An Eye on Player Behavior and Reporting Improvements in Patch 9.2.5

[Goatfish]

You're positioning this social contract as if it will impact all areas of communication in WoW. A good majority of the discussion you're referencing, however, occurs in third party voice communication services which Blizzard has absolutely no control over; I'm pretty sure this is designed only to curb in-game text conversation so you can still have the exact culture you're describing as long as you're not saying it in tells or in raid/party chat.

Probably so, but that's part of where I run into issues. I don't need Blizzard policing my guild/raid/party chat. I'm perfectly capable of handling that between myself and my officers. The pugs or new recruits we get are perfectly capable of leaving group/guild or blocking people. It's not as if there is a shortage of people to play the game with.

I'd actually prefer if Bliz just gave us the tools to self-moderate in a more efficient and/or accurate way and let people say whatever isn't directly breaking any laws. What is "nice", "moral", "offensive", or "toxic" is really subjective, but it tends to run only in one direction. I could easily describe welcoming behavior that doesn't tell anyone about their flaws as toxic, like not telling someone their fly is down because maybe they intended to have their fly down and it's just the new fashion.

[Bladesyphon]

i have yet to see anyone throwing slurs in game when runs go smooth and everything dies as it is supposed to die.

strange in this runs nobody curses and nobody uses slurs

but then suddnely you have this od run now and then when someone performs atrociusly bad. and then indeed slurs happen - guess why they happen though - because someone destroyed the gaming experience of 4 - 19 other people

yet blizz has no problem with that .

..That still doesn't give you the right to insult or throw racial slurs at another person.

Jesus, what the hell are they teaching kids these days? Here, do I have to spell it out in big, bold words for you? Nothing gives you the right to insult, demean, throw racial slurs at a person, or otherwise make them feel like shit, period. End of discussion, thank you come again.

If that person in your scenario is performing so badly that they're making it impossible to complete the run - you are perfectly entitled to remove them from your group, and I agree wholly that Blizzard needs to figure something out with Mythic + to replace someone who drops / is removed without completely killing the key, but even until they do: YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO INSULT A PERSON BECAUSE OF THEIR PERFORMANCE. This isn't FFXIV, you aren't going to be punished for removing a person from your group if you feel they're detrimental to your experience. You're only going to be punished if you insult the person, remove them from the group, and the CONTINUE to insult them in whispers. In fact, I'll let you in a little secret - I've had to remove people from my groups before do to under performance, and I've always done so by telling them politely why they're being removed, and usually the response is usually pretty chill.

The simple fact is that the bolded has to be said is why Blizzard has to have a social contract in the first place. People like you, and the other person I quoted, simply do not grasp this fact, and now further steps have to be taken to ensure everyone has a good time in the game.

[Goatfish]

What hardcore boot camp experience are you going through in /I my guy?

The point is going through an experience of getting called out for bad play, so that when it really matters and you are sharing your time with 19 other people and you get called out personally for fucking up that you don't curl into a ball crying for a GM to ban the bad man who called you names.

I know people don't like hearing this, but the truth is that generally the best way to get over things and handle them better is through consistent experience. People are naturally adaptive, but you can't adapt to things you don't experience. Avoiding them is almost universally the worst solution, and the arguments I've seen people make here are for universal avoidance by perma-banning anyone who sometimes loses their temper or says anything critical of another player. For mental issues it's only really effective when a person seeks this out, and I encourage people to seek it out so they can get over it, but if they can't handle it then there are plenty of tools to let them avoid it.

...Everyone? I'm pretty sure everyone has the right to not be insulted. I'm not sure I'm reading your post right - are you seriously insinuating people should just be okay with going somewhere, and having someone throw insults, derogatory names and slurs, and otherwise treat them like absolute shit? Because literally every place of business, and nearly all public outdoor locations and venues, enforces the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

I am legitimately confused here at what your thought process is here on this subject.

I don't think you understand what rights are, which is sadly becoming more common in society. At least in America, where I am and where the company and server I play on are based, you can not be arrested for insulting people. Why do you think at every pride parade in the US that there is a small block usually protected by city police of people screaming profanity at the marchers? This isn't China where insulting the great leader is a death sentence.

