde was doing jack shit at the time of the attack and wasn't even aware of the Alliance trailing them, the situation they were faced with on the end didn't demand an attack either, making the fact they violated Anduin's orders all the more apparent.

Also, there are clear differences between the preparations for War of Thorns and the attack in Stormheim. For one, the factions were already in open conflict prior to War of Thorns, vide Before the Storm. Meanwhile they were cooperating at the start of Legion, only for Genn to fuck it up so hard that the Horde and the Alliance couldn't effectively lead the charge against the latest threat at the moment as they usually did, which is why we needed Class Orders to pick up the slack. Secondly, the factions were already busy with the invasion of WoW's Satan at the time and starting a different conflict (with your would-be ally no less) during an ongoing apocalypse is pretty much the antithesis of furthering the Alliance's interests.

Then there's the results perspective, by which Genn furthered one of the last Alliance gunships to a grave instead of any Alliance interests, while the War of Thorns achieved in an afternoon what Garrosh failed to do in three years despite Ashenvale being one of his primary targets.

And none of that was an attempt to kill Anduin or overthrow his government. Even if everything you said was pertinent to the discussion, none of it points to treason.

As for Alliance interests, I am speaking specifically from Genn and Rogers' point of view. To them, the Horde was no ally. They hung the Alliance out to dry on the Broken Shore. They led to Varian's death. And the army itself had already attacked settlements without provocation in the past (e.g. Gilneas) and waged devastating attacks against civilian centers (e.g. Hillsbrad). While there was a brief cessation of hostilities after MOP, there had been several conflicts in WoD. To Greymane and Rogers, their attack was dealing with a threat to the Alliance. Anduin wouldn't see it that way (hence the rebuke), and I suspect most players didn't see it that way, but that doesn't change the way that the two of them saw the act: the Horde is a threat to the Alliance, and taking an opportunity to weaken the Horde is advantageous to the Alliance.

Lastly, and we're really getting off-topic from the subject of treason here, the Horde and Alliance cooperating for one assault does not imply that they are not in conflict. There were no allusions from either side that the agreement of the Broken Shore persisted beyond that attack: Anduin had already given orders to deal with the Horde if the "situation demands" (thank you for correcting the wording on that; I had forgotten the precise instruction), and Sylvanas, even before she became Warchief, had already said that the Alliance would seek retribution for what transpired from the Broken Shore. Even if Stormheim canonically happens before the events of any of the Warden towers or the "mercy killings" of the crew of the Queen's Reprisal, pointing to the Broken Shore of evidence of some sort of persistent state of agreement is unfounded. The Order Halls were canonically established before Stormheim, indicating that, as you point out, the Horde and the Alliance had already fallen out of a position of cooperation.

[VladlTutushkin]

The military isn't a choose-your-own-adventure LARP session. You operate within the scope of your orders and nothing else. So no, there is no difference between going beyond one's orders and violating them in this context.

And you're mischaracterizing Anduin's orders. He didn't say they can attack if they deem it necessary. He said they can attack if the "situation demands". And there's a clear difference between these phrasings. The first would leave the decision-making entirely up to Genn and Rogers, while the second one does not. Obviously the decision at the time would still be up to them, but the possibility for attack was conditional and based on factual circumstances, and the whole thing would be subject to possibility of a review by their superiors.

And since they made the decision to attack before they even left Stormwind, they made it before they were even faced with any situation, let alone one that demanded it, meaning that the conditions they were given had not been met, which already shows they clearly violated Anduin's orders. And since the Horde was doing jack shit at the time of the attack and wasn't even aware of the Alliance trailing them, the situation they were faced with on the end didn't demand an attack either, making the fact they violated Anduin's orders all the more apparent.

Also, there are clear differences between the preparations for War of Thorns and the attack in Stormheim. For one, the factions were already in open conflict prior to War of Thorns, vide Before the Storm. Meanwhile they were cooperating at the start of Legion, only for Genn to fuck it up so hard that the Horde and the Alliance couldn't effectively lead the charge against the latest threat at the moment as they usually did, which is why we needed Class Orders to pick up the slack. Secondly, the factions were already busy with the invasion of WoW's Satan at the time and starting a different conflict (with your would-be ally no less) during an ongoing apocalypse is pretty much the antithesis of furthering the Alliance's interests.

