Meaningful choices in new talent tree (Interrupt vs survival cd)

[rpdrichard]

While bringing back old talent they are making a big mistake by not making interrupts baseline.

Old content tied to timewalking and PvP need interrupts, it´s not much of a choice you have to take the interrupt over other options.

A meaningful choice would be increase damage vs increase survival. That is a choice that can be adapted to your playstyle and needs.

The talent trees are a sketch for now, so I hpe they change that kind of things. Except for that detail the new trees are looking good. They can use some trweaks but seem to be a step in the right direction overall.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I mean you can get both, you need to piss away 8 points in the beginning anyway to get into the 5th row. The issue is you will be spending like 6-7 talents just to get your baseline back... that leaves you with 1 or 2 points to get something that was a talent before. It's an incredible shallow, almost cynical way, to design those trees.

While I agree that from a gameplay psychology point of view it's a massive mistake to make interrupts not baseline, I think the same applies to basic defensive CDs and crowd control. It's kinda fucked up that you have to spend points to learn even the most basic stuff. Not only is it lazy, you just know that pugging will turn into a new level of hell with all those "unique" individuals that only take stuff that raises their DPS..

[Craaazyyy]

I mean you can get both, you need to piss away 8 points in the beginning anyway to get into the 5th row. The issue is you will be spending like 6-7 talents just to get your baseline back... that leaves you with 1 or 2 points to get something that was a talent before. It's an incredible shallow, almost cynical way, to design those trees.

While I agree that from a gameplay psychology point of view it's a massive mistake to make interrupts not baseline, I think the same applies to basic defensive CDs and crowd control. It's kinda fucked up that you have to spend points to learn even the most basic stuff. Not only is it lazy, you just know that pugging will turn into a new level of hell with all those "unique" individuals that only take stuff that raises their DPS..

this is what i hate the most.. i want more baseline abilities and then talents on top.. not picking up stuff that i just used to have baseline, it's annoying

[klaps_05]

Subjective and limited to what i have read, but feedback which I have seen is that people want 1. a full spellbook as a baseline for your spec/class and 2. talents which ENHANCE that spellbook in various ways to adjust for content you are doing.

We are going down the road again of instead of having a simple system which players can tinker with, its a convoluted trade-off meaningful choice <insert more buzzwords here> system. 17 years of having baseline kick now is deemed not necessary? Why not keep Kick baseline but add talents which modify it, if taken?

Then theres also different problems - suddenly some specs will have overboard utility. Balance druid with multiple interrupts and a bunch of guardian traits. Imagine sub with garrote silence, gauge and blade flurry. Or holy pala with interrupt, FOJ, blinding light, repentance and shield of vengeance?

Blizzard struggles to balance current talents (majority of which are actually dead), i cant imagine balancing unlimited utility access.

[StillMcfuu]

While bringing back old talent they are making a big mistake by not making interrupts baseline.

Old content tied to timewalking and PvP need interrupts, it´s not much of a choice you have to take the interrupt over other options.

A meaningful choice would be increase damage vs increase survival. That is a choice that can be adapted to your playstyle and needs.

The talent trees are a sketch for now, so I hpe they change that kind of things. Except for that detail the new trees are looking good. They can use some trweaks but seem to be a step in the right direction overall.

Some would say interrupts are the stronger survival choice depending on content.

[Aleksej89]

I really dont understand the new general talent trees.
Current classes have been chopped up into pieces, and then we are allowed to choose like half of those pieces that we can use at any one time.

Whats the point of the (for example) general druid tree if it contains mandatory abilities for the role you are performing?
You have to burn all the points on the mandatory role abilities, and if any points remain then perhaps something on the side.

At the end we are again left with less of a class than we even have at the moment.

[Advent]

I really dont understand the new general talent trees.
Current classes have been chopped up into pieces, and then we are allowed to choose like half of those pieces that we can use at any one time.

Whats the point of the (for example) general druid tree if it contains mandatory abilities for the role you are performing?
You have to burn all the points on the mandatory role abilities, and if any points remain then perhaps something on the side.

At the end we are again left with less of a class than we even have at the moment.

The mandatory ones you'll get most of for free. Try it out for yourself, the tree automatically grants you baseline abilities for free in the class tree based on what spec you've chosen. The rest is often utility or playstyle choice.

[Biomega]

The mandatory ones you'll get most of for free. Try it out for yourself, the tree automatically grants you baseline abilities for free in the class tree based on what spec you've chosen. The rest is often utility or playstyle choice.

The problem is, if something isn't actually a choice WHY IS IT IN THERE.

That's one of the big points of criticism from old talents - stuff that you just put points in without thinking, every time. That's not fun. That's not engaging. That's just clicking on something to have the feeling of having done something, when really you didn't.

That's shit design.

[jeezusisacasual]

If i see a dps not speced into a kick they are getting kicked period. Why in the hell do i want them to make someone or everyone in the group take more damage and in turn making the healer heal more. Its insane to me that is a rational choice it should just be baseline since its so fundamental to any group, i understand the choice aspect but having a kick is not one of them since having one is such a group wide boon that its clearly expected. This is a co-operative game at the end of the day and respect should be given to ones playstyle but the group is always more important then the singular player.

