Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[xenogear3]

Can someone tell me when exactly the game becomes p2w?

Late endgame? Because I’m 30 atm and besides some advertising here and there I’m totally ignoring the shop and I’m not feeling I have to buy something to proceed.

It only takes an hour to reach level 30. You haven't reached the grind levels.
Late on, the story only gets you one level. You have to grind for 4 levels before the next story.

There are 6 bundles. The prices are $1, $1, $2, $4, $7, $10.
The extra value becomes less and less.
None of them guarantees a 5-star gem. You have 4% chance to get a random 5-star gem.

At level 50, there is a $20 deal.

I am sure that you can finish the main story without paying.
It is the end game which requires 5-star gem.

No one knows how painful the end game is, so don't spend any money.
Not even the $1 deal.

There are lots of things require to upgrade.
They are either locked behind by a weekly raid or another paywall which we don't know about.

[Jerot]

Gladly there's no need to wonder at the psychology of people who complain about p2w in f2p.
It's mostly insecurity about their finances and life choices.

They see a guy who dropped $1k on the game and got the shiny armor. But they can't afford to drop $1k on shiny armor. They feel envy, then anger, then they cope by calling the guy stupid for dropping $1k on a silly game WHILE WASTING THEIR TIME GRINDING PIXELS IN THAT VERY GAME.
Time > Money.
The guy who has money and values time more than money is automatically smarter.

So then they go on forums and complain about the game they don't have to play (and shouldn't) because it makes them realize how inferior they are.

Or they are sad to see a company they used to respect stooping to such anti-consumer practices and destroying the franchises they used to love.

I've easily dropped $3k on PoE because it isn't p2w. And in return I have a closet full of swag, signed posters on my walls, a portfolio of signed concept art, dozens of cosmetic only titles and armor sets that are exclusive and can't be bought anymore. I got to meet the developers in New Zealand, even had dinner with one of the original creators of Diablo and all around awesome person David Brevik. (Also great as a fan of Hellgate: London and Marvel Heroes) And an item I worked with the team to create is in the game permanently.

None of this took away from the competitiveness of the game, or incentivized the developers to make the game worse so you would want to pay to skip parts of it.

If I spent that in Diablo Immortal, I might be 5-10% closer to having perfect gems, have armor everyone else can get, and I would get to skip farming for crafting materials or gold.

You guys are so whipped you can't even imagine asking to be treated better, it's rather sad. If the game was so great and worthy of defending, why aren't you playing it rather than sitting on the forums all day trying to get a rise out of people? Probably upset you put money into it and people are calling you ignorant for supporting it.

Games are for entertainment, you should want to invest your time in them. Developers should respect your time and money and be thankful for getting either. Why are you paying to not play a game? Maybe its some kind of financial domination thing I just don't get. Not trying to kink shame.

Not even the $1 deal.

The best part is, the amount of currency you get for the $1 "deal" can't even buy you anything currently in the store. What a joke.

[Elim Garak]

Or they are sad to see a company they used to respect stooping to such anti-consumer practices and destroying the franchises they used to love.

There's nothing anti-consumer with a game that earned over $900k already. Obviously consumers are happy.
And you should be glad that the company got another money maker - maybe they can do D4 better with that or experiment. Like the money from Hearthstone allowed them to try Heroes.

And anyway the Blizzard has died long before DI. So kinda too late to be sad about that or you hafta move on already.

I've easily dropped $3k on PoE because it isn't p2w. And in return I have a closet full of swag, signed posters on my walls, a portfolio of signed concept art, dozens of cosmetic only titles and armor sets that are exclusive and can't be bought anymore. I got to meet the developers in New Zealand, even had dinner with one of the original creators of Diablo and all around awesome person David Brevik. (Also great as a fan of Hellgate: London and Marvel Heroes) And an item I worked with the team to create is in the game permanently.

None of this took away from the competitiveness of the game, or incentivized the developers to make the game worse so you would want to pay to skip parts of it.

You know nothing about the state of DI in years to come. PoE wasn't what it is at release.

If I spent that in Diablo Immortal, I might be 5-10% closer to having perfect gems, have armor everyone else can get, and I would get to skip farming for crafting materials or gold.