Then there's the results perspective, by which Genn furthered one of the last Alliance gunships to a grave instead of any Alliance interests, while the War of Thorns achieved in an afternoon what Garrosh failed to do in three years despite Ashenvale being one of his primary targets.

"while the War of Thorns achieved in an afternoon what Garrosh failed to do in three years despite Ashenvale being one of his primary targets." whoops, there goes your "nobody liked War of Thorns and so Alliance players should just shut up about it".

Also, Anduin achieved in single war what Alliance never achieved before - toppled Horde entire structure and effectively decentralized them, which combined with their already tumultuous nature makes Horde even more disorganized and hard to manage and allows pro-Alliance leaders to actually legally oppose warmongering actions.

Oh and Calia Menethil achieved in a... few weeks to gain respect of the Forsaken. Such a political genius.

Mehrunes, when will you EVER learn not to flaunt bullshit writing that props you up, because by doing so you open the door for all bullshit writing that brings you down.

[Aedruid]

Every person who voted no is an emo kid who has no idea what good storytelling or character growth is.

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Sylvanus was a terrible character. Even during vanilla and the following xpacs. She was forgettable. I honestly 100% forgot she even existed until bfa.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I 100% disagree. All the characters in WoW were 100% forgettable up until the cinematics and crazy theatrics surrounding the wars and etc. Also, please tell me what constitutes "good storytelling" in a game, especially a game as old as WoW. Did you even read the quests? Most likely not; otherwise, you would be a fan of the story. Quests are the storytelling in WoW.

[Mehrunes]

And none of that was an attempt to kill Anduin or overthrow his government. Even if everything you said was pertinent to the discussion, none of it points to treason.

Since when do these two acts alone exhaust the scope of treason? Historically treason covered a wide array of acts, going as far as simply being a Catholic priest in certain periods of British history. Instigating conflict against another nation (one that was just allied no less) with no proper authorization could have very well fallen under that. Especially since it effectively aided a third party that the Alliance was actually at war with, vide the part about factions being unable to deal with the Legion. And aiding an enemy your nation is at war with remains a part of the legal definition of treason in many countries even to this day.

tAs for Alliance interests, I am speaking specifically from Genn and Rogers' point of view. To them, the Horde was no ally. They hung the Alliance out to dry on the Broken Shore. They led to Varian's death. And the army itself had already attacked settlements without provocation in the past (e.g. Gilneas) and waged devastating attacks against civilian centers (e.g. Hillsbrad). While there was a brief cessation of hostilities after MOP, there had been several conflicts in WoD. To Greymane and Rogers, their attack was dealing with a threat to the Alliance. Anduin wouldn't see it that way (hence the rebuke), and I suspect most players didn't see it that way, but that doesn't change the way that the two of them saw the act: the Horde is a threat to the Alliance, and taking an opportunity to weaken the Horde is advantageous to the Alliance.

You said their attack was motivated by Alliance's interests. Not their view on what that entails. And those are not synonyms in the slightest. Again, the very reason why we needed Class Orders to lead the charge against the Legion was the fact that the Alliance and the Horde were at each others' throats and couldn't do so as they would usually do. That's from Blizzard's own preview of Class Orders at Blizzcon. If the outbreak of the conflict was so dire that it prevented the factions from doing what they'd usually manage, that shows their capabilities were weakened as they were now stretched too thin in two different conflicts at once. That's, once again, the opposite of Alliance's interests. Unless you want to tell me that Alliance strives for being too weak to deal with an ongoing apocalypse, but I find that somewhat doubtful.

But let's look at this perspective of theirs anyway. The idea that the Horde hung the Alliance out to dry at Broken Shore, let alone led to Varian's death, is a pile of nonsense that doesn't hold up to any level of scrutiny. Even from their perspective. When the Alliance retreated from the Broken Shore they did so via gunship. Which provided them with the aerial view of the battlefield. Which, in turn, would have shown them unobstructed view of 1.the Legion spaceships that forced the Horde to retreat (you can still see them even from the Alliance's ground position, but only two), 2. the active Legion portals on Horde's side and 3. the swarm of demons that crawled out of these portals, completely overrunning the Horde position once the spaceships broke their ranks. And since Genn himself spent the flight looking towards the battleground and shouting at clouds, he personally had all of this information available to him from the get go unless he developed some kind of selective blindness. At least the likes of Anduin have an excuse of not being there themselves, Genn has none.

