1. #53101
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    You wanna know whats going wrong. You wanna IMPROVE.
    SOME Players want to play that way. And that is their prerogative.
    Most players do not give a hoot about challenges or "improving".

    I agree that it sucks to play blindly. I wouldn't call myself hardcore in any way but I still like to see what I am doing.
    Frankly put though: on a personal level, FF-XIV is pretty easy, even in savage. It's infinitely more important to play the mechanics cleanly than it is to do ERMAGAAAWD-DPS™.
    The difficulty comes from having 8 people perform well enough for 10 minutes to kill the boss.

    Most parsing is for parsing's own sake, comparing your virtual private parts to those of others. If that's fun to you: knock yourself out, personally I can't be arsed to perform beyond what is demanded by the actual content. I have better places to put that kind of energy than a video game.

  2. #53102
    I am Murloc!
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    Personally it doesn't matter what MMO I'm playing, I just want to know what I sign up for when I join one. Sure it sucks when damage is low but when I'm doing a dungeon roulette it's just a washed bag whether you get a good group or not. Worst case scenario when I'm playing my DRK, it makes the experience a couple minutes longer at max, hardly something for me to get annoyed at. Same with the normal raids in the game. They typically aren't hard enough for me to get mad at, nor if it's a new release to rage out. Worst case scenario since I played some in HW then in ShB/EW is that a trial or a boss takes several attempts max. Considering there's no enrage timer on normal mode trials/raids and no run back, I just honestly don't care.

    The only time I truly get annoyed in FF14 is when people are just straight up not present and/or are effectively AFK. It's just disrespectful and is the prevailing reason why I don't engage in the 24 man raids at all aside from Bozja when it was relevant during ShB, or if it's the ARR ones because they take so little time you can barely tell. I have a personal vendetta against the NIER raids in general because I thought they were stupid, but they were made even worse by the rampant AFKs and people purposely jumping off the side killing themselves over and over again. All in all if I could go back in time, I wish I could get those hours of my life back TBH.

    Other than that it's just people signing up for savage or extreme trials in the group finder without knowing what the fuck they're doing, or are playing their job so badly that it's fairly obvious. There are literally lots of progression groups in the group finders that are generally tailored to your needs. If you want to go in blind, go in blind. Don't join groups that are half way through the encounter if you don't know the encounter, that's just awful to everybody else around you (if you're going to do that, be sure you actually studied the encounter enough to get by, but also don't be surprised if people remake the group around you). Otherwise, just join a static and be done with it.

    Most of my experience in hard content is limited to extreme trials and the first 3 bosses on savage, all in group finder because I don't have that many people to play with. People can be passive aggressive as fuck and it shows, and sometimes people are a bit too 'ancy' on remaking groups if somebody fucks up a mechanic early thinking that the person in the group doesn't know the mechanic (which is dumb, because people don't play perfect all of the time). But that's generally not the norm. What's even further from the norm is people remaking the group around somebody because the throughput they produce is far too low. While doing bosses in ShB and EW (when they were new), I've only seen this happen like 2 to 3 times over probably 100 groups that I pugged content with.

    Basically the above comes down to this in FF14. As long as you're trying and know the mechanics, DPS and throughput rarely matter. Aside from the first few month or so when something is new, I've just never come into many situations where the group I was in reformed around somebody. Normally peoples damage or throughput sucks because they're dying or don't know mechanics. The amount of people that do mechanics but still suck at the former is pretty rare, and outside of when raids are just starting out that normally doesn't matter either.

    Parsing and damage meters are fine. For FF14 in general it's still a useful tool, especially for statics and anybody doing the difficult content. I think a lot of these discussions is overblown because from my experience, it's normally people sucking at mechanics that drag groups down, rather than their individual DPS (although this normally goes hand in hand because of how the game is designed).

  3. #53103
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    I'm not going to respond to your whole post but this is totally on point.
    I didn't expect anyone to address the whole thing - I was trying to help both sides of the argument see the others point of view. I seem to have failed in that respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Your definition of cheating is way too narrow. Cheating is not just about automation.

    You are combining brain power to do a challenge you are supposed to do yourself.
    You will have an advantage over someone who does not have a GF sitting behind him, feeding him information.

