Texas Elementary School Shooting, as many as 22 dead, including Children

[Deianeira]

Ah, with leaders like these... literally one solution again and again, the 'thoughts and prayers'.

Nono but you see they are not doing the "thoughts and prayers" anymore. Now they are "horrified and Heartbroken" you see.

[zorkuus]

they engaged him, he fired back. They suffered minor injuries (whatever that means) and allowed him to enter the school. Complete failure.

'Local PD waited for Border Patrol to respond.

It's very, very important to note that two cops and a "safety" officer failed to stop this kid. The response seems to have been delayed to prioritize the safety of the police.'

If the police are afraid to heroically put their lives at risk, I wouldn't trust random citizens with guns to do it either. These wannabe Rambo's would just run, like everyone else.

[Iain]

But if the news dont say his name on tv, but he is tried and sentenced he IS in the public record. Seems to me you are just lazy and cant be bothered to check the public record for what the shooters name are if you are so interested.

Any time anyone is arrested their identity immediately becomes public record. Clearly nobody is arguing against this because it's an important part of the checks and balances in our justice system.

What people (including you) are indeed arguing against is stroking the perpetrator's ego and blasting his entire identity, which includes his name, through every news outlet. Purely because of the obvious way it satisfies a large part of why anyone would commit such a thing in the first place.

So what's been going on for the last couple of pages is a classic motte and bailey. It's easy to argue someone's name should be a public record (the motte). But that's boring, and that's not what the discussion is about. Making the proposition that their name should be everywhere is much juicier, but that comes with all the nasty implications of inspiring more shooters, much harder to defend (the bailey). So whenever the copy-cat problem arises, it's easy to retreat back to 'it should just be public record'.

It's an exhausting way to discuss this matter. Especially considering how sensitive and fresh the subject matter is.

[Slant]

If the police are afraid to heroically put their lives at risk, I wouldn't trust random citizens with guns to do it either. These wannabe Rambo's would just run, like everyone else.

You're ignoring that these wannabe Rambos are stupid fucks. A police officer is probably keenly aware of his own mortality, while the gun nuts typically follow the logic of "bad things only happen to other people".

[Specialka]

they engaged him, he fired back. They suffered minor injuries (whatever that means) and allowed him to enter the school. Complete failure.

'Local PD waited for Border Patrol to respond.

It's very, very important to note that two cops and a "safety" officer failed to stop this kid. The response seems to have been delayed to prioritize the safety of the police.'

What do you want them to do ? Charge in and get guns down because he was waiting for them ?

[Slant]

What do you want them to do ? Charge in and get guns down because he was waiting for them ?

It's literally part of their job. 3:1 ratio doesn't scream "be defensive" against a lone gunman.

[Specialka]

It's literally part of their job. 3:1 ratio doesn't scream "be defensive" against a lone gunman.

The job of the basic police Officer is not to charge at a hunkered gun man. I would say the SWAT or the equivalent is there for that.

[jonnysensible]

The job of the basic police Officer is not to charge at a hunkered gun man. I would say the SWAT or the equivalent is there for that.

he wasnt hunkered when they engaged. He had crashed his car

[Specialka]

he wasnt hunkered when they engaged. He had crashed his car

You say he fled into the school. Once he is inside, and they are not, chasing him is suicide.

[beanman12345]

Can someone please tell me what the point is of giving our cops apcs and military gear if they can't even stop one 18 year old from slaughtering a school when the cops where already on scene.

Because defunding them, so they don't have all this pointless stuff that doesn't help anyone, is bad politics, I guess.

[Iain]

It's literally part of their job. 3:1 ratio doesn't scream "be defensive" against a lone gunman.

Police have discretionary authority. In normal speak this means they can choose which laws they want to enforce and when.

[Slant]

The job of the basic police Officer is not to charge at a hunkered gun man. I would say the SWAT or the equivalent is there for that.