And there's absolutely no causal relation between Horde's retreat and Varian's death. Varian got killed by the Fel Reaver that wasn't even on Azeroth when the Horde left, the gunship arrived immediately afterwards and took care of anti-air and the demons from the Horde's side would need a hike around the entire island to get from there to the Alliance's position unless they wanted to jump off a cliff first. There is however a causal link between the Horde's retreat and non-Varian Alliance members surviving, because they only retreated because the Horde retreated first. If the Horde followed through with the only alternative they had of "dropping dead", the Alliance would have been obliterated as well. Especially since we learned five minutes after returning from Broken Shore that it was a trap (that the factions walked in thanks to Alliance's incompetence no less) and one that was literally unwinnable.

Lastly, and we're really getting off-topic from the subject of treason here, the Horde and Alliance cooperating for one assault does not imply that they are not in conflict. There were no allusions from either side that the agreement of the Broken Shore persisted beyond that attack: Anduin had already given orders to deal with the Horde if the "situation demands" (thank you for correcting the wording on that; I had forgotten the precise instruction), and Sylvanas, even before she became Warchief, had already said that the Alliance would seek retribution for what transpired from the Broken Shore. Even if Stormheim canonically happens before the events of any of the Warden towers or the "mercy killings" of the crew of the Queen's Reprisal, pointing to the Broken Shore of evidence of some sort of persistent state of agreement is unfounded. The Order Halls were canonically established before Stormheim, indicating that, as you point out, the Horde and the Alliance had already fallen out of a position of cooperation.

Anduin was unsure about what to do with the Horde because unlike Genn he wasn't there and didn't see a literal legion of evidence showing that the Horde had no other choice but to retreat. Had Genn not started an open conflict with the Horde there was still an opportunity for the brainlets in Alliance to realize that the Horde has no interest in letting the Legion to destroy the world they live on just to spite some human twerps and to talk it out instead. And the existence of an ongoing Legion invasion points out to how maintaining cooperation even after Broken Shore would have been desirable for both sides. As for the Class Orders, like I said they needed to lead the charge against the Legion because of the faction conflict. They weren't leading anything yet prior to Stormheim. Their first somewhat coordinated offensives take place only after you finish a zone.

"while the War of Thorns achieved in an afternoon what Garrosh failed to do in three years despite Ashenvale being one of his primary targets." whoops, there goes your "nobody liked War of Thorns and so Alliance players should just shut up about it".

Also, Anduin achieved in single war what Alliance never achieved before - toppled Horde entire structure and effectively decentralized them, which combined with their already tumultuous nature makes Horde even more disorganized and hard to manage and allows pro-Alliance leaders to actually legally oppose warmongering actions.

Oh and Calia Menethil achieved in a... few weeks to gain respect of the Forsaken. Such a political genius.

Mehrunes, when will you EVER learn not to flaunt bullshit writing that props you up, because by doing so you open the door for all bullshit writing that brings you down.

Where do you see "liking" in there? Is this another "usurper" kind of thing where the Venn diagram of the actual meaning of words and what you think they mean are two circles existing in completely separate universes?

[AcidicSyn]

I think Calia needs a few stories worth of character development before she takes on the mantle of racial leader for any main race. She's not forsaken and I don't see any signs that the existing (lorderonian) forsaken want to preserve the menethil line as rulers. She should be a figure front and center in their story right now, stupid to just fridge her at this point, but just lead the forsaken outright? I don't think that would make sense.

[Mehrunes]

Do you know specifically what Metzen said? I think would be fair to consider it a spiritual continuation or an iteration on the Alliance of Lordaeron, but it seems awkward to treat them as the same thing given the Alliance had all but collapsed at this point. In the time of Classic, the only 1 of the original 7 human states remained in the Alliance, and only the Dwarves and Gnomes of Khaz Modan and Aerie Peak remained from the non-human nations. Moreover, none of the remaining states even participated in the Tyr's Hand massacre, and the racism which Garithos presented seemed to be exceptional (i.e.: why would the Dwarves and Gnomes have widespread cooperation with the Alliance if human-supremacist beliefs or outright mistrust of non-human races was also widespread).