    If you ever were in a raid with a competent raid leader and in a raid w/o one, you'd realize what a tremendous amount of difference such individual can make. Despite the fact, that such a raid leader does not "automate" anything for the individual player.
    Can you explain what the difference is between having someone in the room with you feeding you information and a Raid Leader calling out information over Discord? I appreciate that neither one automate the process, but they're still keeping track of mechanics for you that you might not be watching for yourself.

    What if I were to put a sticky note on my monitor with the order mechanics came in, would that be any different to having them being called out? What if my RL has one and is reading out from it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    I wish WoW would do more of this. Catering to the hardcore and pushing people to always perform has caused the game to become very toxic.
    I'm of the opinion that WoW catering to casuals is what's making it more toxic. Their crusade against raid logging forces people into casual content who really have no business being there. Casual content like Covenants is a huge headache for raiders like me who're more or less obligated to get maxed out with all of them. Tier sets were responsable for a lot of this too. I even had to do LFR to get 4 set before they released the forge. Don't get me started on personal loot and split raiding.

    You've got to slog through the shit to do the challenging content. It's not fun, it's not engaging and it's not even remotely entertaining, but you've got to do it anyway. A friend of mine calls it "Mythic Tax". You've got to pay them if you want to raid.

    Raiders just want to get it over with ASAP and the casual content bloating the process just drags it out far longer than it needs to be. Changes made to the benefit of casual players have been extremely damaging to raiders. It just breeds resentment and is why people lash out.

  4. #53104
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I didn't expect anyone to address the whole thing - I was trying to help both sides of the argument see the others point of view. I seem to have failed in that respect.
    It's always hard to get different types of player to engage with each other without causing issues.

  5. #53105
    Lol, WoW catering too much to casuals. I can't even believe some people actually, unironically think that.

  6. #53106
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Lol, WoW catering too much to casuals. I can't even believe some people actually, unironically think that.
    If it wouldn't, the game would be dead. Like legit dead.
    ANY game that sells millions in the first days/weeks and with an active playerbase above like 100k daily or whatever, is aimed towards casual players first and foremost
    Games that primarily appeal to a hardcore crowd are INCREDIBLY niche or straight up dead. Wildstar wanted to cater to the "hardcore" crowd and look where it's now.
    Casuals make the money. AAA devs know that and will do anything to keep them/have them buy. Why else do you think they added 3 seperate difficulties and flexible raid sizes? To keep casual players engaged.

  7. #53107
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    If it wouldn't, the game would be dead. Like legit dead.
    ANY game that sells millions in the first days/weeks and with an active playerbase above like 100k daily or whatever, is aimed towards casual players first and foremost
    Games that primarily appeal to a hardcore crowd are INCREDIBLY niche or straight up dead. Wildstar wanted to cater to the "hardcore" crowd and look where it's now.
    Casuals make the money. AAA devs know that and will do anything to keep them/have them buy. Why else do you think they added 3 seperate difficulties and flexible raid sizes? To keep casual players engaged.
    Most casuals have already quit and moved over to other games, they've been seriously neglected since Ion took over, more and more as time went by.
    They really need to look at the design philosophies of FF14 for example and even bits of what Lost Ark is doing went it comes to giving casual players worthwhile progression to work towards.

  8. #53108
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I'm of the opinion that WoW catering to casuals is what's making it more toxic. Their crusade against raid logging forces people into casual content who really have no business being there. Casual content like Covenants is a huge headache for raiders like me who're more or less obligated to get maxed out with all of them. Tier sets were responsable for a lot of this too. I even had to do LFR to get 4 set before they released the forge. Don't get me started on personal loot and split raiding.

    You've got to slog through the shit to do the challenging content. It's not fun, it's not engaging and it's not even remotely entertaining, but you've got to do it anyway. A friend of mine calls it "Mythic Tax". You've got to pay them if you want to raid.

    Raiders just want to get it over with ASAP and the casual content bloating the process just drags it out far longer than it needs to be. Changes made to the benefit of casual players have been extremely damaging to raiders. It just breeds resentment and is why people lash out.
    You do this to be competitive with a different guild in a *race*, not because you "want to raid".
    Big difference.
    If you wouldn't give a shit, you could raid mythic without doing any of that, just "less successful" than the other guilds and players you don't interact with anyway. If the group forces you to do this it's the group forcing you, not the game.

