STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[ellieg]

This is what we call a circular conversation.

Yes. Ill reiterate it all so we can both be done. Max theoretical dps (as in sims) changes at the rate of 1 ilvl = 1% dps difference. This is stated by the game director. This had a hundred threads about it when announced. This was and is proven true from sims. Idc if u don't believe me or want to cry about sources.

You claim you don't care about sims, you care abt real data. Real data has mechanics so u won't reach max theoretical dps. But if someone 20 ilvls lower, is doing 50% less dps than someone, dealing with the same or more mechanics, its a skill issue. Like I claimed before.

I'm done talking about this unless you have an actual point besides "SoUrCeS!?!?"

[Necromantic]

Yes. Ill reiterate it all so we can both be done. Max theoretical dps (as in sims) changes at the rate of 1 ilvl = 1% dps difference. This is stated by the game director. This had a hundred threads about it when announced. This was and is proven true from sims. Idc if u don't believe me or want to cry about sources.

You claim you don't care about sims, you care abt real data. Real data has mechanics so u won't reach max theoretical dps. But if someone 20 ilvls lower, is doing 50% less dps than someone, dealing with the same or more mechanics, its a skill issue. Like I claimed before.

I'm done talking about this unless you have an actual point besides "SoUrCeS!?!?"

I'm sorry but there is nothing wrong with someone having serious doubts about what you're saying, especially given you're referencing someone (who works on the game, for Pete's sake...) who has been proven mathematically incorrect several times. You don't have anything to back it up. You're using total conjecture and anecdotes and then trying to criticize someone for being extremely skeptical and asking for a valid source. It's not like a sealion troll asking for something impossible to prove. You said it yourself it was easily googled.

I'm sorry this didn't turn out in your favor.

[chickengoat]

you still need something to sweeten progression. If it's not a weekly nerf and not gear upgrades then what how do you do it?

:shrug: I'm not sold on the design that an expac needs "cleared" before the new one comes out. Some of the best stories come from supposedly unbeatable bosses finally getting beaten. I'm sure there's some consistent X% over heroic damage done/DPS required, to put it crudely, (if we do away with mythic as is current, I mean) that really straddles the line of what's able to be done. Put the top tier difficulty at a few percentage points above that. See who can actually pull it off. You'll need both luck and skill to get it done.

Give them their 15 minutes in the limelight when they do it. If you want to sweeten the pot then give them something like a buff that falls off after a set of time rather than gear. Just to throw an example out there, say a 10% damage output increase & 10% damage received reduction for 30 days so you can farm that raid more easily for a while. I think gear is a hollow pursuit after a certain point since it all becomes obsolete after a period of time anyway so keeping ilvl as the sacred cow feels off to me.

The stat numbers on a piece are often "meh" after a certain point too due to diminishing returns. Things like proc/on use effects are what you're really after. So maybe instead of my earlier example that proc effect is something they "just have" without needing to devote a gear slot to it. The point is there are several other reward systems than just gear. The whole game is a gear piñata. Make it more interesting than even yet more gear.

- - - Updated - - -

So for a failed company that I've ever heard of in my 40 odd years of video gaming. Excellent. With that you think you can tell Blizzard a MUCH larger company with many successes that you should dictate what their game does. Hilarious sense of entitlement again.

Have to point this out. You're showing yourself here, and it's kind of obvious. You have heard of them, and they've made ridiculously successful games. You just don't realize it. I'm apparently too new to post URLs. Look at their Wikipedia page. You would know them by their new name: Blizzard. They were acquired some time ago and fully merged last year.

[arkanon]

I'm sorry but there is nothing wrong with someone having serious doubts about what you're saying, especially given you're referencing someone (who works on the game, for Pete's sake...) who has been proven mathematically incorrect several times. You don't have anything to back it up. You're using total conjecture and anecdotes and then trying to criticize someone for being extremely skeptical and asking for a valid source. It's not like a sealion troll asking for something impossible to prove. You said it yourself it was easily googled.

I'm sorry this didn't turn out in your favor.

The problem with your logic is that it implies that a person who is wrong once is likely wrong about anything and everything, meaning a person who is right once is now right about everything. The math in question was checked out multiple times by multiple people and generally speaking, was accurate. The issues come from people who changed items between sims - rather than just higher ilvls of the same item.

When making comparisons, its important to remove as many variables as possible. The most common variable is a person - thats why we use machines and computers when attempting to recreate something multiple times as accurately as possible. In this situation, a sim is by far the best way to remove nearly all variables. So long as both 'tests' are conducted under identical conditions - same gear, same type of fight, same duration etc, rather than different items with higher ilvl, the results are perfectly acceptable as a comparison.

