I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of the old talents coming back.

[Coldkil]

Lol, that makes my thought even more so, if there is a "tree of the month" for each fight. We just have to wait and see how things go

So, like it was before and is right now. The fact talents are now something you set and forget means they're something completely passive and should be baseline.

All because you have limited choices with definite superior ones.

I find strange that people complain about actually interact with their own class tools instead of having zero agency on them.

Don't worry. Icy Veins will have your guides so you don't have to think and with presets you'll have a handy dropdown menu where all the work is done for you.

[jeezusisacasual]

So, like it was before and is right now. The fact talents are now something you set and forget means they're something completely passive and should be baseline.

All because you have limited choices with definite superior ones.

I find strange that people complain about actually interact with their own class tools instead of having zero agency on them.

Don't worry. Icy Veins will have your guides so you don't have to think and with presets you'll have a handy dropdown menu where all the work is done for you.

In a game in which we judge others for their performance thats always going to be the case. With so much information available for the game you are expected to do what is overall best because at the end of the day other players are just conduits for you to get your personal goals and accomplishments, not that i agree with that mindset but it is what they have created and would take a massive and i mean massive undertaking to change that mindset. I will copy whatever the class writer has for me without doing my own research because the outcome will be the same regardless and i say that as someone who picks a new class every patch to keep the game fresh.

[Nymrohd]

In a game in which we judge others for their performance thats always going to be the case. With so much information available for the game you are expected to do what is overall best because at the end of the day other players are just conduits for you to get your personal goals and accomplishments, not that i agree with that mindset but it is what they have created and would take a massive and i mean massive undertaking to change that mindset. I will copy whatever the class writer has for me without doing my own research because the outcome will be the same regardless and i say that as someone who picks a new class every patch to keep the game fresh.

It really will not be the same regardless though. Many specific talent choices made by writers come with the presumption of a certain level of play. The best talent setup for someone who can absolutely optimise cooldown usage per encounter and max out silent movement could actually end up giving far worse results than a somewhat less optimal but more forgiving talent setup for someone who might mess up movement and time a few cooldowns wrong, especially during progress when such things are inevitable outside RWF raiding (they are inevitable there as well they just spam so many attempts that they will get to that point faster). There have always been cases were a talent or conduit is very close to top but actually makes the spec easier to play and for the vast majority of players that should be the top pick; yet sims will tell you to pick the other one. The better writers will tell you to pick either and explain the difference IF you actually read the entire article and not just copy the list.
That's not even counting M+ were many of the changes in talent set ups have to do with utility, not throughput and may well change by affix, dungeon and group composition.

And really how are they going to tell you are doing it wrong? It's easy to inspect someone's talents now. It will be much more time consuming to do it with the new trees. Your raid leader might be able to do so after the raid but assuming they are not an asshole, you WANT them to look through them and make suggestions.

[Magical Mudcrab]

People already do this.

Exactly, and we can get even more granular than that. Did people miss the whole rationale behind M+ gear swapping restrictions and gating soulbinds and abilities behind covenants? The concern was that people would gear swap for trash and bosses, and for raiding that they would swap soulbinds and covenant abilities to be optimal for each boss. People have been doing micro-optimizations for years now. Even in BfA and Legion, many people had multiple sets of Azerite traits and Legendaries with optimal gear sets for M+ and Raiding during their respective expansion so they could swap to the most optimal setups. The idea that now, magically, only with the new talent system there is incentivize for optimizing builds is silly, especially when the new system seems to have the ability to create preset builds. This isn't a case of "I have to manually update all my talent setups each time", which would be cumbersome, it is a "I have to setup my builds once and then can quick swap when I want to use it".

[Nymrohd]

Exactly, and we can get even more granular than that. Did people miss the whole rationale behind M+ gear swapping restrictions and gating soulbinds and abilities behind covenants? The concern was that people would gear swap for trash and bosses, and for raiding that they would swap soulbinds and covenant abilities to be optimal for each boss. People have been doing micro-optimizations for years now. Even in BfA and Legion, many people had multiple sets of Azerite traits and Legendaries with optimal gear sets for M+ and Raiding during their respective expansion so they could swap to the most optimal setups. The idea that now, magically, only with the new talent system there is incentivize for optimizing builds is silly, especially when the new system seems to have the ability to create preset builds. This isn't a case of "I have to manually update all my talent setups each time", which would be cumbersome, it is a "I have to setup my builds once and then can quick swap when I want to use it".