    If the game has become toxic due to that, it's because the "hardcore players" are toxic (but it hasn't... so it's a moot point anyway) - and that's the reason why WoW just shouldn't give a damn about them anyway. I always thought that way even when I was going for server first and were guild hopping whenever I was clearly dealing more DPS than others.

    However an undefined quantity of those "hardcore players" just don't give a fuck as well and just do LFR and don't care about how bad the others are, or they don't do LFR and don't care what others do or have just because they did.
    99% of the players will not see themselves being gated behind gear/4p/legendaries.
    There is nothing stopping me (other than myself) from going into Mythic raids right now, not even the legendary crafting system. If you find like-minded players, you won't have any problems. And if no one wants to do it, why do they do it? Isn't that a self created cycle of hatred?

    Either way, the cause is not the casual or hardcore content anyway.
    LFR dropping tier sets would be fine for that kind of "greedy" player if there is some kind of limit and guarantee to how many pieces you get or what pieces you get and from where. (after all, it's FOMO causing that kind of feeling anyway)
    They could be a guaranteed reward after killing certain bosses or getting a currency. So it'd be wrong to blame hardcore players or casual players. The one to blame is Blizzard for artificially trying to get your playtime up.
    The fact that they didn't release the forge on day 1 or week 2 or basically "earlier" is proof to that. They want you to feel bad about it.


    I don't think raiders have to complain about anything in this day and age though.
    You can just log in and raid and log out, everything you need for raiding is basically passive income.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-30 at 02:53 PM.

  9. #53109
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    As previously stated, let's drop the rolling "WoW vs. FF14" argument and re-focus the conversation FF14 itself.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #53110
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    ACT and fflogs are an enormous advantage when you're using them in difficult content. Even ignoring triggers which are a whole separate issue, logs let you see things like exactly what happened during a wipe, whether you had mitigation up in time for that one raid wide that someone died to, they make it easier to figure out exactly how much time there is in between mechanics. There are real benefits to having this information available to you. Parsing is just a minigame people play when progress is over, the main benefits of act and logs are helping clears happen in the first place. These benefits are irrelevant in dungeons because dungeons don't have challenging mechanics or tight tuning.
    For sure, agreed entirely there. My point I was trying to make was that, what does this advantage give you? It gives you a shorter learning curve to your goal right. While it's true that roulette content doesn't have challenging mechanics or tight tuning, the same benefit is present. I'm not so sure we can just say it's irrelevant. I don't see why on average players being better informed/better is worse. I remember I was hunting for a specific piece of gear from sunken city of skalla back in whatever expac that was. I ran the dungeon back to back 5 times. My clear times were from 12 minutes to almost 40 minutes depending on who I matched with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Your definition of cheating is way too narrow. Cheating is not just about automation.

    You are combining brain power to do a challenge you are supposed to do yourself.
    You will have an advantage over someone who does not have a GF sitting behind him, feeding him information.

    If you ever were in a raid with a competent raid leader and in a raid w/o one, you'd realize what a tremendous amount of difference such individual can make. Despite the fact, that such a raid leader does not "automate" anything for the individual player.
    Where does it say anywhere that you can't have someone watching your stream calling stuff out, or someone standing behind you, or a post it with the timeline printed on it (or up on the other monitor?). How is any of this cheating? Nothing says you HAVE to do this yourself...

    We have to draw the line somewhere and frankly, automation is the best fit, but even then most automation isn't cheating so it stands that anything less than that certainly isn't IMO.

  11. #53111
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Lol, WoW catering too much to casuals. I can't even believe some people actually, unironically think that.
    Personally, I'd be happy with WoW if it was just raids and dungeon content with nothing else on offer.

    I'm not going to suggest thats what WoW should be. But I do think that they put too much emphasis on casual content that I have no interest in, and the way they make it mandatory too makes it feel almost like a punishment at times.

    I don't think asking for the game to give me more of the things I like and less of the things I don't is an unreasonable stance to take. I'm sure other people would prefer more story content, or more transmog, housing etc at the cost of raids and dungeons. I won't ask other people to agree with my ideal version of the game, as long as we can agree to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    If the game has become toxic due to that, it's because the "hardcore players" are toxic (but it hasn't... so it's a moot point anyway) - and that's the reason why WoW just shouldn't give a damn about them anyway.
    Which is why the game seems to be more toxic than it really is. It's mixing two groups of players with entirely different goals and motiviations and expecting things to work out. There are inevitably going to be clashes.

