World of Warcraft: Dragonflight - Talent System Design Philosophy

[Biomega]

I'm running through the DK tree and its actually pretty hard *not* to have both Mind Freeze and AMS. You basically have to be some sort of very weird and exclusive Frost/Unholy or Blood/Unholy hybrid that stops you from spending 2 points in the remaining "Branch".

Even then it's not an actual choice. If you get both anyway what's the point of putting it to a choice? That's not a meaningful choice either.

A lot of the old (vanilla) talents were like that, too - automatic picks, more or less. That was one of the reasons why they decided to change the system back then.

So why are we back to automatic choices, then?

Talents should be CHOICES, not an excuse for them to take things out of the spellbook and dump them into the tree as default picks. That's stupid design.

[Celvira]

An environment where everyone has everything isn't exactly ideal or fun. It's boring, and more drunkard friendly.
It is much more fun to change depending on what you plan to do.

Though seeing how the MoP (and beyond) talents cater more towards the heavily intoxicated, it's hard to go back for some.

Don't be pedantic. My criticism is not to promote players running the same builds, but rather Blizzard clearly admitting that they are adding baseline abilities into the talent revamp knowing players are going to choose them anyways. At that point, just keep them baseline.

And let us be perfectly frank here; if you are leading a +15 key, are you going to select the DPS or tank that doesn't have an interrupt slotted? Hell no you aren't. Interrupts are such a critical tool in WoW that you are severely gimping your viability by not having one.

[Fentawow]

You don't have to take both - it would be to your detriment but the philosophy is that as you level you should be able to get critical abilities easily.

You seem to be thinking of the tree from an end game perspective but it is interesting as you level. I don't get the thought process that you legitimately seem to think going from 7 talent rows where you get 7 selections to being able to spend like 61 points you didn't think things should be pulled off baseline into the tree. It isn't surprising in the slightest as the preview tree sort of showed us this so it isn't new info.

When you select a spec you get a few of your spec specific moves for free and don't have to spend like 2-3 points on it. But in no way is getting mad at blizzard for not dreaming up 60 new talents to compliment the 21 we had in the current tree reasonable as we would have the most over bloated classes unless they were all passives (and this thread would be full of they are all passive abilities I cannot believe blizzard sucks so much).

[Biomega]

Interrupts are such a critical tool in WoW that you are severely gimping your viability by not having one.

Personally, I'd have loved for them to streamline interrupts and give them to everyone - precisely BECAUSE they're so vital.

And then use talents to add specific strength to the baseline. Like idk, increase the range, get 2 charges in exchange for higher CD, that sort of thing. An actual CHOICE.

[kamuimac]

its hillarius. they already know its gonna be boring garbage and 1 bis build but they have to pretend there will be alternatives

no there wont be

ever

there will be 1 bis build and nything different from it wil be considered compelte garbage

instead choices just make it that you fill out whole tree when you are on max level and be done pretending that things liek choice and agency exists.

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"Dude you have zero interrupts"

"Sorry I'm not specced into Wind Shear"

kek

first of all nobody will be saying it in DF because everyone who will be after their 3rd ban for speaking up due to new protect snowlfakes policies :0

people will just start being silent and silently leaving mid run :0

[TristanTaylor]

its hillarius. they already know its gonna be boring garbage and 1 bis build but they have to pretend there will be alternatives

no there wont be

ever

there will be 1 bis build and nything different from it wil be considered compelte garbage

instead choices just make it that you fill out whole tree when you are on max level and be done pretending that things liek choice and agency exists.

This is exactly my fear as well. It's how it was years ago, it's how it is now, and it's how it appears it's going to be again. Just now, as years ago, there will be an imagined ability to do what you want, however if you don't do what the strat guides say, you won't get into much at all.

[kamuimac]

Hell yeah, bring it on. Shake the game up, shake the players up.

Right now it's a snoozefest.