[Relapses]

Probably so, but that's part of where I run into issues. I don't need Blizzard policing my guild/raid/party chat. I'm perfectly capable of handling that between myself and my officers. The pugs or new recruits we get are perfectly capable of leaving group/guild or blocking people. It's not as if there is a shortage of people to play the game with.

I'd actually prefer if Bliz just gave us the tools to self-moderate in a more efficient and/or accurate way and let people say whatever isn't directly breaking any laws. What is "nice", "moral", "offensive", or "toxic" is really subjective, but it tends to run only in one direction. I could easily describe welcoming behavior that doesn't tell anyone about their flaws as toxic, like not telling someone their fly is down because maybe they intended to have their fly down and it's just the new fashion.

It's my experience that guild chat is generally exempt from the TOS. And while I do generally agree with your underlying concerns, I just don't think it'll have as big of an impact on player behavior as you seem to think it will. This seems to be targeted at general toxicity in PuG raids and (probably more importantly) M+.

[aceperson]

They literally said they pulled together a team to work on improving the system.

And yet the first reaction is still "IT'S ALL AUTOMATED STILL?!".

there's always going to be a certain level of automation. Expecting every report to be handled individually would be insane.

a team to work ON THE SYSTEM... not of team of gm's... you need to learn that words have meaning and the absence of certain ones also mean things.

[Goatfish]

It's my experience that guild chat is generally exempt from the TOS. And while I do generally agree with your underlying concerns, I just don't think it'll have as big of an impact on player behavior as you seem to think it will. This seems to be targeted at general toxicity in PuG raids and (probably more importantly) M+.

I can say my feelings would be better assuaged if exactly what is meant by toxicity or offensiveness was clearly outlined rather than these broad terms that allow Bliz to ban anyone for whatever they feel like at the time, and let players feel like they can report people for whatever they want at any time. I've attempted to get a solid grasp on what toxicity is for years now, and the cumulative result has ended up being "whatever makes someone feel bad for arbitrary reasons". We really need to stop adopting slang buzz words without clear definitions into legal documents, especially if said documents don't outline or demonstrate exactly what they are referring to.

I wasn't aware that guild chat was exempt from ToS, my understanding is that any chat is covered. It's part of why most of our guild chat is now on Discord thus leaving actual guild chat mostly barren.

[kasuke06]

They could just remove chat if they're so worried that people are going to point out that some DPS is putting out less damage than the healer.

[Relapses]

I can say my feelings would be better assuaged if exactly what is meant by toxicity or offensiveness was clearly outlined rather than these broad terms that allow Bliz to ban anyone for whatever they feel like at the time, and let players feel like they can report people for whatever they want at any time. I've attempted to get a solid grasp on what toxicity is for years now, and the cumulative result has ended up being "whatever makes someone feel bad for arbitrary reasons". We really need to stop adopting slang buzz words without clear definitions into legal documents, especially if said documents don't outline or demonstrate exactly what they are referring to.

I'm with you here. It makes you wonder where it stops. I'm hoping the buck stops here but who knows with the way society is moving.

I wasn't aware that guild chat was exempt from ToS, my understanding is that any chat is covered. It's part of why most of our guild chat is now on Discord thus leaving actual guild chat mostly barren.

In the 15+ years I've played the game I can't say I've ever heard of somebody getting banned for something in gchat and I've seen some uncircumcised gamer words dropped more than a few times. You're probably better off consolidating it on Discord anyway, though.

[Twdft]

Are people actually complaining about this? A better reporting system is a net positive for the game. It makes it much less easy to be abused.

People complaining know full well that their usual behavior in chat makes them a prime candidate for being reported. Instead of wondering if they maybe, just maybe, should be less of a dick doesn't cross their mind. No, the better reporting system is bad.

[Lady Atia]

The point is going through an experience of getting called out for bad play, so that when it really matters and you are sharing your time with 19 other people and you get called out personally for fucking up that you don't curl into a ball crying for a GM to ban the bad man who called you names.

