STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[NineSpine]

you still need something to sweeten progression. If it's not a weekly nerf and not gear upgrades then what how do you do it?

Imagine if all mythic content was ilvl locked, challenge mode style, and then existed as evergreen content with cosmetic rewards that people could go back and get five years later for bragging rights. I'm not necessarily advocating this particular solution, but there are big upsides you could get from alternative designs.

Frankly, you could delete mythic tomorrow, maybe tune the last couple of bosses of heroic a bit harder, and the game would be fine. Mythic raids are extreme fringe content, and the fact that we hem and haw about doing anything except designing the entire game around mythic raiding is silly.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure i get this. You can effectively finish a character with <2 months of vaults and valor upgrades, unless you mean absolutely 100% the best gear in every slot which has never been achievable quickly even in the classic era.

I didn't raid on my main last patch and I was still 252 3+ months before the patch ended. I took those months off and it was great.

I haven't raided this tier either and I have 3 characters at 275 already. This is the easiest it has been to gear up multiple characters without doing chores in....ever?

The classic era was very distinctly different in the entire design so this isn't a good comparison to make. The model of vanilla was that you increased ilvl to unlock new content. The model of retail is that you increase ilvl to unlock harder difficulty levels of the same content. Both of these have very, very different implications for how the rewards feel.

As far as having an endpoint now, the problem is that even if you want to say "What is the best gear for the content I like to do?" the answer is extremely muddy because of the vault. The best gear for a normal raider is above normal raid level, due to the vault. The best gear for someone that wants to do +5 keys is above what drops from +5 keys due to the vault. The M+ system in general makes an end goal that is anything below +15 very muddy. This isn't like classic where you can say "I don't like raiding" and your BiS list is clear and obvious.

[Celement]

Imagine if all mythic content was ilvl locked, challenge mode style, and then existed as evergreen content with cosmetic rewards that people could go back and get five years later for bragging rights. I'm not necessarily advocating this particular solution, but there are big upsides you could get from alternative designs.

Frankly, you could delete mythic tomorrow, maybe tune the last couple of bosses of heroic a bit harder, and the game would be fine. Mythic raids are extreme fringe content, and the fact that we hem and haw about doing anything except designing the entire game around mythic raiding is silly.

I think the problem is the reverse. WoW thrives as a competitive game always had and likely always will. Over the years though its turned into the final boss of fable 2...

Press a button watch the boss die. It leads to there being no sense of progression or achievement. WoW needs to give players a hero's journey but offer more then just the destination.

If you deleted everything easier then a mythic 10 you would have the building blocks to a renewed and rejuvenated wow.

Just cut out chore content and bam your set. There is an argument mythic is over tuned but wow needs to raise the floorboards before lowering the roof.

[NineSpine]

I think the problem is the reverse. WoW thrives as a competitive game always had and likely always will. Over the years though its turned into the final boss of fable 2...

Press a button watch the boss die. It leads to there being no sense of progression or achievement. WoW needs to give players a hero's journey but offer most just the destination.

If you deleted everything easier then a mythic 10 you would have the building blocks to a renewed and rejuvenated wow.

Just cut out chore content and bam your set. There is an argument mythic is over tuned but wow needs to raise the floorboards before lowering the roof.

It's clearly not thriving with this hyper-focus on "competitive" content.

Most players do not want to do brick wall difficulty content. They just don't. It's that simple. If they did, they would do it. I appreciate that some people enjoy that content. I enjoy that type of content in Destiny 2. I like doing crazy challenge runs of Souls games, but I am cognizant enough to know that just because I like those things doesn't mean everyone else does, and it is incredibly narrow minded and short sighted to think that if you can just force everyone into the brick wall content they will love it. They won't.

[Necromantic]

Frankly, you could delete mythic tomorrow, maybe tune the last couple of bosses of heroic a bit harder, and the game would be fine. Mythic raids are extreme fringe content, and the fact that we hem and haw about doing anything except designing the entire game around mythic raiding is silly.

The game was in the best shape and had more subscribers before mythic raiding was a thing.

There are more bad players than good players in any game. Nothing like highlighting to players just how far they won't go!