Again, 3:1 ratio. Police is trained in this shit. They know some basic tactics. One of which would be "don't charge head on into a gunman behind cover." or "Send someone around so they can attack from behind, don't sit there with three grown man holding hands while hoping for the SWAT team to fix what you ought to have fixed 5 minutes ago."

You're literally saying the SPECIAL WEAPONS AND TACTICS TEAM is required to take ONE (!) gunman down. That's embarassing. How many SWAT teams do you think there are for a given city or heck, small town? :P

- - - Updated - - -

Police have discretionary authority. In normal speak this means they can choose which laws they want to enforce and when.

A situation like that doesn't leave discretionary authority to police officers. They HAVE to enforce the law. They don't have to do it right now, if the risk is too high, but they can't ignore it. Words have meaning. Meaning matters.

[Shadowferal]

What do you want them to do ? Charge in and get guns down because he was waiting for them ?

Actually, One Border Patrol agent who was working nearby when the shooting began rushed into the school without waiting for backup and shot and killed the gunman

[Edge-]

Ah, with leaders like these... literally one solution again and again, the 'thoughts and prayers'.

This is code for, "We continue to be perfectly fine sacrificing children so avoid having to solve any problems."

[Slant]

Actually, One Border Patrol agent who was working nearby when the shooting began rushed into the school without waiting for backup and shot and killed the gunman

And that's what the story of any law enforcement officer should read like. Go in, do your job. 21 children, for god's sake. Who's sitting in a corner crying for backup while 21 children are being killed? Those guys? They need to get fired, they're useless and waste tax money. They wasted their once in a life time opportunity to justify all that donut money.

[Iain]

A situation like that doesn't leave discretionary authority to police officers. They HAVE to enforce the law. They don't have to do it right now, if the risk is too high, but they can't ignore it. Words have meaning. Meaning matters.

They truly do not have to enforce the law, that's what discretionary authority means. And indeed these words matter. The implications of discretionary authority means that the police officers who sacrifice themselves when they're not obliged to are true heroes. It also means that police officers who don't enforce the law when it wouldn't be morally just to do so (like arresting a man who was speeding to get his pregnant wife to the hospital) can be recognised for their responsible restraint.

[Slant]

This is code for, "We continue to be perfectly fine sacrificing children so avoid having to solve any problems."

Sacrifice? You mean investment. Investment into more votes. Somehow they'll pin this on the democrats and their lousy liberal somesuch or another and get to put Trump back in the oval office.

- - - Updated - - -

They truly do not have to enforce the law, that's what discretionary authority means. And indeed these words matter. The implications of discretionary authority means that the police officers who sacrifice themselves when they're not obliged to are true heroes. It also means that police officers who don't enforce the law when it wouldn't be morally just to do so (like arresting a man who was speeding to get his pregnant wife to the hospital) can be recognised for their responsible restraint.

Nobody gives a shit about "true heroes" really. That's such an Americanism. If what you say is true, it's one more explanation as to why US society is so... damaged.

[Edge-]

And that's what the story of any law enforcement officer should read like. Go in, do your job. 21 children, for god's sake. Who's sitting in a corner crying for backup while 21 children are being killed? Those guys? They need to get fired, they're useless and waste tax money. They wasted their once in a life time opportunity to justify all that donut money.

I mean...this is the country where a cop literally assassinated an unarmed man begging for his life, retired before he could face disciplinary action, faced no criminal charge, and then was temporarily re-hired on to that, in addition to his pension, he could get additional disability pension for the PTSD he suffered from after assassinating an unarmed man begging for his life.

This is America, yo. Cops being cowardly and murderously incompetent fucks is a feature.

[Specialka]

Actually, One Border Patrol agent who was working nearby when the shooting began rushed into the school without waiting for backup and shot and killed the gunman

He was wounded in the action, so lucky to be out alive...

[jonnysensible]

He was wounded in the action, so lucky to be out alive...

its their fucking jobs to put themselves in harms way, 2 cops and one guard were fucking pussies, pissing their pants until someone with some stones showed up