There were at least two occasions I can think of. One was him directly addressing the Alliance players (at a Blizzcon, I think) and saying "You're the Alliance of Lordaeron". The second one was a deleted tweet where he was, if memory serves me right, simply answering a question if they are the same. Besides, that's not the only source for these being the same. The manual of Vanilla WoW referred to the Alliance as the Grand Alliance even in context of events that took place during W2 and W3, showing that it's not a separate organization from the Alliance of Lordaeron. Or there's Wolfheart, in which it's repeatedly clarified (by both sides) that Gilneas would be re-admitted rather than just admitted to the Alliance.

That's a fair characterization, and I think there's a lot that should have been done to mitigate the events. That said, even though the consequences were disastrous, there's a distinction between incompetence and cruelty.

I know. But even if you knew they still died, your previous post didn't mention it and as such could lead some less aware posters to the wrong conclusions.

I don't think there was an explicit rule that disallowed individual members from acting with the Alliance or Horde. Keep in mind that people like Aethas Sunreaver, who was explicitly a member of the Horde, was on the Council of Six at this time. The reason for the retaliation was two fold:
1) The individual abused Dalaran's portal networks to bypass the warding Jaina put in place for the Divine Bell (i.e.: only a member of the Kirin Tor with an understanding of Dalaran's portal networks could have bypassed the wards).
2) The magical artifact was given to Garrosh, someone who has a history of abusing magical weapons to indiscriminately kill people.

The Bell was smuggled through Dalaran only after it was already stolen (and initially teleported to the outskirts of Darnassus). And the player teleports to those Darnassian outskirts at the start of the quest directly from the Horde camp in Krasarang, after which they simply walked into the city with a concealment charm. There was no involvement from any Sunreaver or the usage of anything Dalaran-related to steal it. We did it with a device from Fanlyr Silverthorn, who's a member of the Reliquary. Likewise, Jaina had no way of actually knowing that Garrosh had the Bell. Which shows the another Alliance flaw in regards to this whole thing, i.e. how Jaina had no sufficient evidence to attack any Sunreavers, let alone them all. She got the idea it was Sunreavers only after she found the portal through which Fanlyr used to transport the Bell to Silvermoon through Dalaran.

From Nazgrim's commentary to the player Fanlyr (again, not a Sunreaver) was the one who teleported it to Silvermoon as per the orders he was given, which opens the possibility that it was him who opened that portal to Dalaran from Darnassus' side. Just like he opened a portal directly back to the Horde camp in Krasarang for the player, showing that the wards in Darnassus weren't really that good and didn't need a bypass through Dalaran.

The only involvement from Sunreavers that we know of for sure is that a Sunreaver agent helped to smuggle it through the city after it was already there and that Aethas stumbled upon the crime in progress but was threatened into silence. So there's not really much for Jaina's accusation to hold any merit. For all she knew that portal could have been created by a local Grell.

I don't actually know if the Council of Six would have disagreed with the Purge. At the time of Legion, the current members of the council only agreed to allow the Horde to enter the city and use it as a mutual staging ground in a 4-2 vote, and this was in the face of the Burning Legion. At the time of MoP, at least two members of the Council of Six were explicitly against the Horde (Jaina Proudmoore and Ansirem Runeweaver), and while Archmage Modera is not explicitly against the Horde, she would go on to actively participate in the Kirin Tor Offensive. That said, around this time the Council of Six rejected Jaina's suggestion to destroy Orgrimmar, though I don't know if the same logic (i.e.: too many innocents and children would get caught up in the attack) would be used for the Sunreavers.

Like I said, the leader of the Council of Six doesn't even have a tie-breaker vote. Which is why in case of a tie the vote simply fails and at best needs to be redone later on (which is what happened when the Kirin Tor deliberated on whether to aid Theramore or not). So even if Jaina and Runeweaver managed to get Modera on their side there still would be a stalemate, because I doubt any of the remaining members would be convinced too.

[Aresk]

Since when do these two acts alone exhaust the scope of treason? Historically treason covered a wide array of acts, going as far as simply being a Catholic priest in certain periods of British history. Instigating conflict against another nation (one that was just allied no less) with no proper authorization could have very well fallen under that. Especially since it effectively aided a third party that the Alliance was actually at war with, vide the part about factions being unable to deal with the Legion. And aiding an enemy your nation is at war with remains a part of the legal definition of treason in many countries even to this day.