[Tyris Flare]

As far as having an endpoint now, the problem is that even if you want to say "What is the best gear for the content I like to do?" the answer is extremely muddy because of the vault. The best gear for a normal raider is above normal raid level, due to the vault. The best gear for someone that wants to do +5 keys is above what drops from +5 keys due to the vault. The M+ system in general makes an end goal that is anything below +15 very muddy. This isn't like classic where you can say "I don't like raiding" and your BiS list is clear and obvious.

Okay but there's no valor cap, you can farm valor from +2s if you wanted, and you only need 2k rating to upgrade to 272. Note that 2500 is keystone master, which is roughly all 15s in Fort and Tyr. You can get 2k by only doing 10s, which are beatable without any special dungeon knowledge or even interrupting any mob ability.

Half the stuff in this thread seems written by people who are still arguing about Shadowlands season 1, but we are in season 3 and it is a very different game. You can get heroic raid gear and tier without ever interacting with another person, and you can get mythic or near mythic gear by pushing W through a few dungeons per week.

It is a fraction of the effort required to get the same gear in any previous iteration of the game, especially classic.

There are plenty of other things to talk about but let's at least be on the same planet when discussing what the game actually is right now. Mythic raiding has literally never been less rewarding.

[NineSpine]

Okay but there's no valor cap, you can farm valor from +2s if you wanted, and you only need 2k rating to upgrade to 272. Note that 2500 is keystone master, which is roughly all 15s in Fort and Tyr. You can get 2k by only doing 10s, which are beatable without any special dungeon knowledge or even interrupting any mob ability.

Half the stuff in this thread seems written by people who are still arguing about Shadowlands season 1, but we are in season 3 and it is a very different game. You can get heroic raid gear and tier without ever interacting with another person, and you can get mythic or near mythic gear by pushing W through a few dungeons per week.

It is a fraction of the effort required to get the same gear in any previous iteration of the game, especially classic.

There are plenty of other things to talk about but let's at least be on the same planet when discussing what the game actually is right now. Mythic raiding has literally never been less rewarding.

Vanilla and TBC did not have multiple difficulty settings, so it is a moot point. You got gear to unlock more content to do. It's a totally different model and incomparable.

The essay you just wrote on how to get your gear from M+ is a demonstration of the problem, not a refutation of it.

[Celement]

It's clearly not thriving with this hyper-focus on "competitive" content.

Most players do not want to do brick wall difficulty content. They just don't. It's that simple. If they did, they would do it. I appreciate that some people enjoy that content. I enjoy that type of content in Destiny 2. I like doing crazy challenge runs of Souls games, but I am cognizant enough to know that just because I like those things doesn't mean everyone else does, and it is incredibly narrow minded and short sighted to think that if you can just force everyone into the brick wall content they will love it. They won't.

I don't see it doing well with the movie mode zero progression beyond difficulties myself.

Only phone and facebook games thrive with that model it seems.

[NineSpine]

I don't see it doing well with the movie mode zero progression beyond difficulties myself.

Only phone and facebook games thrive with that model it seems.

You think that if we start listing the most successful and beloved games of all time, we are going to have a list of brick-wall challenging games that are known for requiring weeks of progression through brutally difficult content?

[Echocho]

It's clearly not thriving with this hyper-focus on "competitive" content.

Most players do not want to do brick wall difficulty content. They just don't. It's that simple. If they did, they would do it. I appreciate that some people enjoy that content. I enjoy that type of content in Destiny 2. I like doing crazy challenge runs of Souls games, but I am cognizant enough to know that just because I like those things doesn't mean everyone else does, and it is incredibly narrow minded and short sighted to think that if you can just force everyone into the brick wall content they will love it. They won't.

Especially not when all the casuals quit and took their voices with them, and they weren't the most vocal bunch to begin with.

But at least the loud vocal minority get to play the game that they want to play even if it costs them millions of normal players.

[ellieg]

Okay but there's no valor cap, you can farm valor from +2s if you wanted, and you only need 2k rating to upgrade to 272. Note that 2500 is keystone master, which is roughly all 15s in Fort and Tyr. You can get 2k by only doing 10s, which are beatable without any special dungeon knowledge or even interrupting any mob ability.