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.

well i cant lie - cannot wait to see the glorious s...tstorm that will hit the forums once this is live and people realise how they f...ed themselve up on their own wish :0

will be legendary

[Sluvs]

This is exactly my fear as well. It's how it was years ago, it's how it is now, and it's how it appears it's going to be again. Just now, as years ago, there will be an imagined ability to do what you want, however if you don't do what the strat guides say, you won't get into much at all.

I mean, did anybody expected something else?

This was literally how it was, with the exception of a couple of classes, it was basically cookie cutter or go home.

[Slybak]

Even then it's not an actual choice.

It's a choice in that its two points you *can* spend elsewhere, the question is whether or not having a separate build based on "elsewhere" is worth having and switching to in those cases where you're not going to be interrupting spells and/or taking magic damage. A lot of people just set their builds and don't look back.

Honestly I'm surprised more people aren't bringing up IBF as an example of something that should never be made a talent, because that ability is really never not useful.

[Biomega]

Honestly I'm surprised more people aren't bringing up IBF as an example of something that should never be made a talent, because that ability is really never not useful.

I'm sure there's others as well, abilities that should bloody well be the default because they're so good they're indispensable and not having them feels like actual shit. Having talents like that as "choices" isn't really a choice - and so it shouldn't be.

[ImpalerEU]

Don't be pedantic. My criticism is not to promote players running the same builds, but rather Blizzard clearly admitting that they are adding baseline abilities into the talent revamp knowing players are going to choose them anyways. At that point, just keep them baseline.

And let us be perfectly frank here; if you are leading a +15 key, are you going to select the DPS or tank that doesn't have an interrupt slotted? Hell no you aren't. Interrupts are such a critical tool in WoW that you are severely gimping your viability by not having one.

Regarding your last point. Sure, interruptions are important. But there was a time when you picked certain classes to do certain tasks, and it worked fine even in the most challenging scenarios. Not everyone was expected to have a cover up button with the exact same ability.

Additionally, what a lot of people are missing here is the fact that how the game/atmosphere is designed plays a key role in how those abilities will work out. People are being gullible as usual here by judging the current game's environment with what is yet to come. The way the new talents are designed will go hand in hand with how the unfamiliar environment/dungeons/raids/PvP will be designed.

In other words, what's looking odd and weird here will not exactly be as odd and weird when people play the new expansion and experience the unfamiliar environment.

[mrgreenthump]

Ah yis. Ready to mald over stupid choices Mages have to make. Would be hilarious if Blink isn't baseline. Also wonder if they focus the survivability of mages on mobility or defensives. People would mald in PvP if it's mobility. Hopefully we don't have to wait for long for other classes.

Looking at Death Knight and Druid though. I feel like this is gonna widen the power gap from casual to elite. There are so many situational talents in the Blood tree at least, that you loose out on a lot of you try to single spec on everything.

Dear God they have officially made Kick/Interrupts/CC not baseline...

Can't wait for the community to agree that casters don't take it and force melee to take it. They should give casters back the non-gdc castable while casting interupts for PvE at least.

[Sorrior]

It's both good and bad. It does take a slot for no reason on many raid fights - but people not taking it to m+ will be a different story
On the other hand, people who know how important it is to kick will take interrupt anyway - and people who don't don't use it anyway, even while having it.

Omg if they had made the class specific perks from the previous 3 xpacs talents but given us our full kit..just yes please.

The rpute they are going really feels like one step forward 1-2 back.

[varren]

Lmaooo. Be careful what you wish for.

[MoanaLisa]

A meta for each class/spec was always going to emerge. The guy who was very influential in establishing the importance of theory-crafting and building metas (who is now game director) back when he ran Elitist Jerks is well aware of this. Nonetheless high-end players will slavishly adhere to whatever the meta is at the moment. Other players will go along because they've 'heard' this is the best way to build their character. WowHead or Icy Veins or some other site will confirm that for those that look it up.

The rest might enjoy screwing around with the trees (which can be fun). What is true is that for 70%-80% of players who don't raid and don't engage with high-end M+ or PVP having some choices may be attractive to them. That's the real audience for this (which most will never see, read or know about).