I know people don't like hearing this, but the truth is that generally the best way to get over things and handle them better is through consistent experience. People are naturally adaptive, but you can't adapt to things you don't experience. Avoiding them is almost universally the worst solution, and the arguments I've seen people make here are for universal avoidance by perma-banning anyone who sometimes loses their temper or says anything critical of another player. For mental issues it's only really effective when a person seeks this out, and I encourage people to seek it out so they can get over it, but if they can't handle it then there are plenty of tools to let them avoid it.



I don't think you understand what rights are, which is sadly becoming more common in society. At least in America, where I am and where the company and server I play on are based, you can not be arrested for insulting people. Why do you think at every pride parade in the US that there is a small block usually protected by city police of people screaming profanity at the marchers? This isn't China where insulting the great leader is a death sentence.

Of course you like it that right wings are screaming shit at the pride parade, what a surprise. Yes, it's legal in America, doesn't mean society should support it.

And I'm all for people who are not able to stop insulting others for whatever reasons should be banned asap from the game. Again, you can tell others how to be better without being an asshat.

[Celement]

People complaining know full well that their usual behavior in chat makes them a prime candidate for being reported. Instead of wondering if they maybe, just maybe, should be less of a dick doesn't cross their mind. No, the better reporting system is bad.

I that or they know blizzards system is automated and piss poor and rather not empower people to spam reports because you left their hostage situation mythic plus.

I'm so tired of being talked down to by companies for the sake of people to stupid to use an ignore feature.

[Twdft]

I that or they know blizzards system is automated and piss poor and rather not empower people to spam reports because you left their hostage situation mythic plus.

I'm so tired of being talked down to by companies for the sake of people to stupid to use an ignore feature.

You see this is the thing I don't understand: how would you be spam reported after leaving an M+? That only happens if you insult everyone on your way out. If you state the problem and tell them it's not gonna work and you go nothing will happen.

[Celement]

You see this is the thing I don't understand: how would you be spam reported after leaving an M+? That only happens if you insult everyone on your way out. If you state the problem and tell them it's not gonna work and you go nothing will happen.

It's not that hard to right click?

Every get four other people to start a vote to kick in lfr?

People will readily kick half the raid.

[Hungrydingo]

I won't be reading the social contract because I am morally opposed to them. I also won't be changing any of my behavior. If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best.

[Asrialol]

...Everyone? I'm pretty sure everyone has the right to not be insulted. I'm not sure I'm reading your post right - are you seriously insinuating people should just be okay with going somewhere, and having someone throw insults, derogatory names and slurs, and otherwise treat them like absolute shit? Because literally every place of business, and nearly all public outdoor locations and venues, enforces the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

I am legitimately confused here at what your thought process is here on this subject.

It's important to know the difference between being insulted, and being offended. The first one isn't okay, the second is is.

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I won't be reading the social contract because I am morally opposed to them. I also won't be changing any of my behavior. If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best.

You must be 15.

[Goatfish]

Of course you like it that right wings are screaming shit at the pride parade, what a surprise. Yes, it's legal in America, doesn't mean society should support it.

And I'm all for people who are not able to stop insulting others for whatever reasons should be banned asap from the game. Again, you can tell others how to be better without being an asshat.

I mean... I noticed it because I helped organize and marched in those very parades. I still protect peoples right to free speech. You are free to make all the anti-speech arguments you want, but if you expect me to agree with you then you are arguing with the wrong person. I don't have to like someone to co-exist in the same city (or game) as them.

It's endlessly funny to me that I consistently argue on the side of letting people think and act for themselves within reason but always end up getting opposed by people who are supposedly "Liberal" but want to eradicate anyone who doesn't share their beliefs. The issue is that your idea of support includes just being a neutral party. Your whole belief system hinges on stratifying people into easily identifiable and attackable groups so that you can feel morally superior, the whole "if you aren't with us you're against us" and "silence is violence" batshit ideologies.

The point is that you don't have to like the law. The law is in place ideally so that we can live together without killing each other as much as possible.

