STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[arkanon]

Mostly no, it's not. There might be a very few stragglers that will say stuff like this but most of those are just trying to get a rise out of people. The real world works this way. Some people can acquire things through skill and experience much sooner than others. The others, if they care enough, can be persistent, save and end up in the same place given time. The second way, if we're being honest, is probably more difficult to complete. Games offer much in the way of temptation along the way. That's what they do and it's often very difficult to stick to a plan.

Correct me if im reading this wrong, but your claim is that the method that requires more skill and experience is LESS difficult?

[Kyriani]

Correct me if im reading this wrong, but your claim is that the method that requires more skill and experience is LESS difficult?

I can't speak for Mona but, I think they meant that it's maybe not less "difficult" in the sense of requiring "skill/reflexes/preparation", but perhaps more "difficult" in the sense of "being willing to stick with a repetitive grind" over a longer period of time than those with "skill" have to invest.

For example, let's say Heroic raiders need 2-3 months of raiding 2-3 nights a week for 3-4 hours to get fully kitted out, but for casual non-raiders to reach the same gear level, they need to invest an hour a day, every day for 5 months and any missed days = progress lost and thus longer to finish. Different people will have differing opinions on which path is "easier" depending on their skill level, available time to play, and willingness to stick to a set of repetitive tasks over a longer span of time.

[MoanaLisa]

I can't speak for Mona but, I think they meant that it's maybe not less "difficult" in the sense of requiring "skill/reflexes/preparation", but perhaps more "difficult" in the sense of "being willing to stick with a repetitive grind" over a longer period of time than those with "skill" have to invest.

Precisely correct, the operative phrase being 'to complete'. Something that takes months to see to completion, especially if the task is repetitive, has a difficulty all its own. It's about discipline which is often more difficult for people.

[arkanon]

I can't speak for Mona but, I think they meant that it's maybe not less "difficult" in the sense of requiring "skill/reflexes/preparation", but perhaps more "difficult" in the sense of "being willing to stick with a repetitive grind" over a longer period of time than those with "skill" have to invest.

For example, let's say Heroic raiders need 2-3 months of raiding 2-3 nights a week for 3-4 hours to get fully kitted out, but for casual non-raiders to reach the same gear level, they need to invest an hour a day, every day for 5 months and any missed days = progress lost and thus longer to finish. Different people will have differing opinions on which path is "easier" depending on their skill level, available time to play, and willingness to stick to a set of repetitive tasks over a longer span of time.

Where did you come up with those numbers from, and did you check the math? It also assumes the "heroic raider" ONLY does heroic raiding, and isnt compelled to complete the same task the "casual" is ontop of their raiding, as is usually the case with recent expansions. You also make a strange comment about the casual missing a day and falling behind, but dont say the same for a raider? If the raider is away for a raid day he loses 4 hours of raid time, but the casual only loses 1 hour?

But I ask again, before everyone pats themselves on the back for a point well proven - where did those numbers come from? and i ask again, did you check the math?

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Precisely correct, the operative phrase being 'to complete'. Something that takes months to see to completion, especially if the task is repetitive, has a difficulty all its own. It's about discipline which is often more difficult for people.

Like the discipline to raid at set times, on set days, moving your life around to fit, and fail the same bosses sometimes dozens, even hundreds of times (depending on difficulty obviously), only for your item not to drop?

[MoanaLisa]

Like the discipline to raid at set times, on set days, moving your life around to fit, and fail the same bosses sometimes dozens, even hundreds of times (depending on difficulty obviously), only for your item not to drop?

You win. I can't even agree with you without submitting to endless questions that are beside the point. Just forget I said anything. Really.

[Triceron]

Like the discipline to raid at set times, on set days, moving your life around to fit, and fail the same bosses sometimes dozens, even hundreds of times (depending on difficulty obviously), only for your item not to drop?

You can always buy gold and pay for boosts if you don't like the way it works, right?

Or do the sensible thing and just quit playing when you feel it's wasting your time.

[arkanon]

You can always buy gold and pay for boosts if you don't like the way it works, right?

Or do the sensible thing and just quit playing when you feel it's wasting your time.

Totally agree, in particular about the second part. The EXACT same can be said about the "other" way of obtaining the same loot, in the example i was responding to, but i agree.