Genn and Rogers were not colluding with the Legion. By your logic, we shouldn't have fought the Twilight's Hammer in Cataclysm because we were in the midst of the Alliance-Horde War and fighting them was also effectively aiding the other faction. It doesn't hold weight.

You said their attack was motivated by Alliance's interests. Not their view on what that entails. And those are not synonyms in the slightest. Again, the very reason why we needed Class Orders to lead the charge against the Legion was the fact that the Alliance and the Horde were at each others' throats and couldn't do so as they would usually do. That's from Blizzard's own preview of Class Orders at Blizzcon. If the outbreak of the conflict was so dire that it prevented the factions from doing what they'd usually manage, that shows their capabilities were weakened as they were now stretched too thin in two different conflicts at once. That's, once again, the opposite of Alliance's interests. Unless you want to tell me that Alliance strives for being too weak to deal with an ongoing apocalypse, but I find that somewhat doubtful.

But let's look at this perspective of theirs anyway. The idea that the Horde hung the Alliance out to dry at Broken Shore, let alone led to Varian's death, is a pile of nonsense that doesn't hold up to any level of scrutiny. Even from their perspective. When the Alliance retreated from the Broken Shore they did so via gunship. Which provided them with the aerial view of the battlefield. Which, in turn, would have shown them unobstructed view of 1.the Legion spaceships that forced the Horde to retreat (you can still see them even from the Alliance's ground position, but only two), 2. the active Legion portals on Horde's side and 3. the swarm of demons that crawled out of these portals, completely overrunning the Horde position once the spaceships broke their ranks. And since Genn himself spent the flight looking towards the battleground and shouting at clouds, he personally had all of this information available to him from the get go unless he developed some kind of selective blindness. At least the likes of Anduin have an excuse of not being there themselves, Genn has none.

And there's absolutely no causal relation between Horde's retreat and Varian's death. Varian got killed by the Fel Reaver that wasn't even on Azeroth when the Horde left, the gunship arrived immediately afterwards and took care of anti-air and the demons from the Horde's side would need a hike around the entire island to get from there to the Alliance's position unless they wanted to jump off a cliff first. There is however a causal link between the Horde's retreat and non-Varian Alliance members surviving, because they only retreated because the Horde retreated first. If the Horde followed through with the only alternative they had of "dropping dead", the Alliance would have been obliterated as well. Especially since we learned five minutes after returning from Broken Shore that it was a trap (that the factions walked in thanks to Alliance's incompetence no less) and one that was literally unwinnable.

When talking about someone's motivation, one is almost certainly talking about that motivation from the point of view of the character. When I'm talking about them acting on behalf of Alliance interests, I thought it inferred that it was what they thought Alliance interests are. Regardless, it seems clear now. As for the conjecture about what was seen from the deck of the Skyfire, no Alliance member makes any mention of the Horde being overrun, with Genn and Jaina both claiming the Horde left them to die there. Regardless of what they did or did not see, I'm not claiming that Genn and Rogers are making logical, unbiased assessments. I'm only presenting the points of view that they show surrounding Varian's death (Genn literally says "Damn the Horde for serving us up to the Legion!" after the scenario as the quest completion dialogue) and the preparations for the assault into Stormheim. You can criticize them all you want for the nonsensicality of their views, but I never set out to prove that they were rational or that the attack was even the proper course of action given the situation. I've only--hopefully--illustrated that they were motivated by seeing the Horde as a threat that needed dealt with.

Anduin was unsure about what to do with the Horde because unlike Genn he wasn't there and didn't see a literal legion of evidence showing that the Horde had no other choice but to retreat. Had Genn not started an open conflict with the Horde there was still an opportunity for the brainlets in Alliance to realize that the Horde has no interest in letting the Legion to destroy the world they live on just to spite some human twerps and to talk it out instead. And the existence of an ongoing Legion invasion points out to how maintaining cooperation even after Broken Shore would have been desirable for both sides. As for the Class Orders, like I said they needed to lead the charge against the Legion because of the faction conflict. They weren't leading anything yet prior to Stormheim. Their first somewhat coordinated offensives take place only after you finish a zone.