[Mhyroth]

I can see the M+ groups already forming in LFG: "No interrupt no INV".
A bit with how people make groups now and call them "No Alliance scrubs" too.

[crusadernero]

This is exactly my fear as well. It's how it was years ago, it's how it is now, and it's how it appears it's going to be again. Just now, as years ago, there will be an imagined ability to do what you want, however if you don't do what the strat guides say, you won't get into much at all.

I dont really disagree with you but are the talent trees really the issue here? I mean, if BIS is BIS no matter what - whats even the point of talents then? Cant Blizzard just create classes & specs with abilities and call it a day? Drop spending time on talents. Just give everyone the baseline stuff.

If picking the wrong talents are keeping you out of content today, what has changend? I mean, in the old versions of wow you could bring literally any class & spec for any content and you would at the very least clear it. You wouldnt speedrun it, but you would clear it.

I think thats one of the reasons hybrid specs actually were a thing back in the day - the base content was available for most players, with all kinds of specs.

So, that begs the question for retail wow today; At what point does having BiS talents/gear become critical? Mythic raid? Hc? Normal? LFR? Mythic key 20? 15? 10? 5?

Since SL I have bad bastion as my covenant on my Paladin. Even now when you can swap easily I dont bother with it, cant be bothered. But, its not the BIS covenant. Yet, i've cleared most content I find valuable. Not mythic raids, but atleast high m+ keys and HC raids.

I even upgraded a second legendary that wasnt considered BIS cause its allright enough. Imagine!

[Alkizon]

in your main role

the vast majority of abilities are obtained via the tree

*growls* here we go again. No, gentlemen, you won’t get a damn thing until you correctly distinguish between concepts of class, specialization and role (and they are ve-e-e-ery different, both in purpose and in mechanism&degree of influence on choice&gameplay), and most importantly, what place (and conditions for their implementation go hand in hand with it) they occupy in hierarchy.

Funny, this limitation:

Every tree has certain rows that you can’t advance past until you’ve spent a certain number of talent points (unlike in pre-Mists of Pandaria trees, this is not the case for every row). In the prototype Druid and Death Knight trees, you cannot buy talents in the fifth row and beyond until you’ve spent eight points in the tree, and you cannot buy talents in the eighth row and beyond until you’ve spent twenty points in the tree.

in old tree was mostly due to underlining/strengthening "specialization", there was a certain logical sequence/route, but stuff right here is required simply because of banal errors in implementation (access to almost all spells/capabilities was controlled only by character growth, via trainer and spellbook, but wasn't accentuate on way of specializing, and now... you see yourself) *condemnational head shaking* Also, not sure, what is so important could that

In octagonal “choice” nodes, you may obtain one of the two choices at a time.

mean to (why was this even mentioned at all).

ps. Well, here at least they don’t lie anymore, but really say the way of how it’s all bypassed checkout (how much it's not, what supposed to be - that this has nothing to do with old trees other than visual representation) *frowns*

[8bithamster]

Please mmo champ. Never change, first screech you want old talent trees back. Now whine you want to keep sl version. You guys change your mind faster than a teen girl on Twitter.

[Twdft]

The rest might enjoy screwing around with the trees (which can be fun). What is true is that for 70%-80% of players who don't raid and don't engage with high-end M+ or PVP having some choices may be attractive to them. That's the real audience for this (which most will never see, read or know about).

We've seen with covenants that it's rather like 70%-80% of all players choose power. As will be the case with every version of talent tree, people will just look up a guide and copy it.

What the current trees do quite well is giving mostly the choice between a passive and two active talents. Max level everyone is choosing power which due to balancing will always be active, while leveling I just choose all passives so I don't have to turn away my attention too much from the netflix show on second monitor.

There will always be cookie cutter builds and most people will always adhere to them. All we can hope from the new trees (or any talent system at all) is that the choices for your last 3 points are actually interesting.