Proof that old Talents promoted more originality from players

[munkeyinorbit]

People were blissfully uninformed back then. Today nobody would intentionally play a spec that performs 2% worse.

I do all the time. Every patch I have a look at a guide to see if something's changed and there's something obviously stupid about my talents. Then I look at what's the best and if it's something I don't like doing and there's something not quite so powerful but still ok that I like, then I choose that.

At the casual end of playing, 2% of dps is only 200 dps. Who fucking cares. You get way more dps by actually playing something you are comfortable with well.

[ellieg]

That's why I addressed your more interesting example,

Even if we put aside that Kyrian and Night Fae are very thematically appropriate for Arcane,

You claimed the same thing with the mages lol.

So you want to look at numbers but you don't. And you want to claim classes have themes but also want to talk about 25% being the standard. Always shifting the goal posts

[pahbi]

Not sure I would call this proof.

But so what.

If having the big talent trees lets players make weird builds and do crazy stuff and have fun, then I say go for it.

Keep in mind that raids and mythics will require certain build choices and folks are going to rightly insist that you show up with the correct build.

[Infinity Cubed]

If having the big talent trees lets players make weird builds and do crazy stuff and have fun, then I say go for it.

Agreed.

Keep in mind that (shitty leaders for pick-up) raids and mythics will require certain build choices and folks are going to rightly insist that you show up with the correct build.

Fixed that for you.

[shimerra]

In a world where Trump was President and idiots think the world is flat despite being able to literally see the curvature of the earth for a $40.00 plane ticket OP tosses his hat in the ring for dumbest thing.


That is exactly zero difference compared to todays system. 90% of the talents were junk like increase armor by 1% and there's exactly that kind of variety in builds now with the exact same problem: some are situational, and some flat out suck, and there's still almost always a single overall "best" pvp or pve spec that people will hate you for not using or just flat out not invite you.

Case in point going blood DK and talenting Will of the Necropolis and lich bane to death coil heal yourself could be done under the new system. Just without the 50 points of fluff in between.


The only thing missing is for whatever reason some people loved their Skinner box put a point in .5% crit talent for evel 53 talent point. A shiny ding and level up animation and oooh now a little treat to put in a box. There wasn't anything any more exciting than figuring out talent combos then vs now. Just because your mind is blown at being able to combine two middle tier talents instead of having one middle tier talent and one high tier talent doesn't mean the rest of us are so easily amused.


Whether or not the system ends up better is going to entirely depend on the core talent, again, which is why the fluff was removed in the first place. I don't care either way really, we're going to run into most of the same issues that existed in the old system and the current system that people like to think the old system didn't have. Unless they made the fluff more than move 1% faster per point or sinster strike does 10% more crit damage we're not making anything better just shuffling the furniture around a bit.

[Ryzeth]

You should read what you're replying to in the future, then. (It's amazing how you people can't keep up with the conversations you keep inserting yourselves into.)

Quoth the man who didn't read the post he was replying to. Considering I was only replying to the OP, and nothing else.

Again, point to where I said this. Not what others said. What I said.

[NineSpine]

You claimed the same thing with the mages lol.

So you want to look at numbers but you don't. And you want to claim classes have themes but also want to talk about 25% being the standard. Always shifting the goal posts

I addressed the numbers but now you keep telling me I don't want to talk about the numbers rather than provide a rebuttal to the part where I addressed the numbers.

[Kralljin]

All those "specs" were terrible and sub optimal. And 1% of the player base hardly provides proof.

...if Blizzard nuked some of those "specs" into oblivion mid Wotlk then that's arguably proof that they were neither terrible nor sub optimal.

[Infinity Cubed]

Quoth the man who didn't read the post he was replying to.

You see, that's the fallacy you people constantly regurgitate. You nitpick tiny little parts of a conversation, ignoring everything else (including the context in which you nitpicked from), and then proceed to strut around like some kind of arrogant peacock, firmly believing you're the greatest debater the world has ever known. And when you get called out on it, well, you start this baloney up.

It's really embarrassing how transparent it is to everyone but yourselves.

- - - Updated - - -

...if Blizzard nuked some of those "specs" into oblivion mid Wotlk then that's arguably proof that they were neither terrible nor sub optimal.