    If you made an M+ group with an M+ Super Star who wants to do every Wo skip in the book and +3 the key, a PvPer who's there for a trinket, a tank who hasn't done the dungeon before and a healer who just wants to get the key done no matter what for their chest. You've got a group that's going to run into a lot of friction. It might not explode into outright toxicity, but without anyone to smooth over the rough patches it could end up being a miserable run all round.

    If you get the M+ Super Star in a group of like minded players they're going to blitz through the key and have a great time. If you get the tank and healer in a more laid back group they're going to have a much better time. The PvPer would probably like to be anywhere else and still be able to get good gear for their playstyle. Nobody is well served by the current set up and everybody deserves better.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You can just log in and raid and log out, everything you need for raiding is basically passive income.
    Not quite. Take 9.2, you had to complete the story for the Legendary belt and then grind out the rep for the Unity Legendary. Upgrading Legendaries themselves needed either a significant gold or time investment to get them to max rank.

    There was also the usual cycle of conduit upgrades you needed from M+, time limited access to some really powerful gear with Legion Timewalking M+, and just general higher iLevel drops you needed. Despite Blizzard saying they were going to "Let gear be gear" they've also have changed the gearing model completely with each major patch.

    I agree that from about the mid point of a patch you can more or less just raid log, but it takes a lot of work to get to that point in the first place - Thats the Mythic Tax. You've got to invest a lot of time in getting to the point where you can raid log. Admittedly 9.2 has been softer than most patches in that regard, but it's an exception rather than the rule. Most have had a much steeper time investment thats needed.

  12. #53112
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    My point I was trying to make was that, what does this advantage give you?
    In some cases addons are the only thing making a mechanic reasonable. Having mitigation abilities that only work on magic damage when the game gives you no clear indicator for damage types is really bad design. Having mechanics that depend on durations of debuffs on the whole group when you can't see other party members debuff durations is really bad design. Dungeons just don't present this kind of challenge to people, there is no unavoidable damage in any dungeon that will one shot people if not sufficiently mitigated so it doesn't matter if you know what is magic damage and what isn't. Nobody has ever used logs to figure out when they can apply a tank lb to an npc in a dungeon, it just doesn't matter.

  13. #53113
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Where does it say anywhere that you can't have someone watching your stream calling stuff out, or someone standing behind you, or a post it with the timeline printed on it (or up on the other monitor?). How is any of this cheating? Nothing says you HAVE to do this yourself...

    We have to draw the line somewhere and frankly, automation is the best fit, but even then most automation isn't cheating so it stands that anything less than that certainly isn't IMO.
    Console players CAN'T use ACT triggers.
    That's a FACT.

    So unless SE/Sony patches it so that they can, every PC player that uses ACT triggers gains an unfair advantage over a console player.
    That is, by definition, cheating.

    Stop squirming, stop beating around the bush, stop coming up with completely moronic comparisons.
    You KNOW the game is intended to be played w/o derpy triggers.

    ACT in itself is not something I consider cheating, because it is enough if one person in the raid uploads to FF-Logs.
    Then the console player can also analyze and improve his performance just the same.

  14. #53114
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post

    If you made an M+ group with an M+ Super Star who wants to do every Wo skip in the book and +3 the key, a PvPer who's there for a trinket, a tank who hasn't done the dungeon before and a healer who just wants to get the key done no matter what for their chest. You've got a group that's going to run into a lot of friction. It might not explode into outright toxicity, but without anyone to smooth over the rough patches it could end up being a miserable run all round.

    If you get the M+ Super Star in a group of like minded players they're going to blitz through the key and have a great time. If you get the tank and healer in a more laid back group they're going to have a much better time. The PvPer would probably like to be anywhere else and still be able to get good gear for their playstyle. Nobody is well served by the current set up and everybody deserves better.
    But you were pointing in the wrong direction when you say dropping tier items in LFR is a problem etc..
    It's Blizzard not wanting to give everyone what they would like, because if you participate in lots of stuff, you will also play more often and that's good for their shareholders.

    The problem in this new case isn't that there is stuff to get for your content outside of the content you want to do.
    The problem is that you can't get that stuff unless you do that specific content.

