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    World of Warcraft: Dragonflight - Talent System Design Philosophy

    World of Warcraft: Dragonflight - Talent System Design Philosophy
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    Dragonflight contains major updates to World of Warcraft classes, centering on the re-introduction of talent trees. In this preview, we take a first look at the prototype trees for the Druid and Death Knight classes. These and all the other trees still have a lot of work to be done, but we want to share what we can to start collecting detailed feedback at this early stage.

    Talent System Design Philosophy

    Some of our biggest goals in a class and talent revamp are to increase player agency over your character’s progression and build, provide meaningful rewards while leveling, and reinforce your character’s connection to both their class and their spec. In addition, we felt we had to retain many features of modern World of Warcraft specializations. Specializations have many unique abilities, some of which might be central to the identity of the spec. They have a wide variety of optional bonuses that have been created at various times over the years. This all led us back to talent trees— a concept familiar to people who played WoW before the Mists of Pandaria expansion.

    Visually, trees are still an intuitive way to represent the different paths one could follow while making many choices about a character. Trees also communicate dependencies and magnitude intuitively, without a lot of added rules. For example, talents higher in the tree are expected to be more commonly chosen, while talents lower in the tree are more optional and more geared towards shaping max-level builds.

    Dragonflight talent trees have some significant differences from previous versions of talent trees in World of Warcraft. First, you have not one tree, but two. This is due to the combined importance of class wide and specialization-specific themes for current WoW characters. The class tree contains a core set of abilities available to all specs in a class and has a higher proportion of utility choices. It’s a place where you can, among other things, choose some abilities or passives that draw from the identity of other specializations to give your character some hybrid flavor, or simply to grab something particularly useful for certain content. The specialization tree is predominantly focused on bonuses that enhance your power in your main role. Keeping these separate is one way of ensuring that you have some choices in both areas without, for example, feeling compelled to give up all your utility or off-spec buttons in order to maximize main role performance.

    Another fundamental change is that much more of your class is represented in the tree, instead of being awarded automatically while leveling up. Other than the starting abilities you obtain before you access the system at level 10, the vast majority of abilities are obtained via the tree. This gives rise to some of the most important questions and challenges of the new system. Exploring a world where many more things are optional has a lot of advantages but requires a lot of care.

    Here are just some answers to questions and answers that we know you might be wondering about:

    • “Some abilities are critical to my rotation—will that mean I always have to build a certain way?”
      • No. The most basic building blocks of your rotation will tend to be either learned from levels 1-10, awarded automatically in the class tree, or placed at the top of your spec tree as a first point spent in that tree. In other cases, major abilities that we expect to be a part of most builds will be near the start of a tree, or on an easily accessible path so that they don’t constrain your other choices.

    • “A certain piece of utility is important in certain content (for example, interrupts in Mythic+), does this limit my choices?”
      • Similarly, the more likely something is to be all but required for some players, the more we must place it in the tree in an appropriate location— one that still leaves the rest of your build choices very open.

    • “Does this mean it’s possible to make very ‘bad’ builds?”
      • In short, yes. There are limits and guardrails here, such as those abilities that are automatically given. And furthermore, our goal in designing the trees is not to trap players in complicated choices in order to make a functional build; in fact, it’s the opposite—it's to set up the trees with intuitive paths that lead you to reasonable builds. But a key philosophy of this rework is to keep the player in the driver’s seat of their character’s growth within their class.

    • “Does this mean that some of my points are spent on somewhat ‘obvious’ choices, and aren’t likely to be moved?”
      • Often, yes. 61 points is drastically more than the 7 that players currently have in Shadowlands. And it would probably be a mistake if all 61 points were always heavily in play— this is part of how we maintain the balance alluded to above, where it’s not overwhelming to make and analyze builds. The tree contains a spectrum of more basic abilities all the way to comparatively advanced ones, and one of the advantages of this system is letting you draw that line.