The same player can do the same fight with the same people in the same gear 10 times in a night, and get 10 very different results. In the days of very firm breakpoints, a small ilvl difference could result in quite large differences in dps by allowing the player to reach those hard breakpoints - ARP being a great example, but also things like haste allowing extra dots within an increased damage window also used to make a big difference.

Im really not sure what him being a part of the dev team has to do with this - you keep saying it over and over, but its really not relevant at all.

[Celement]

Once every three months you get the Dungeon event and you MAY get a good item, sure. . .

Weird way to spell almost every second week but ok. I don't get the grasping at straws.people will be as bored with free mythic raid gear as they are heroic.

There isn't anything to do for people who don't like multiple difficulties because they threw a tantrum about not being able to instantly win every thing.

They got everything they ever asked for.

[Nymrohd]

Weird way to spell almost every second week but ok. I don't get the grasping at straws.people will be as bored with free mythic raid gear as they are heroic.

There isn't anything to do for people who don't like multiple difficulties because they threw a tantrum about not being able to instantly win every thing.

They got everything they ever asked for.

? The Dungeon event is the only one giving Heroic gear. TW gives normal gear. I think the event rotation for Dungeon is every eight weeks? So yes, every other month you have a chance to get a piece of Heroic gear. Which may or may not be the same slot as your legendary or tier.

[Echocho]

I'm not gonna treat posts on mmochamp like a research paper. I dont feel the need to link sources to easily googled things

Fair enough, expect to be called a liar if you don't though.

[Necromantic]

The problem with your logic is that it implies that a person who is wrong once is likely wrong about anything and everything, meaning a person who is right once is now right about everything. The math in question was checked out multiple times by multiple people and generally speaking, was accurate. The issues come from people who changed items between sims - rather than just higher ilvls of the same item.

When making comparisons, its important to remove as many variables as possible. The most common variable is a person - thats why we use machines and computers when attempting to recreate something multiple times as accurately as possible. In this situation, a sim is by far the best way to remove nearly all variables. So long as both 'tests' are conducted under identical conditions - same gear, same type of fight, same duration etc, rather than different items with higher ilvl, the results are perfectly acceptable as a comparison.

The same player can do the same fight with the same people in the same gear 10 times in a night, and get 10 very different results. In the days of very firm breakpoints, a small ilvl difference could result in quite large differences in dps by allowing the player to reach those hard breakpoints - ARP being a great example, but also things like haste allowing extra dots within an increased damage window also used to make a big difference.

Im really not sure what him being a part of the dev team has to do with this - you keep saying it over and over, but its really not relevant at all.

I strongly disagree. Saying someone is right because of who they are is appeal to authority fallacy. Saying “people” have proven it right is hearsay.

[arkanon]

I strongly disagree. Saying someone is right because of who they are is appeal to authority fallacy. Saying “people” have proven it right is hearsay.

I NEVER said he was right because of who he is - fallacy fail. You did say that he is WRONG partly because of who he is though......so.......self burn?

THIS is what i said:

Im really not sure what him being a part of the dev team has to do with this - you keep saying it over and over, but its really not relevant at all.

In absolutely no way is it an appeal to authority - i VERY specifically state that his position in the company has no bearing on the results.

BTW, its not hearsay, since it CAN be substantiated - you could have done the same tests yourself at the same time and had the EXACT same results.

[Skildar]

:shrug: I'm not sold on the design that an expac needs "cleared" before the new one comes out. Some of the best stories come from supposedly unbeatable bosses finally getting beaten. I'm sure there's some consistent X% over heroic damage done/DPS required, to put it crudely, (if we do away with mythic as is current, I mean) that really straddles the line of what's able to be done. Put the top tier difficulty at a few percentage points above that. See who can actually pull it off. You'll need both luck and skill to get it done.

Give them their 15 minutes in the limelight when they do it. If you want to sweeten the pot then give them something like a buff that falls off after a set of time rather than gear. Just to throw an example out there, say a 10% damage output increase & 10% damage received reduction for 30 days so you can farm that raid more easily for a while. I think gear is a hollow pursuit after a certain point since it all becomes obsolete after a period of time anyway so keeping ilvl as the sacred cow feels off to me.