[m4Zzo928]

So the person claiming it would be universally praised as a positive for casual players is incorrect?

I ask because i tried to say the same thing many are saying - a bit of a slog to get some good items is perfect - what that slog is differs person to person, but just being given free loot doesnt seem to be desired by many "casuals" at all.

I exaggerated to make a point. Of course I dont think casuals, or any player would technically want super easy loot, but I most certainly think they'd take it if it was available, and perhaps to follow up with an improved loot quality and table, they could keep epics as a more casual oriented level of gear, that takes less effort, but just enough effort that it's worth it. For the new tier I propose, it would take a bigger commitment for those looking for more prestigious grind rewards.

In this scenario I think your have two happy groups so long as the gameplay is engaging enough, and there's enough of it. The other point was human nature resorting to the path least traveled, or resistance. Blizzard needs to take that into account, because inevitably the casual crowd would scream foul about the higher tier of gear that they believe they should get.

[Echo of Soul]

So the person claiming it would be universally praised as a positive for casual players is incorrect?

I ask because i tried to say the same thing many are saying - a bit of a slog to get some good items is perfect - what that slog is differs person to person, but just being given free loot doesnt seem to be desired by many "casuals" at all.

Here here. Casuals don't deserve fucking loot. If you don't do premade group content you've given up any right you have to get rewards. Get good or GTFO, no more of this solo BiS gear bullshit.

[Echocho]

Precisely correct, the operative phrase being 'to complete'. Something that takes months to see to completion, especially if the task is repetitive, has a difficulty all its own. It's about discipline which is often more difficult for people.

It's like going to the gym right? Going there four times per week for a year straight requires mental discipline, it's much easier to stay at home on the couch but if you do that you're not going to get the reward at the end.

Playing soccer with your friends once per week is much easier because it's also a social experience so you're looking forward to it, it's also more fun. But mechanically soccer is much more difficult than going to the gym.

[arkanon]

I exaggerated to make a point. Of course I dont think casuals, or any player would technically want super easy loot, but I most certainly think they'd take it if it was available, and perhaps to follow up with an improved loot quality and table, they could keep epics as a more casual oriented level of gear, that takes less effort, but just enough effort that it's worth it. For the new tier I propose, it would take a bigger commitment for those looking for more prestigious grind rewards.

In this scenario I think your have two happy groups so long as the gameplay is engaging enough, and there's enough of it. The other point was human nature resorting to the path least traveled, or resistance. Blizzard needs to take that into account, because inevitably the casual crowd would scream foul about the higher tier of gear that they believe they should get.

Just to be clear, i was NOT attacking your suggestion, i was referencing a comment made earlier, by someone else:

"We have opened up a daily that guarantees you a BiS item that you don't already have and you just have to pick 1 flower"

This change is casual friendly by everyone's definition. You just made a change for the casual playerbase.

I tried very gently to explain that, in my experience, this is NOT what "casuals" have been asking for - in fact many complain that the covenant loot, although quite decent compared to early expansions, was quite powerful, it was extremely fast to obtain, or hard gated, both of which where not enjoyable to them. Now obviously this isnt the case for everyone, not even everyone who identifies as "casual", but it does seem to be a strong majority who agree.

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It's like going to the gym right? Going there four times per week for a year straight requires mental discipline, it's much easier to stay at home on the couch but if you do that you're not going to get the reward at the end.

So which is "harder" - going to the gym 5 times a week at whatever time works for you to casually walk on the treadmill for 60 minutes a day for 5 months - OR - going to the same gym 3-4 times a week, at set times and days, for 4 hours per session, and doing intense total body workouts and spin classes with 10-20 other people who rely on you being there, for 3 months?

Because my argument remains the same - both require SOME effort, both require SOME dedication, and the main difference between what is more manageable will be determined by the individual. For example, many years ago, in early days of TBC, i worked shifts, so because of that, i often could not make raid nights, sometimes for 2-3 weeks in a row, depending on my roster. This made raiding very challenging, FOR ME PERSONALLY but not because of the raids themselves, it was a logistic thing for me personally. That meant that i was more likely to obtain loot other ways, farming heroic dungeons, crafting, etc, because it fit with my lifestyle better.

But i would never argue that farming motes or heroic dungeons was/is HARDER than raiding.