Choice should be like going between Ancestral Guidance and Nature's Guardian not this. The illusion of choice should not be showcased or even promoted.

[Biomega]

Whoever thought this is about effort and options has forgotten that the developers simply are incompetent.

I'm not even sure it's incompetence.

I think it's ruthlessly calculating. They're banking on nostalgia value by evoking old talents, and heavily focusing on giving players the FEELING of agency - an illusion of choice that suggests people have more options now, when really a lot of those options aren't actually options. They could make those "talents" baseline and cut a few points AND IT WOULD BE THE EXACT SAME gameplay - except this way they can make people think they get to spend more points.

Why do this? Simple: it's less work. Balancing talents is tricky, and the more of them there are the trickier it gets because choices grow massively with larger trees. By adding default picks that aren't really optional in any meaningful sense they get to have their cake and eat it, too. People feel they have bigger talent trees to work with now, and more points to spend; while the non-choices allow the developers to balance more easily because there's actually far less variants in the system than it seems.

It's not incompetence. It's sleight of hand.

And you can see how well it's working - a lot of people are swallowing it hook, line, and sinker.

[Biomega]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
- Hanlon's razor

Who said anything about malice?

They're not doing this because they're evil. They're doing this because it's more cost-efficient.

[Biomega]

That would be malice again then

Do you perhaps not know what malice means, or how it's different from ruthlessness?

Ruthless = you don't care if someone gets hurt

Malicious = you want someone to get hurt

Those are not the same thing. At all.

[Biomega]

While i am sure they simply do not know how to do it right.

You literally create a conspiracy theory they do it for ruthless reasons while the truth simply is they do not know better.

If it's such a simple truth, prove it.

Your assumption is a team of people who get paid money to develop games and have years of experience simply don't know what they're doing.

Mine is that they're acting on corporate interest, using design to placate players while keeping man-hour investment to a minimum.

Which of those rests on more assumptions, you think?

[Rendark]

It really comes down to this, no interrupts no invite.

Lets hope they make it baseline.

[Biomega]

Well, it is the other way around. If you say they do it bad on purpose, prove it.

First of all, we'd both need to prove it.

I made my case. I gave reasons why I think so.

You just said "lol they're stupid come on".

What do you think is more likely? A ruthless evil mastermind or a lawyer who thinks he can design a game without knowing a lot about game design?

You're again smuggling evil into this. No one is evil. There's nothing sinister going on. They're simply going with what they think is an easy solution that'll make players happy and not require them to do insane amounts of work. Even if it means it's mostly hoodwinking.

[Biomega]

No, it is actually up to you to prove they do it bad on purpose. It is a logical fallacy i would have to prove it is not bad on purpose.

The burden of proof is on any claim. "They're stupid" isn't the null hypothesis.

Well, that is the most logical reason, based on Hanlon's razor.

Hanlon's razor deals with malice. I've already explained there's nothing malicious going on. It doesn't apply.

You talked about "ruthless", and that normally includes being evil. But hey, lets just agree to disagree here

Those are not the same thing. Certainly not in the way of malice, like you assert.

Try again, please.

[Biomega]

As a logical consequence and based on Hanlon's razor it is. What is left if you do not create shit on purpose?

You're basing everything on a device that's mostly tongue-in-cheek, but even if taken seriously simply doesn't apply to the point I was making.

AND EVEN IF IT DID, all it says is "incompetence is more likely than malice"

IT DOES NOT say "anything that isn't malice is automatically incompetence".

That is absolutely elementary formal logic.

Yours is a claim like any other, and one that requires proof like any other.

Yes, and ruthlessness is related to malice . I also tried to explain that.

"Related to" isn't the same as "equal to". "Good" is related to "evil", too.

An automated online thesaurus isn't a source for coequal definitions. Geez.

Ah no i better stop it at this point. Seems you see discussing as a battle and you want to win it at all means. Which is not really productive. Have a nice day.

"I don't understand how to argue properly, so I'm just going to say I don't really care and bow out."

Probably the smartest thing you've said in this thread.

[Advent]

The problem is, if something isn't actually a choice WHY IS IT IN THERE.

That's one of the big points of criticism from old talents - stuff that you just put points in without thinking, every time. That's not fun. That's not engaging. That's just clicking on something to have the feeling of having done something, when really you didn't.

That's shit design.

Because it IS a choice for other specs. This is what people wanted, and Blizzard delivered it to them.

[Valdhammer]

Remember when only a few classes had interrupts and we all survived somehow? People need to relax. Plenty of things to criticize Blizz for. These very early talent tree previews are not one of them.

[Rendark]

Because it IS a choice for other specs. This is what people wanted, and Blizzard delivered it to them.

This is what SOME people wanted.

- - - Updated - - -

Remember when only a few classes had interrupts and we all survived somehow? People need to relax. Plenty of things to criticize Blizz for. These very early talent tree previews are not one of them.

Times have changed dude. There are way more things that need to be interrupted now.