Basic logic doesn't work on them. It's like arguing with a Republican or flat-Earther. They're too invested in their ignorance to admit they're wrong, even to themselves.

[Ryzeth]

You see, that's the fallacy you people constantly regurgitate. You nitpick tiny little parts of a conversation, ignoring everything else (including the context in which you nitpicked from), and then proceed to strut around like some kind of arrogant peacock, firmly believing you're the greatest debater the world has ever known. And when you get called out on it, well, you start this baloney up.

Nope, was responding to the OP. Because it's their thread, no nitpicking was done. If I were replying to others, I would have quoted them.

Still waiting for you to point out where I said what you argued I said. You can stop with the nonsensical buzzwords.

[Kralljin]

Basic logic doesn't work on them. It's like arguing with a Republican or flat-Earther. They're too invested in their ignorance to admit they're wrong, even to themselves.

I mean, i wrote a rather lengthy post, which more or less debunked some of those specs, but i wouldn't claim that all of them were just terrible.

It's just a line thrown in there whenever the topic of those old talent trees comes up, but in this instance it's just flat out false.

[Infinity Cubed]

Nope, was responding to the OP. Because it's their thread, no nitpicking was done. If I were replying to others, I would have quoted them.

Considering you quoted me, well... nevermind. If you can't even keep up with that, you're not someone worth talking to at all.

[Utrrabbit]

60% out of four choices means that less than 50% of players are min maxing. I know this because I can do math. In a random distribution, that just means 35% of players broke from the expected distribution.

I mean your math is wrong, but keep trying.

[LionSinMaikeru]

There are currently 2,187 talent builds per spec. (8,748 including covenants) If that's not enough variety for you I'm not sure what to tell you.

Except these builds are shallow and you're still forced into a specific play style. If I don't select any talents right now it ultimately doesn't matter. With the old system you could completely change your play style with a few choices.

People were blissfully uninformed back then. Today nobody would intentionally play a spec that performs 2% worse.

Not everyone cares about min/maxing.

I certainly don't. If you're in a guild trying to get world's first or do the content on mythic / heroic, sure it matters. But in a world with LFR where encounters are pretty much faceroll, that extra 2% damage doesn't really matter. You can see all the game's content without needing to be a min/maxer.

"More originality"

Ah yes, by playing very sub-optimal specs that performed far worse than other specs.

Cookie-cutter / meta builds existed just as plainly back then as they do now. Just like bad, sub-optimal specs also exist now, still.

One question, who determines what is optimal and what is sub-optimal?

There's a reason why the default thing to determine damage was a Patchwerk fight because that is just a simple tank and spank - very low intense on DPS players. But the fact is, not every fight is a Patchwerk fight and not every fight means you're going to do the optimal damage.

Not everyone raids mythics/heroics, not everyone cares about min/maxing. Some people focus all of their energy into solo stuff like farming or questing / achievement hunting. Or PvP. There are no universal optimal builds for those things because there are too many variables.

If someone wants to spec for a bit more survivability in their DPS spec because they're having trouble doing dailies - that's optimal for them. If a healer takes a few dps talents because they find they have a bit of downtime and don't want to twiddle their thumbs or they want to not swap specs every time they're outside of a dungeon - that's optimal for them.

Meta builds will always exist - you're 100% correct. The difference though, is that at least back then you could choose to do something drastically different or have fun by mixing up your playstyle. If you wanted to do a Holy DPS Paladin or a Tanky Warlock (RIP Dark Apothesis), or a Ranged DK (Shadowfrost) you could do that with the old system. The new system is awful and restricts your choices far too much. I want to customize my character as I want.

[bloodmoth13]

Most sucked or excelled in incredibly obnoxious areas and had to be merged or removed.
The new system looks a lot like it s going to do the job properly though

[Ryzeth]

-One question, who determines what is optimal and what is sub-optimal?

-There's a reason why the default thing to determine damage was a Patchwerk fight because that is just a simple tank and spank - very low intense on DPS players. But the fact is, not every fight is a Patchwerk fight and not every fight means you're going to do the optimal damage.

-Not everyone raids mythics/heroics, not everyone cares about min/maxing. Some people focus all of their energy into solo stuff like farming or questing / achievement hunting. Or PvP. There are no universal optimal builds for those things because there are too many variables.