Half the stuff in this thread seems written by people who are still arguing about Shadowlands season 1, but we are in season 3 and it is a very different game. You can get heroic raid gear and tier without ever interacting with another person, and you can get mythic or near mythic gear by pushing W through a few dungeons per week.

It is a fraction of the effort required to get the same gear in any previous iteration of the game, especially classic.

There are plenty of other things to talk about but let's at least be on the same planet when discussing what the game actually is right now. Mythic raiding has literally never been less rewarding.

Hes not going to be happy until his blind paraplegic grandma can get bis. His caveat will be that itll just take her slightly longer by doing literally any content. Thats great and works for other games but he cannot accept that wow doesn't have to do this. Then he will cry about sub numbers and tell us to enjoy our dying game, which we will.

[NineSpine]

Especially not when all the casuals quit and took their voices with them, and they weren't the most vocal bunch to begin with.

But at least the loud vocal minority get to play the game that they want to play even if it costs them millions of normal players.

There is a reason that expansions keep getting smaller and patches keep getting spread out more. The game clearly doesn't have the budget that it used to, because it drove out so many people who wanted to do things besides bash their face against mythic bosses.

[Celement]

The game was in the best shape and had more subscribers before mythic raiding was a thing.

There are more bad players than good players in any game. Nothing like highlighting to players just how far they won't go!

I mean if you wanna use terrible logic there were subs back with tiers and no lfr or freebie dungeons.

[Necromantic]

Hes not going to be happy until his blind paraplegic grandma can get bis. His caveat will be that itll just take her slightly longer by doing literally any content. Thats great and works for other games but he cannot accept that wow doesn't have to do this. Then he will cry about sub numbers and tell us to enjoy our dying game, which we will.

No reason to be hyperbolic.

Casuals make up the bulk of any game and WoW has grown less and less casual friendly.

[NineSpine]

Hes not going to be happy until his blind paraplegic grandma can get bis. His caveat will be that itll just take her slightly longer by doing literally any content. Thats great and works for other games but he cannot accept that wow doesn't have to do this. Then he will cry about sub numbers and tell us to enjoy our dying game, which we will.

I'll be happy when the game is fun again for people who want to do something besides brick wall content.

[Necromantic]

I mean if you wanna use terrible logic there were subs back with tiers and no lfr or freebie dungeons.

There were LFR tier gear, etc back in Cata and Mists. Subs were better back then.

[ellieg]

No reason to be hyperbolic.

Casuals make up the bulk of any game and WoW has grown less and less casual friendly.

1. Im not being hyperbolic. He truly thinks every single type of player should get bis over time.

2. I dont agree. Wow has become more and more casual friendly overtime

[Celement]

You think that if we start listing the most successful and beloved games of all time, we are going to have a list of brick-wall challenging games that are known for requiring weeks of progression through brutally difficult content?

No but we will have games that require a basic level of play to best them. Leveling and killing the jailer and getting full heroic raid gear ilv is less mechanically taxing then the first stage of super mario atm.

[ellieg]

I'll be happy when the game is fun again for people who want to do something besides brick wall content.

I dont do brickwall content and its very fun. Are you happy now?

[NineSpine]

1. Im not being hyperbolic. He truly thinks every single type of player should get bis over time.

2. I dont agree. Wow has become more and more casual friendly overtime

If its so casual friendly, why do the casual players seem to unhappy and the only people relentlessly defending the design are fringe difficulty mode players?

Yes, everyone who engages with endgame content should be able to get BiS eventually. Why not? It's fun to get BiS and it doesn't cause any problems except that it hurts your feelings for some reason. Since the game is about having fun and not about providing you with the creepy validation you seem to need, I don't see an issue.

Do I think someone doing Was should get BiS as fast as someone who mythic raids? No, that's stupid. But if they get BiS 4 months later, who cares?

[Necromantic]

1. Im not being hyperbolic.

hy·per·bo·le
/hīˈpərbəlē/
noun: hyperbole; plural noun: hyperboles

exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Hes not going to be happy until his blind paraplegic grandma can get bis.

Check

He truly thinks every single type of player should get bis over time.

Could you link a post of him saying that?

2. I dont agree. Wow has become more and more casual friendly overtime

lol no it hasn't. It's less casual friendly than ever before and the past 3 expansions are only exacerbating it. Unless you were trying to make a joke. If so, well played.