The stat numbers on a piece are often "meh" after a certain point too due to diminishing returns. Things like proc/on use effects are what you're really after. So maybe instead of my earlier example that proc effect is something they "just have" without needing to devote a gear slot to it. The point is there are several other reward systems than just gear. The whole game is a gear piñata. Make it more interesting than even yet more gear.

Just a bit of history so that we are on the same page. The issue that blizzard noticed and tried to resolve is the following :
When a raid group goes into a raid of 10 bosses and manages after multiple wipes to down the first boss then the second then the third. They will want the following week to reach the fourth boss with more ease. But experience and knowledge isn't enough to dramatically reduce the numbers of attempt before a group is able to down these bosses again before reaching the new boss encounters.
To help the raid groups have a better experience the challenges have been made harder and harder as you progress into the instance and an increasing debuff was applied each week. The unfortunate side effect is that raid groups felt the challenge was lessen due too this increasing nerf, and the satisfaction was lessen as well.

In order to keep this nice and healthy, they changed from having an explicit buff/nerf to acquiring more power through gear rewards. As you progress through the instance, you acquire the gear to get with more ease to the next challenge.

TL;DR; gear is not the end reward, the challenge is. Gear is the tool to experiment end challenges without the hastle of wiping in chain on previous bosses.

So yeah maybe we should indeed have something in game that reflects a bit more that the accomplishments are more interesting than the tools we use to reach our goals. We already have achievements, mounts, titles and mascots but there might a whole new paradigm of rewards and exposure to explore in order to put the incentive on the accomplishments.

Have to point this out. You're showing yourself here, and it's kind of obvious. You have heard of them, and they've made ridiculously successful games. You just don't realize it. I'm apparently too new to post URLs. Look at their Wikipedia page. You would know them by their new name: Blizzard. They were acquired some time ago and fully merged last year.

Vicarious visions might have some talent, but their game history is really weak. It's just game orders, remasters and porting game to other platforms. They did fine jobs with some ports in their early years and lately with diablo 2 (but some are very regrettable, crash bandicoot and ctr are really bad). Not the kind of company that will take risk or innovate greatly on any genre.

[Necromantic]

I NEVER said he was right because of who he is - fallacy fail. You did say that he is WRONG partly because of who he is though......so.......self burn?

THIS is what i said:



In absolutely no way is it an appeal to authority - i VERY specifically state that his position in the company has no bearing on the results.

BTW, its not hearsay, since it CAN be substantiated - you could have done the same tests yourself at the same time and had the EXACT same results.

That’s not how that fallacy works, I’m afraid. And we are taking about him, not you. Unless you’re trying the same thing. If so, be my guest.

And saying “you can do it yourself” is a weak argument. Asking for a source is not weak.

[Skildar]

Saying “people” have proven it right is hearsay.

Lay off amber-johnny trial please that has nothing to do with hearsay. It's just a non factual claim.

[arkanon]

That’s not how that fallacy works, I’m afraid. And we are taking about him, not you. Unless you’re trying the same thing. If so, be my guest.

And saying “you can do it yourself” is a weak argument. Asking for a source is not weak.

Sigh - at no point did he say "im a game dev so you should believe everything i say". The fallacy doesnt work here, at all. You are WAY off base here. Dont rely on a fallacy if you dont actually understand it at all. Your unwillingness to look at the dozens of sims done by many players as a result of this discussion, and unwillingness to do the test yourself is weak - EXTREMELY weak.

"You can test it yourself" is actually an extremely STRONG argument - its one of the core features of the scientific method - the ability to reproduce results, which is even stronger when the doubter can conduct the tests themselves.

[Necromantic]

Sigh - at no point did he say "im a game dev so you should believe everything i say". The fallacy doesnt work here, at all. You are WAY off base here. Dont rely on a fallacy if you dont actually understand it at all. Your unwillingness to look at the dozens of sims done by many players as a result of this discussion, and unwillingness to do the test yourself is weak - EXTREMELY weak.

He didn’t say he was. That’s not even what that fallacy means. Saying “so-so” said it because of who they are is how it works.

And again, hearsay is not evidence. If you think it is, that’s on you.

[arkanon]

He didn’t say he was. That’s not even what that fallacy means. Saying “so-so” said it because of who they are is how it works.

And again, hearsay is not evidence. If you think it is, that’s on you.

its not hearsay - stop watching the amber - depp trial my man, you are so, SO wrong here. You cant even decide what the appeal to reason fallacy is, just stop - this is getting worse and worse for you. You literally just completely contradicted yourself and you dont even realise.

I NEVER said 'hes a game dev so hes right'. He never said "im a game dev so im right". So why do you keep saying its a logical fallacy to agree with what he said based on the evidence provided my numerous members of the community running sims? Hint: its not.