This still doesn't show 1) that the agreement about the Broken Shore was still in effect (the terms of which we never really get) and 2) that Stormheim is the catalyst for the dissolution of their cooperation. While I don't deny the Armies of Legionfall only come about after Stormheim, discussion of Horde/Alliance conflict is presented before then. Khadgar alludes to the world going to war in Dalaran. Jaina likewise discusses the Horde arming themselves in the same breath she mentions the Legion's advance, suggesting that, at least to her, the two are equal threats to the Alliance. While it's clear Tattersail didn't expect an Alliance gunship to attack at that specific point in time, there's nothing to suggest that they were in violation of some pact. I can't prove some pact wasn't in place, but given no one makes mention of a violation of some ceasefire or agreement on either side and there was a communication breakdown after the Broken Shore, I think you'll be hard pressed to prove one did exist.

[SinR]

I Really don't care.

[Feanoro]

Today I learned that, in Mehrunes' world, attacking the Horde is colluding with the Legion. Stated another way, he will twist the meaning of words to defend the Horde, all while hypocritically berating and insulting others about word definitions.

Good of him to let us know he stands with Blizzard on the whole "victims shouldn't seek justice" message in WoW. May I suggest anyone actually interested in lore discussion not allow him to derail yet another thread?

[VladlTutushkin]

Since when do these two acts alone exhaust the scope of treason? Historically treason covered a wide array of acts, going as far as simply being a Catholic priest in certain periods of British history. Instigating conflict against another nation (one that was just allied no less) with no proper authorization could have very well fallen under that. Especially since it effectively aided a third party that the Alliance was actually at war with, vide the part about factions being unable to deal with the Legion. And aiding an enemy your nation is at war with remains a part of the legal definition of treason in many countries even to this day.




You said their attack was motivated by Alliance's interests. Not their view on what that entails. And those are not synonyms in the slightest. Again, the very reason why we needed Class Orders to lead the charge against the Legion was the fact that the Alliance and the Horde were at each others' throats and couldn't do so as they would usually do. That's from Blizzard's own preview of Class Orders at Blizzcon. If the outbreak of the conflict was so dire that it prevented the factions from doing what they'd usually manage, that shows their capabilities were weakened as they were now stretched too thin in two different conflicts at once. That's, once again, the opposite of Alliance's interests. Unless you want to tell me that Alliance strives for being too weak to deal with an ongoing apocalypse, but I find that somewhat doubtful.

But let's look at this perspective of theirs anyway. The idea that the Horde hung the Alliance out to dry at Broken Shore, let alone led to Varian's death, is a pile of nonsense that doesn't hold up to any level of scrutiny. Even from their perspective. When the Alliance retreated from the Broken Shore they did so via gunship. Which provided them with the aerial view of the battlefield. Which, in turn, would have shown them unobstructed view of 1.the Legion spaceships that forced the Horde to retreat (you can still see them even from the Alliance's ground position, but only two), 2. the active Legion portals on Horde's side and 3. the swarm of demons that crawled out of these portals, completely overrunning the Horde position once the spaceships broke their ranks. And since Genn himself spent the flight looking towards the battleground and shouting at clouds, he personally had all of this information available to him from the get go unless he developed some kind of selective blindness. At least the likes of Anduin have an excuse of not being there themselves, Genn has none.

And there's absolutely no causal relation between Horde's retreat and Varian's death. Varian got killed by the Fel Reaver that wasn't even on Azeroth when the Horde left, the gunship arrived immediately afterwards and took care of anti-air and the demons from the Horde's side would need a hike around the entire island to get from there to the Alliance's position unless they wanted to jump off a cliff first. There is however a causal link between the Horde's retreat and non-Varian Alliance members surviving, because they only retreated because the Horde retreated first. If the Horde followed through with the only alternative they had of "dropping dead", the Alliance would have been obliterated as well. Especially since we learned five minutes after returning from Broken Shore that it was a trap (that the factions walked in thanks to Alliance's incompetence no less) and one that was literally unwinnable.




Anduin was unsure about what to do with the Horde because unlike Genn he wasn't there and didn't see a literal legion of evidence showing that the Horde had no other choice but to retreat. Had Genn not started an open conflict with the Horde there was still an opportunity for the brainlets in Alliance to realize that the Horde has no interest in letting the Legion to destroy the world they live on just to spite some human twerps and to talk it out instead. And the existence of an ongoing Legion invasion points out to how maintaining cooperation even after Broken Shore would have been desirable for both sides. As for the Class Orders, like I said they needed to lead the charge against the Legion because of the faction conflict. They weren't leading anything yet prior to Stormheim. Their first somewhat coordinated offensives take place only after you finish a zone.