[m4Zzo928]

@arkanon

Gently explain? I'm not married to the debate lol. So, you're saying casuals want more of a grind from what the covenants offer? Perhaps they're on the same page that I'm on then. Maybe learning the harder way that easy loot, isn't sustainable.

[arkanon]

@arkenon

Gently explain? I'm not married to the debate lol. So, you're saying casuals want more of a grind from what the covenants offer? Perhaps they're on the same page that I'm on then. Maybe learning the harder way that easy loot, isn't sustainable.

Gently to the person i responded to, not you. That person was extremely hostile and aggressive, hence me trying not to agitate them. I also try not to speak for everyone, so was careful there as well.

Im not saying ALL "casuals" want anything, im saying one of the common themes i see from people who call themselves casuals is they DONT want loot just given, they want it to be a process over time.

[m4Zzo928]

Gently to the person i responded to, not you. That person was extremely hostile and aggressive, hence me trying not to agitate them. I also try not to speak for everyone, so was careful there as well.

Im not saying ALL "casuals" want anything, im saying one of the common themes i see from people who call themselves casuals is they DONT want loot just given, they want it to be a process over time.

Gotcha. I personally think the system going on right now is pretty good, but again I still think we need a higher tier than epic that comes in sets. The carrot on a stick is getting a bit stale, and better designed gear does help, but percieved value would help a lot too.

[Dakara]

Because my argument remains the same - both require SOME effort, both require SOME dedication, and the main difference between what is more manageable will be determined by the individual. For example, many years ago, in early days of TBC, i worked shifts, so because of that, i often could not make raid nights, sometimes for 2-3 weeks in a row, depending on my roster. This made raiding very challenging, FOR ME PERSONALLY but not because of the raids themselves, it was a logistic thing for me personally. That meant that i was more likely to obtain loot other ways, farming heroic dungeons, crafting, etc, because it fit with my lifestyle better.

But i would never argue that farming motes or heroic dungeons was/is HARDER than raiding.

Totally agree.

At 40 years old I’m still working shifts and will be for the rest of my working life, all going to plan.
I have a few friends in WOW who will run keys with me when the stars align and we’re available at the same time, likewise, I’ll tag along to the guilds Casual/Alt Raids on a Sunday. But it’s not uncommon for me to go several weeks without doing either… and this is why I consider myself a “casual”.

I couldn’t care less if Zerith Morris rewarded Mythic Raid level loot with a free legendary as a bonus… that “content” is boring as hell and not something I’m prepared to pay a subscription for. I subbed for 30 days about 28 days ago to check out the current patch and won’t be renewing it.

As I said either earlier in this thread or perhaps another one, Blizzard killed LFD when they introduced Mythic+ and then killed it again by adding better rewards for picking flowers in the World.

I find this conversation to be quite perplexing, because often times people like myself get roasted for wanting the rewards in queable dungeon content to be worthwhile, yet the community is ok with zones like ZM rewarding 252 gear just because you flew around the zone for weeks on end and spent some currency at a console.

Honestly, just allow LFD to scale on par with the solo world content and most casuals will be happy… the rewards are meaningless if the journey to get them is tedious and boring.

And for what it’s worth, Torghast was a massive wasted opportunity to add casual friendly rewards into the game. It worked for Visions…

[arkanon]

Totally agree.

At 40 years old I’m still working shifts and will be for the rest of my working life, all going to plan.
I have a few friends in WOW who will run keys with me when the stars align and we’re available at the same time, likewise, I’ll tag along to the guilds Casual/Alt Raids on a Sunday. But it’s not uncommon for me to go several weeks without doing either… and this is why I consider myself a “casual”.

I couldn’t care less if Zerith Morris rewarded Mythic Raid level loot with a free legendary as a bonus… that “content” is boring as hell and not something I’m prepared to pay a subscription for. I subbed for 30 days about 28 days ago to check out the current patch and won’t be renewing it.

As I said either earlier in this thread or perhaps another one, Blizzard killed LFD when they introduced Mythic+ and then killed it again by adding better rewards for picking flowers in the World.

I find this conversation to be quite perplexing, because often times people like myself get roasted for wanting the rewards in queable dungeon content to be worthwhile, yet the community is ok with zones like ZM rewarding 252 gear just because you flew around the zone for weeks on end and spent some currency at a console.