Really if anything it is about the customization being faster since you mostly will care about your talent setup and to a lesser extent your gear instead of having to take into account things like Covenants/soulbinds/conduits or Essences. I am sure we will get addons to let us import talent setups and heck we might even get full talent packs with addons that prompt you to switch your build before each boss or before starting a key (optimised per boss or per Affix & Dungeon)

[Magical Mudcrab]

Really if anything it is about the customization being faster since you mostly will care about your talent setup and to a lesser extent your gear instead of having to take into account things like Covenants/soulbinds/conduits or Essences. I am sure we will get addons to let us import talent setups and heck we might even get full talent packs with addons that prompt you to switch your build before each boss or before starting a key (optimised per boss or per Affix & Dungeon)

The one thing I really hope they do is that they intentionally add in suboptimal, but fun build ideas as well. One I mentioned that was a bit tongue-in-cheek earlier was an all-imps Demonology Warlock build. Imagine if you could swap CDs like your Dreadstalkers and Demon Commander for more Imps, and then could empower your Imp to be your static pet instead of your Felguard. It would be fundamentally a dumb idea, but the idea of a person running around with 40 Imps in a raid is just, conceptually, funny to me.

[Nymrohd]

The one thing I really hope they do is that they intentionally add in suboptimal, but fun build ideas as well. One I mentioned that was a bit tongue-in-cheek earlier was an all-imps Demonology Warlock build. Imagine if you could swap CDs like your Dreadstalkers and Demon Commander for more Imps, and then could empower your Imp to be your static pet instead of your Felguard. It would be fundamentally a dumb idea, but the idea of a person running around with 40 Imps in a raid is just, conceptually, funny to me.

It will be interesting to see how different performance will be between the optimal and worst builts. There are specs where the best build can be over 30% stronger than the worst built (and even close to 50% in some cases). Imo that delta is just unacceptable. Suboptimal but fun options should exist. Ofc the problem is that the new system will add so much variance and potential synergies that the delta between good and bad builts can go much further. While one should of course be rewarded for making good choices, I think there should be a limit to how bad a built can be.

[jeezusisacasual]

It really will not be the same regardless though. Many specific talent choices made by writers come with the presumption of a certain level of play. The best talent setup for someone who can absolutely optimise cooldown usage per encounter and max out silent movement could actually end up giving far worse results than a somewhat less optimal but more forgiving talent setup for someone who might mess up movement and time a few cooldowns wrong, especially during progress when such things are inevitable outside RWF raiding (they are inevitable there as well they just spam so many attempts that they will get to that point faster). There have always been cases were a talent or conduit is very close to top but actually makes the spec easier to play and for the vast majority of players that should be the top pick; yet sims will tell you to pick the other one. The better writers will tell you to pick either and explain the difference IF you actually read the entire article and not just copy the list.
That's not even counting M+ were many of the changes in talent set ups have to do with utility, not throughput and may well change by affix, dungeon and group composition.

And really how are they going to tell you are doing it wrong? It's easy to inspect someone's talents now. It will be much more time consuming to do it with the new trees. Your raid leader might be able to do so after the raid but assuming they are not an asshole, you WANT them to look through them and make suggestions.

Oh before i go forward i barely raid and once the raid is defeated on Heroic i stop bothering with it as i enjoy the pick up and play of mythic plus and hate the scheduling requirement of raiding, but i want more customization in the playerbase. Not every warrior should be Fury / Bastion but i would like to see for instance a Necrolord Arms and what not for an example if that makes sense. If they can nail the balance with respect to raid vs mythic plus vs pvp then i will have some more hope and to be fair they have been good overall this expansion excluding the opening outliers of the expansion.

More choices is always better but i think the community will be a bit to hard push in that direction. Hopefully the community wont create an auditing addon that checks for them either which i would assume they might.