Where do you see "liking" in there? Is this another "usurper" kind of thing where the Venn diagram of the actual meaning of words and what you think they mean are two circles existing in completely separate universes?

Because if you were not liking it, you wouldnt praise it compared to Garroshe’s actions.

But you did.

So in turn, i praise Anduin’s flawless foresight and Calia’s impeccable charisma.

You can try to be clever all you want, but you will never succeed. You either subscribe to all Blizz bullshit writing or not praise any of it. But you never pick one, you bring up whatever supports your narrative this moment, and then try to mislead people or change the topic when it reaches an uncomfortable point of “but then the rest of this shit is also “acceptable”.

I would say more, but admin may decide that i am too “rude” towards you and ban me, robbing me of such stimulating intellectual discourse.

@VladlTutushkin @Mehrunes @Feanoro

Please drop interpersonal arguments and stay on topic.

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Today I learned that, in Mehrunes' world, attacking the Horde is colluding with the Legion. Stated another way, he will twist the meaning of words to defend the Horde, all while hypocritically berating and insulting others about word definitions.

Good of him to let us know he stands with Blizzard on the whole "victims shouldn't seek justice" message in WoW. May I suggest anyone actually interested in lore discussion not allow him to derail yet another thread?

Guy just trains to be a lawyer, dont be too harsh on him. They have hard time not twisting simplest cases into convoluted pretzels.

[Megitsune]

It would be great to have the Forsaken evolve. As long as they don't fully turn into "Hordeside Humans" and keep some of their identity, I'm cool with it. They need to go on a different path than what Sylvanas was trying to lead them down. They need to find another way to solve their issues of not being able to reproduce and sustain themselves. Calia definitely needs more (in-game) character development though.

[Ardenaso]

I will never understand the utterly pointless fascination with morality in a setting such as warcraft.

hey let me just relive my Argent Crusade paladin RP >

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The Alliance of Lordaeron and the current Alliance are not the same factions. Moreover, the Tyr's Hand peasant massacre was perpetuated by the forces of Lordaeron and Garithos was a knight of Lordaeron. If anyone inherits these sins, it would likely be the Forsaken.

I could wager Turalyon or perhaps even Alleria had took part in it

There was no genocide. The did invade part of the Stonespire's land and did force them off it to setup the excavation site Bael Modan, using violence when they resisted; however, there was no wholesale, calculated slaughter. It would be fair to call it an unjustified invasion of their lands, but genocide is several steps too far.

isn't driving off natives of their rightful land part of genocide? the Stonespire speaker also says that his tribe is practically no more

I'm unsure what you mean by biological terrorism, or why you would even bring that up as the Forsaken regularly use plague bombs and other biological and chemical agents in war. Regarding the use of tossing Horde ambassadors into the Void, yeah, it's a horrible way to die. The Horde probably shouldn't have started a war that no one wanted and proceeded to burn thousands of people to death.

I mean that's the point, the Alliance isn't really any better than the Horde

[Magical Mudcrab]

I could wager Turalyon or perhaps even Alleria had took part in it

You could try and argue that point, but there's no evidence of this, whereas we know that the Tyr's Hand massacre was done by the forces of Lordaeron.

isn't driving off natives of their rightful land part of genocide? the Stonespire speaker also says that his tribe is practically no more

No, genocide is a deliberate effort with the intent of destroying an ethic group. In the case of Bael Modan, the Explorers League wanted to setup an excavation site on part of the Stonespire's land. They did so forcibly and occupied the land. The subsequent excavation of what the Tauren perceived as a holy site is what caused the resulting conflicts that appear to have more-or-less dissolved the Stonespire clan (either through killing them for attacking the site, or by them leaving the land, it's not made clear and likely a mix of both).

I mean that's the point, the Alliance isn't really any better than the Horde

No, there is a difference between the Horde, by the actions of Sylvanas, committing a genocide at Teldrassil, and their previous attempts at geonocide during Mists of Pandaria, and the Alliance sometimes doing thing that are bad. Even in the example you gave, if I were to accept that the Alliance had used biological terrorism at Zul'dazar, that doesn't mean there is some moral equivalence between that and the decades of the Forsaken using plague bombs and biological and chemical agents.