    And we have more than enough people defending that kind of bullshit.
    As you can see, for example, with people "gatekeeping" mythic quality gear with bullshit reasons like "you don't need mythic gear to do worldquests" - as if that is even the reason why people doing world quests want to get better gear.
    Same thing with LFR Tier Sets.

    There are ways to make both sides happy with currencies, limits and less RNG.
    Guaranteed Tier Set(currency) drops. A character limit that prevents you from getting that currency in LFR if you have already gotten it in Normal/Heroic/Mythic (that has been a thing in the past btw for the BFA legendary)

    Stuff like that.
    Valor is a good thing to buy specific M+ trinkets or PvP trinkets with
    Every WQ/LFR/Normal/Heroic/M(+) piece should be upgradeable with Valor from ilvl 150 up to ilvl 272 (without a rating requirement). etc etc.
    Just limit the most exclusive last 1-3% upgrades to the specific content it drops in. That's enough. Everything else? Make it available for everyone.

    Just like Destiny 2, where it almost doesn't matter what kind of content you do, you are very close to the optimal setup.


    But I just realized, I've went too far off-topic.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-31 at 09:10 AM.

  15. #53115
    https://twitter.com/FF_XIV_EN/status...91334519197696

    One week till we go back to Norvrandt! If we don't see Hildebrand and Dulla Chai up to some stupid bullshit i will be shocked.

  16. #53116
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Console players CAN'T use ACT triggers.
    That's a FACT.

    So unless SE/Sony patches it so that they can, every PC player that uses ACT triggers gains an unfair advantage over a console player.
    That is, by definition, cheating.

    Stop squirming, stop beating around the bush, stop coming up with completely moronic comparisons.
    You KNOW the game is intended to be played w/o derpy triggers.
    But then we just circle back to non-competitive PVE and what is an advantage? Is it a realized advantage or a fictional one? If Joe Schmo that I don't even know exists kills a boss using triggers am I negatively impacted in ANY way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    In some cases addons are the only thing making a mechanic reasonable. Having mitigation abilities that only work on magic damage when the game gives you no clear indicator for damage types is really bad design. Having mechanics that depend on durations of debuffs on the whole group when you can't see other party members debuff durations is really bad design. Dungeons just don't present this kind of challenge to people, there is no unavoidable damage in any dungeon that will one shot people if not sufficiently mitigated so it doesn't matter if you know what is magic damage and what isn't. Nobody has ever used logs to figure out when they can apply a tank lb to an npc in a dungeon, it just doesn't matter.
    To be fair though this example is an if then statement, and we both know you ALWAYS assume it's a magic damage thing first in testing. If it's not it's obviously physical so not a huge advantage here. At least in all my prog that's how we've always done it with great success.

  17. #53117
    Have you seen the amount of physical damage in dragonsong ultimate?

  18. #53118
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Console players CAN'T use ACT triggers.
    That's a FACT.

    So unless SE/Sony patches it so that they can, every PC player that uses ACT triggers gains an unfair advantage over a console player.
    That is, by definition, cheating.

    Stop squirming, stop beating around the bush, stop coming up with completely moronic comparisons.
    You KNOW the game is intended to be played w/o derpy triggers.

    ACT in itself is not something I consider cheating, because it is enough if one person in the raid uploads to FF-Logs.
    Then the console player can also analyze and improve his performance just the same.
    ESO allows addons, and is on both console and PC (granted not cross platform). As someone that used to play on PC and now on Xbox, I don’t really the miss “advantage” I had.

  19. #53119
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Console players CAN'T use ACT triggers.
    That's a FACT.

    So unless SE/Sony patches it so that they can, every PC player that uses ACT triggers gains an unfair advantage over a console player.
    That is, by definition, cheating.

    Stop squirming, stop beating around the bush, stop coming up with completely moronic comparisons.
    You KNOW the game is intended to be played w/o derpy triggers.

    ACT in itself is not something I consider cheating, because it is enough if one person in the raid uploads to FF-Logs.
    Then the console player can also analyze and improve his performance just the same.
    Of course they can use triggers. You can run a bot on discord that will call out the triggers as if you had it on your device. If the bar is the same for FFLOGS and only one person needing to have access for it to be okay, then that seems like it would pass the same test.

  20. #53120
    Welp second lottery, lost the first when its a couple of people, lost the second when it was nearly 50.

    Meanwhile almost all the free company housing wards are 50-80% empty. Went and had a look and they all had zero bids.

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