    • “Doesn’t this all mean that I will use some of my points to re-buy some things that were baseline in Shadowlands?”
      • For all the reasons mentioned above, making a huge swath of abilities open to player decision-making requires this. We hear this feedback as primarily a concern about having much less “stuff” than you had in Shadowlands. After starting with your basic class and spending 61 points in a tree, will you feel “pruned”? Openly, our goal is that you don’t. We’ll be watching for feedback on this. Our goal is for a Dragonflight character to feel like it has a similar amount of power and complexity—which can be hard to quantify—as a Shadowlands character. The main difference is you getting to choose which active buttons and passive bonuses make up that toolset, and potentially having combinations that were previously impossible.

    One other set of questions is around what abilities are still awarded automatically outside of the tree. There are few broad categories:

    • Abilities learned before 10, the most basic elements of what starts to make you into your class (Moonfire, Death Strike).
    • Buttons whose impact is primarily non-combat and non-power related (Teleport: Moonglade, Path of Frost, Revive).
    • Nonstacking group buffs or spells, where a group virtually always wants exactly one person with the ability (Raise Ally, Rebirth, Mark of the Wild).

    There are a lot of case-by-case calls to be made around all of this, but by and large we are pushing ourselves to leave it to players to explore in the trees how to build out their class from levels 10 to 70.

    A Few Nuts and Bolts

    The experience of using the tree will be more intuitive when you play with the system in-game, but we want to provide some explanation here for those who want to analyze the current draft trees in detail. Please bear in mind, these are all subject to change as we continue development.

    • Your first class tree point is awarded at level 10, and your first specialization tree point at level 11, alternating between the two from there. At level 70, you will have 31 available class points and 30 specialization points.
    • Certain basic abilities in the class tree, are given automatically to people of particular specializations. These do not cost any points.
    • Most talents have prerequisites (these will be indicated by arrows in the final UI). If a talent has any arrows leading to it, you must have fully purchased at least one of those previous talents to access it. For clarity, arrows always point downwards or diagonally downwards in current drafts.
    • Every tree has certain rows that you can’t advance past until you’ve spent a certain number of talent points (unlike in pre-Mists of Pandaria trees, this is not the case for every row). In the prototype Druid and Death Knight trees, you cannot buy talents in the fifth row and beyond until you’ve spent eight points in the tree, and you cannot buy talents in the eighth row and beyond until you’ve spent twenty points in the tree.
    • In octagonal “choice” nodes, you may obtain one of the two choices at a time.

  2. #2
    Wonder how balance will be, seeing as they can't balance 7 choices properly...

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergin8r View Post
    Wonder how balance will be, seeing as they can't balance 7 choices properly...
    Balance is going out the window for sure.

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Sluvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker1 View Post
    Balance is going out the window for sure.
    The problem with balancing is not the talents.

    Its everything else on top of it.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    The problem with balancing is not the talents.

    Its everything else on top of it.
    You're both wrong, it's how all of those thing interact with eachother. Balancing baseline skills or talents in a vacuum is the easiest thing ever.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Sluvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    You're both wrong, it's how all of those thing interact with eachother. Balancing baseline skills or talents in a vacuum is the easiest thing ever.
    I thought that ws clear when I said on TOP of it. but sure.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  7. #7
    Dear God they have officially made Kick/Interrupts/CC not baseline...

  8. #8
    So glad I have the meaningful choice to not pick an interrupt, was always kind of elitist forcing others to such niche abilities anywho

  9. #9
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Super excited about having to micromanage my entire raid's talents now also because I can't just assume that people have things like interrupts or survival cooldowns when we need them at a particular time.

    I know the community has been waiting more in-depth talent trees for a long time but I'm really really unhappy with things that are currently baseline moving to talents, especially since presumably we aren't going to necessarily be able to get all of them back. It's going to feel terrible losing abilities I have to have now and then worry about buying a few of them back with a rationed currency that may compete with througput abilities, and that's not even worrying about the people I'm playing it. Am I going to have to inspect talents in PuG keystones now also in addition to my raids? What a fucking headache.