[Gadzooks]

It's my experience that guild chat is generally exempt from the TOS. And while I do generally agree with your underlying concerns, I just don't think it'll have as big of an impact on player behavior as you seem to think it will. This seems to be targeted at general toxicity in PuG raids and (probably more importantly) M+.

I don't know what it's like now, but it has been a thing in the past where people were actioned for statements in guild chat, if reported. The guilds I was in never had it happen, but I recall two instances of severe guild drama where it happened.

I don't know what the TOS is now, but my understanding is you are always responsible for anything you type into the game, regardless if it's a DM, guild chat, party chat, or whatever. It's just that guild chat wasn't monitored like /general. (If it's monitored at all these days...)

I would also think a lot of this is aimed at the PvP crowd - while I did run into toxic and obnoxious types in LFR and other grouped instances, most of the toxicity I ever really encountered was in PvP, especially when we were winning, that's when the pink text starts. I learned pretty early on, if someone made an account on your faction/server just to type filthy, angry things at you in pink, you were doing well. And that kind of competitive toxicity isn't unique to WoW, at all.

The devs allowed it to get this bad. Clearly. But they're at least acknowledging it's out of control, and proof positive are the anger issues types here in this thread defending their mouthy, arrogant behavior, like it's a right. Which is laughable, at best. They have to start somewhere, and this is it. They have to clean up the mess they helped create, and it's not going to be easy, simple, or fast. They have whole generations of WoW players who need to be educated that losing or someone else not being an elite, perfect, never-makes-a-mistake player is not a license to unload your crap personality on them. Go punch a wall or something, ffs.

[deenman]

It is toxic though? Why would anyone want to have a culture/society where people call each other shit? Besides that, who is he to decide who he is "shit" in the first place.

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PS: You can help people to become better without being an asshole. And if the new contract destroys the cultures that dude wants to preserve, well that's a big plus point for it.

shaming people is a proven method that works,they use it in a lot of situations for bettering people,including weight loss,sadly these days we have some mentaly deranged people saying ''fat is beautiful'',these people should be shamed and ridiculted not catered to their delusion and frankly dangerous thinking

[TbouncerT]

If I got a penny for every insult I took in M+ I would be now probably richer than Musk.

I don’t care, but if someone cares it’s just their right to not be insulted or harassed.

If that's the case, I could question what are you doing to cause it. Since you are the constant variable here. Some of it has to be coming from your end.

[mcnally86]

The point is going through an experience of getting called out for bad play, so that when it really matters and you are sharing your time with 19 other people and you get called out personally for fucking up that you don't curl into a ball crying for a GM to ban the bad man who called you names.

I know people don't like hearing this, but the truth is that generally the best way to get over things and handle them better is through consistent experience. People are naturally adaptive, but you can't adapt to things you don't experience. Avoiding them is almost universally the worst solution, and the arguments I've seen people make here are for universal avoidance by perma-banning anyone who sometimes loses their temper or says anything critical of another player. For mental issues it's only really effective when a person seeks this out, and I encourage people to seek it out so they can get over it, but if they can't handle it then there are plenty of tools to let them avoid it.

I do not think you read what I wrote. I think you are a shitty player. If you were a good player you would be on discord not pugging. I do not belive you have anything to offer anyone in /i so I think blizz muting you is a net win for anyone. If you were a good player you would be in a guild or doing something hard enough to warrant voice chat. To me you come off as someone mentoring people and making them better players. Start your own guild. Play with people you teach to play. You yelling at an endless churn of pugs helps no one.

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well for once maybe if bad players wouldnt try to join groups baove their skills in hope of being boosted they wouldnt be called "shit" ?

i mean how many keys were destroyed because of bad gameplay yet somehow blizzard doesnt see this as cause of toxicity - toxic are frustrated people who are frustrated because of "shit players" destroying their keys and experience in game

game with its current tuning is build on toxic foundations so this will help with nothing but further alienate playerbase.

Yea, children are idiots. Why are you in PUGs? People without the barest amount of skills can get in a guild and become a better player. Don't throw your key into a woodchipper and piss and moan the woodchipper ate your key.