[[Apok]]

Oh before i go forward i barely raid and once the raid is defeated on Heroic i stop bothering with it as i enjoy the pick up and play of mythic plus and hate the scheduling requirement of raiding, but i want more customization in the playerbase. Not every warrior should be Fury / Bastion but i would like to see for instance a Necrolord Arms and what not for an example if that makes sense. If they can nail the balance with respect to raid vs mythic plus vs pvp then i will have some more hope and to be fair they have been good overall this expansion excluding the opening outliers of the expansion.

More choices is always better but i think the community will be a bit to hard push in that direction. Hopefully the community wont create an auditing addon that checks for them either which i would assume they might.

There will always be something that is more optimal for certain things and that's not really the fault of the community

There's nothing stopping you from playing ehat you want in the way you want.

[fenixazul]

In my opinion, Blizzard should stop hearing people that want Wow to be like the classic times, they are not going to return to retail since they have now their classic wow.

[Lathspell]

There will always be something that is more optimal for certain things and that's not really the fault of the community

There's nothing stopping you from playing ehat you want in the way you want.

Yeah with more free form builds it will and should be absolutely possible to make a build that downright sucks, otherwise the talents won't really have any depth if you will always be within 5% or something of the max output even if you try to handicap yourself with a bad build.

[Loveliest]

Aye - one of the stronger AoE legendaries for Ret is just one of the secondary powers from Ashbringer back in Legion - and when it comes down to it, that was just a nerfed version of a WoD talent. The same goes for Resto Shaman legendaries.

As paladin tank, we got the cool things rolled into our spec after each expansion. Like the effect of the Legendary legs. Here's hoping divine toll finds its way into the tree, because I love it.

[Omians]

Well its not going to be the same as the old talents. Not going to have a bunch of + stats instead filled with Passive Mechanic changes and Clickable abilities.

hope they finish up the previews and release them to the public soon

[saixilein]

I saw those trees and immediately thought, "Oh no, button bloat incoming?". Granted, I was one of the weirdos who LIKED the "great prune" in Legion.

the prune was in wod and it was bad. especially for pvp and doing anything else then your DPS/HPS Rotation in PvE Raidbossfights.

[Nymrohd]

As paladin tank, we got the cool things rolled into our spec after each expansion. Like the effect of the Legendary legs. Here's hoping divine toll finds its way into the tree, because I love it.

Honestly the tankadin tree is one of the few were almost every talent is worthwhile. Having to choose between Holy Shield and Blessed Hammer or First Avenger and Crusader's Judgment makes me sad I hope I can at least have both of the first two in the new tree.

[Kalisandra]

the prune was in wod and it was bad. especially for pvp and doing anything else then your DPS/HPS Rotation in PvE Raidbossfights.

Some specs were pruned hard in WoD, others got hit in Legion, and some got both.

[KallioFendassol]

As a guy who started on Cataclysm, I will need to re-learn how to use the old talents style, maybe will not be the same as we already know.

[Selah]

So, after seeing the talents, I do have a few thoughts.

First one is, we can't give better feedback as a community unless we see them all. I say that because it's very apparent to me from looking at these that the Druid is way more rigid in its ability to allow you to mix and match your talents than DK by quite a bit. I easily identified three or four unique builds for DK from just the class talent tree, let alone the spec trees. Whereas Druid is very much "here is your spec and you have to go straight down this tree before anything else." So, it's hard to have a good picture of how well executed the talent trees really are.

One big thing that frustrated me was the arbitrary restrictions on being able to go further in the tree until after you've spent 8 and 20 points into the tree on the whole. It didn't change or stop any builds for me, it just irritated me. That restriction serves no purpose, the big restriction that makes the builds unique is the fact that you have to follow paths.

On the whole though, this is the first time I've actually been interested in DF as an expansion. The trees actually look interesting and fun. And the fact we can save builds and just swap them out is a big deal.

[Polygons]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the new talent system, it's meant to return the feeling of satisisfaction you get when you level up and get to spend talent points. Probably due to the success of classic remastered and Diablo 2.

[cocomen2]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the new talent system, it's meant to return the feeling of satisisfaction you get when you level up and get to spend talent points. Probably due to the success of classic remastered and Diablo 2.

Big talent tree ... yeah i like it, but you saw what they showed us today? ....same OLD SHIT->JUST OLD TALENTS PLACED IN FORM OF TREE.


All hope to get new shiny stuff died.