Honestly, just allow LFD to scale on par with the solo world content and most casuals will be happy… the rewards are meaningless if the journey to get them is tedious and boring.

And for what it’s worth, Torghast was a massive wasted opportunity to add casual friendly rewards into the game. It worked for Visions…

Agree 100% about Torghast - it was a massively wasted opportunity full stop imo.

Im not against things scaling, like heroic dungeons, but obviously this would require a pretty hefty rework of the M+ system, as suddenly the lower rewards wouldnt be worth the effort when you can just queue for a bunch of heroics to get the same ilvl loot. Im not saying it couldnt be done, im just saying what you probably already know, it would impact OTHER systems to do it that way.

[Dakara]

Agree 100% about Torghast - it was a massively wasted opportunity full stop imo.

Im not against things scaling, like heroic dungeons, but obviously this would require a pretty hefty rework of the M+ system, as suddenly the lower rewards wouldnt be worth the effort when you can just queue for a bunch of heroics to get the same ilvl loot. Im not saying it couldnt be done, im just saying what you probably already know, it would impact OTHER systems to do it that way.

I suspect (just an assumption) that the players who spend all their time in low keys would probably be just as happy in LFD. And theres already is a ilvl overlap as LFD/LFR, even low keys rewards can be outpaced by world content.

However, the perfect balance (IMO) would see M0 queable via LFD and M+ keys squished to prevent massive ilvl overlaps.

Basically my point boils down to “If I can get 252 gear from playing solo in ZM, why can’t I get equivalent rewards from queable group content”.

[Coldkil]

But this got repetetive and boring, how many more times before Discipline Bubble and Spirit Link to counter the whole fight and easy loot?

I am not a fan of the new system myself, i have weaker players that cause wipes and require more tries to learn it and this shift of multiple personal mechanics that wipe the rest is starting to tire me a lot, but i understand the shift as a player from the developers, its the same game for 18 years, new things must be created.

Oh i fully agree. That's why designing fights is hard. What i meant is that they should ditch the idea that evey fight needs to have all tyoes of mechanics together. Also as you said is cannot simply be raid wide unavoidable damage to cheese though with CDs.

Sometimes less is more. But i agree that it doesn't have to be the same things just with different visual cues.

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Calm down with your "dog shit" nonsense, your epeen boner is too much for us to handle. It's especially annoying because you try to rub it in so deep that you don't even understand that this discussion wasn't about some wannabe pro-raiders during progress or whatever.
The Vault wasn't mentioned and this is not what it was about. It was about guilds not killing the Jailer because he was too difficult and people would rather loot better stuff from killing mythic or heroic bosses instead of doing normal or heroic jailer.

Not because "the 3 extra items completely ruin my vault, lmao why would I kill him"

But he is right about that. Jailer doesn't give good loot or tier set, excluding a couple of pieces. Most progress oriented guilds just ignored him to go mythic since you can get 278 gear from 15s aswell. HC for them is just a stepping stone with very low value, for others is their endgame.

But it's a fact that Jailer loot/progression wise is a nearly useless boss.

[KrayZ33]

But he is right about that. Jailer doesn't give good loot or tier set, excluding a couple of pieces. Most progress oriented guilds just ignored him to go mythic since you can get 278 gear from 15s aswell. HC for them is just a stepping stone with very low value, for others is their endgame.

But it's a fact that Jailer loot/progression wise is a nearly useless boss.

By the time this came up it sounded like the other poster was saying that guilds don't kill the Jailer and stay at 10/11 (like "we did it guys, see you next addon") because Jailer doesn't drop any loot and thus guilds don't bother trying. And anyway, how many would-be Jailer parses do you think are "missing" for that exact reason and not for the much more obvious and simpler reason that is also connected to this: He is difficult.
Random groups certainly don't have any reason to go there most of the time as there is hardly any cohesion in there and people will leave as soon as the wiping starts... but guilds or groups that raid together?

Context.

But maybe all the guilds I've been playing in over all the expansions have had a different mindset than the usual WoW player.
We usually go into the raid with the intend to clear the raid, no matter who drops what.

[nvaelz]

Just go and play some PVP m8 it's made for the bottom 99% of people now since everything is condomized.