[Skildar]

I've always had this opinion about sims and logs :
* sims are just a tool for you to find out mathematically what could be the most interesting choice of stats, gear, talent amongst those that suit your playstyle
* logs are what you can actually deliver. When comparing different classes and specs, refrain from using mythic logs, the pool of players is very limited compared to heroic logs and a lot of excellent players will be absent in the former. Don't you max percentiles, use 75% as you will have to deal with mechanics, movements, etc. and on average 75% is what you can expect to do if you're a great player.

If you're not trying to break the limits of the game (race for world first raider, mm+28, gladiator arena champion, etc.), don't bother spending too much time comparing specs output. Consider the tools of the spec, the flow of the spec, its appearance, if you like it and it speaks to you then you'll do great and be genuinely interested in getting better with it.

I've adopted this mentality with every members of my guilds and it has never done any wrong, neither to the progress nor the guild spirit.

[arkanon]

I've always had this opinion about sims and logs :
* sims are just a tool for you to find out mathematically what could be the most interesting choice of stats, gear, talent amongst those that suit your playstyle
* logs are what you can actually deliver. When comparing different classes and specs, refrain from using mythic logs, the pool of players is very limited compared to heroic logs and a lot of excellent players will be absent in the former. Don't you max percentiles, use 75% as you will have to deal with mechanics, movements, etc. and on average 75% is what you can expect to do if you're a great player.

If you're not trying to break the limits of the game (race for world first raider, mm+28, gladiator arena champion, etc.), don't bother spending too much time comparing specs output. Consider the tools of the spec, the flow of the spec, its appearance, if you like it and it speaks to you then you'll do great and be genuinely interested in getting better with it.

I've adopted this mentality with every members of my guilds and it has never done any wrong, neither to the progress nor the guild spirit.

Agree with all this, however, when making the comparison of same stats, same spec, same class, etc etc etc, and all you want to see is what an increase of XYZ ilvls will make, you need something consistent and reliable, removing as many variables as possible. When people look at sims and think "ok cool thats how much dps i can do" thats obviously a mistake. Also a mistake would be trying to decide between warrior dps and hunter dps and using a sim of each as the deciding factor - like you correctly stated, thats not the whole picture - different classes/specs bring different utility and each have benifits the other doesnt.

Maybe your team is really melee heavy so even though the warrior sims higher, the hunter might be the better choice. Maybe you want to play mage but you really need a brez so lock is a better choice. Those are variables that can be very important in that comparison, but when comparing ilvls on the same toon, with the same gear, just trying to work out what the max potential difference is, a sim is the best tool.

I remember years ago playing with a guy who was a fantastic shaman - all three specs but mostly enhance. He rocked up one night on warrior and when i asked him why he was swapping, he said "it sims way higher than my shammy". His dps was bloody terrible. Its true that his shammy simmed lower than his warrior, but he had fuck all experience on his warrior, so his muscle memory was average at best, and he just couldnt play it nearly as well as his shammy. The sim was accurate, but it was used incorrectly.

[Skildar]

when I want to check how much I can deal I compare myself with the best that use the same optimization I do, check their resource management, cd usage, the timeline of their cast, proc usage, etc.

I will seldom go to the sims for the answer except maybe to check the APL and the timeline (but it is very difficult to read most of the times)

[arkanon]

when I want to check how much I can deal I compare myself with the best that use the same optimization I do, check their resource management, cd usage, the timeline of their cast, proc usage, etc.

I will seldom go to the sims for the answer except maybe to check the APL and the timeline (but it is very difficult to read most of the times)

How would you compare two identical characters, with identical gear, and identical specs, with literally the only difference being that one character had 20 ilvls over the other (identical stats on gear, identical gear, just higher ilvl versions of the same gear)? Remember, you are ONLY trying to see the difference the 20 ilvls make - nothing else.

[Necromantic]

its not hearsay - stop watching the amber - depp trial my man, you are so, SO wrong here. You cant even decide what the appeal to reason fallacy is, just stop - this is getting worse and worse for you. You literally just completely contradicted yourself and you dont even realise.

I NEVER said 'hes a game dev so hes right'. He never said "im a game dev so im right". So why do you keep saying its a logical fallacy to agree with what he said based on the evidence provided my numerous members of the community running sims? Hint: its not.

You don’t seem to understand how that fallacy works or what hearsay is. I can’t help you at this point if you’re going to be deliberately obtuse and superfluous.