-If someone wants to spec for a bit more survivability in their DPS spec because they're having trouble doing dailies - that's optimal for them. If a healer takes a few dps talents because they find they have a bit of downtime and don't want to twiddle their thumbs or they want to not swap specs every time they're outside of a dungeon - that's optimal for them.

-Meta builds will always exist - you're 100% correct. The difference though, is that at least back then you could choose to do something drastically different or have fun by mixing up your playstyle. If you wanted to do a Holy DPS Paladin or a Tanky Warlock (RIP Dark Apothesis), or a Ranged DK (Shadowfrost) you could do that with the old system. The new system is awful and restricts your choices far too much. I want to customize my character as I want.

Few things to pick apart here... Firstly, logs determine what's optimal or not (generally speaking). If you have say, 2-3 specs performing far beyond the other 4-5, there's generally a reason for it. And since some people like to argue this point ... 2 people out of 50 managing to keep up with those subpar specs, does not make the spec not subpar. There is, again, generally reasons for them keeping up. Kinda like Outlaw in Legion, the different between 4 buffing back to back to back to back, is a ludicrous DPS difference to someone with 'ordinary' rng. This is, again, why logs determine things, not just sims.

Point 2: I agree, and covered that bit.
Point 3: Agree, different builds shine in different places. But the argument is about group content specifically.
Point 4: See above.
Point 5: Absolutely. I never said choices were bad, I said most of the specs were bad choices, when specifically pertaining to group content. Nobody cares if you're DPSing as a holy paladin while doing dailies. But if you're joining someone's raid group with it, expect to be questioned or kicked. That's all.

edit: I wish tank warlock with metamorphosis (from cata or mop? one of those expansions) would come back. That was legitimately fun.

[NineSpine]

I mean your math is wrong, but keep trying.

Weird how the people who say I am wrong keep declaring it but never bother to show it.

[Thestrawman]

Weird how the people who say I am wrong keep declaring it but never bother to show it.

Weird how you keep bringing up covenants in a conversation about talents.

[Zyky]

and most of those sucked

Of the listed specs, the only 2 that sucked were Arms Prot Tank Warrior and "Preg Pala". Every other spec was high end for a while, until nerfs went out to them, for example Honor Among Thieves Rogue was top tier for 3 weeks and then Blizzard gutted HAT, Another example Eye for an Eye Ret talent being busted for weeks hitting raid bosses in ICC for absurd amounts of damage.

[Dorothyjean]

One question, who determines what is optimal and what is sub-optimal?

Math. If you have 5 abilities, as a basic example, and the damage done for each is 1227, 1378, 1569, 1174 and 987... the highest damage is 1569. As you would continue through your abilities, trinkets etc. you start factoring in more numbers and it all adds up to a meta total which is the optimal spec. Another example with WW Monks where depending on the number of mobs during the fight you have to change 2 of your talents because you will get more damage done because of the math.

You don't need to min/max and I always say people should do what they like but one of the factors I see that a lot of people are horrible at is the teamwork perspective. If "I" am in a Normal raid and "I" want to play like this "I" can play like this but that isn't teamwork. Depending on the level of teamwork you want you could be selling your team short by being an "I" which is fine if you're into that sort of thing but from the perspective of everyone else in the raid it slowly builds up as a slight annoyance because all you care about is yourself. I try to play a class/spec that I want to play because that, ultimately, will be my level of fun in the game/raid etc. but once I am doing it I make sure I remove the "I" and do teamwork as my main priority. I enchant everything, min/max as best I can, use flasks, food, dps pots because I want the team to succeed because if they succeed than "I" succeed. In the same note I've met a lot of people who are just "I"'s during a raid and they don't care about dps pots, enchants, gems, changing specs because it's what "you" want to do but ultimately you are a drain on the team regardless of whether you care or not.

Back in the day with the "holy dps paladin" aka the Shockadin. No one liked those people and on some level they knew that because they did almost no healing and they did poor damage and when the loot would go out (because we needed 25 people for the raid) no one really wanted them to get anything because it would benefit someone else better. The same could be said now... you can make a Shockadin now by altering your stats and going full blown DPS but, as per the old days, everyone knows it and considering you don't need 25 people anymore for a raid (or 10) they want people who can succeed at their jobs. If you have a guild of 12 people... it's one thing to help out and be altruistic but deep down no one wants a Shockadin in their raid.