    I really wish they had limited the active abilities in these trees expac-unique actives like things we saw in azerite armor, neck essences, artifact weapons, covenant abilities, and existing talents. None of the talented actives should be things that are baseline for classes now, unless it is making spec-specific baselines available to all specs via talents. Yes, even if it is something (like a buff) that only one person in the raid needs to be able to provide.

    In general, I'm pretty easy going about WoW changes with the "well, we'll see how it ends up" but these previews have confirmed a lot of my biggest concerns about the new talent trees, and it is the first time in a long time I am actually dreading an update.


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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Dear God they have officially made Kick/Interrupts/CC not baseline...
    It's both good and bad. It does take a slot for no reason on many raid fights - but people not taking it to m+ will be a different story
    On the other hand, people who know how important it is to kick will take interrupt anyway - and people who don't don't use it anyway, even while having it.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    Man this all sounds really bad.

  12. #12
    Yeah well this seems to confirm every bad fear people had - from locked-in choices to the irrelevancy of certain picks to cookie-cutter domination to the illusion of choice.

    We'll have to see the actual trees to be certain, but this does not bode well.

  13. #13
    Cant wait to face a Balance druid with skull bash, mighty bash, vortex, hotw, renewal, typhoon, sleep, cyclone in addition to their regular toolkit.

  14. #14
    i dont get the point of the "general class" talent tree such as the Druid talent tree.
    For example in that preview Druids have a talented spell called Typhoon that pretty much all specs would love, but its locked behind a ton of resto/balance Druid talents.

    Why do cats/bears have to spend a ton of talent points on useless caster talents in the general Druid talent tree just to reach the Typhoon spell?
    Really does not seem enjoyable...

  15. #15
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Interrupt should only be a talent option for the specs that don't currently have one at all. Let people talent into a shorter cooldown (or refunded cooldown cost) but for the love of god, please keep core utilities baseline.

    I fucking hate this. As a player, as a PuGer, and as a raid leader.


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  16. #16
    That Blood DK tree has some legitimately tough choices to make. Sure they are designed so the most basic, obvious choices are at the top of the tree so everyone will be "forced" to take them. But mid way down and to the bottom of the tree has great stuff on every branch.


    Cant wait for wowhead to get a basic talent calculator up.

  17. #17
    Oh fuck yes this is going to be a glorious shitshow. Just remember: You asked for this.

  18. #18
    The fact that they're opening the door for bad builds is extremely concerning; both as a player, and that the developers making these decisions clearly don't PUG at a high level. It's going to be incredibly frustrating when players are in your group, and they don't have interrupts or dispels or whatever else. Other games have made this exact same choice, and it wasn't long before the community started screaming for a reversal.

  19. #19
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Oh fuck yes this is going to be a glorious shitshow. Just remember: You asked for this.
    No, a lot of us sure fucking didn't.

    And certainly plenty of people who did ask wanted to be able to keep and choose between stuff like legendary powers, conduits, artifact weapon traits, etc. Not choosing between throughput and a damage reduction, or giving up abilities they already rely on.

    There was certainly a way to do this return to bigger trees -- although I would have been more than happy with current talents with a couple extra tiers -- that could have been more interesting and less painful, and it's on Blizz to choose to go this clownshoes route.


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  20. #20
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Super excited about having to micromanage my entire raid's talents now also because I can't just assume that people have things like interrupts or survival cooldowns when we need them at a particular time.
    If you're in a raiding guild with people who care even a moderate amount you won't need to because those players will have that shit already.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Oh fuck yes this is going to be a glorious shitshow. Just remember: You asked for this.
    Hell yeah, bring it on. Shake the game up, shake the players up.

    Right now it's a snoozefest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Dear God they have officially made Kick/Interrupts/CC not baseline...
    What's the difference between bad players not picking an Interrupt talent and bad players not having their Interrupt ability on their bars, let alone keybound or used?

    Baddies are gonna baddie no matter what.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

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