You don't know because you didn't

You guys are so whipped you can't even imagine asking to be treated better, it's rather sad.

If you don't pay you don't get to request "better treatment".
And if you don't like how the game treats you - don't play. Whining about it on forums won't change a thing.

If the game was so great and worthy of defending, why aren't you playing it rather than sitting on the forums all day trying to get a rise out of people? Probably upset you put money into it and people are calling you ignorant for supporting it.

I don't even play DI.

[Lolites]

You guys are so whipped you can't even imagine asking to be treated better, it's rather sad.

said to people saying the game can be enjoyed for free by someone who spent 3k (WTF) on similar game...
yep, those who play for free have problems, not you jeez how far out of reality can you really get...

[crusadernero]

You don't like where the gaming is going? Or do you worry about all the people in the future who will have to deal with the gaming when it arrives there?

The former I can understand - and if that's the case - just don't play the games you don't like

The latter I cannot understand.

Yes, I do worry about the vast amount of people that fall victims of the predatory practices of companies like Blizzard. They come in all shapes and forms and they do have negative consequenes for alot of people. This has been many times been compared to gambling, and we all know gambling got many negative issues with it.

The only reason gaming companies keep on going like they do, is because they dont get any backlash from it within gamer communities (well, not enough) and a total lack of control from goverments around the world. The latter will hopefully be changed sooner or later. Its no secret that goverments around the world are rather "behind" in this segment of the world.

- - - Updated - - -

There's nothing anti-consumer with a game that earned over $900k already. Obviously consumers are happy.
And you should be glad that the company got another money maker - maybe they can do D4 better with that or experiment. Like the money from Hearthstone allowed them to try Heroes.
.

Keep telling yourself that. Blizzard has made record revenue for years and what does the gamers get out of it? Can easily be argued we have gotten lesser quality products. Yet, they are raking in the money. Makes you wonder huh?

[Jerot]

I don't even play DI.

Oh that explains a lot, I guess I just don't post here enough to know the regulars sorry. Not much point arguing with a contrarian who just lives on the forums for the controversy. But I'll respond to what's left.

Yeah PoE wasn't the same game on launch, I was there. But all the bones were, and the monetization hasn't really changed much. And we've known what DI was going to be from the moment they announced the partnership with Netease. Zero reason to think its going to get any less egregious.

Making money isn't a measure of morality, scam call centers pull in millions, it doesn't mean people are happy about them. And it's true I didn't put the money in to find out, but the options and odds are readily available, we have a reasonable idea of what to expect per dollar. And it's just pathetic.

There is nothing wrong with critiquing something you haven't personally bought, as long as the claims you are making are reasonable with the amount of information available to you. Blizzard like any company should find feedback valuable, particularly on why or why not a person is willing to spend money on their products. Or how their decisions impact that persons willingness to give them money for other products in the future.

Blizzard may have been on the decline for a while now, but they apparently haven't hit rock bottom yet, DIs monetization on top of everything else represents a new low.

[crusadernero]

You know nothing about the state of DI in years to come. PoE wasn't what it is at release.

WHy would DI be anything like PoE in the coming years when D4 is supposedly coming in a few years?

[Elim Garak]

Yes, I do worry about the vast amount of people that fall victims of the predatory practices of companies like Blizzard.

That's just your narrative, you know. If it makes you feel better to fight for a good cause you've invented for yourself - that's understandable. Silly, but understandable.

Oh that explains a lot, I guess I just don't post here enough to know the regulars sorry. Not much point arguing with a contrarian who just lives on the forums for the controversy. But I'll respond to what's left.

That's like: *spits in someone's face* here, use a tissue.

WHy would DI be anything like PoE in the coming years when D4 is supposedly coming in a few years?

Did I say DI would be like PoE? No, I did not.
I don't know what DI will be when D4 gets out. That was my point. We don't know.

[Jerot]

WHy would DI be anything like PoE in the coming years when D4 is supposedly coming in a few years?

I don't think that was his point, not that he actually seems to stand for anything. It's all just an exercise in pointless debate. Cherry pick the arguments one can make up some excuse for and ignore the rest. Trying to come to a mutual understanding would be like drawing blood from a stone. The conflict is the point.

That's like: *spits in someone's face* here, use a tissue.

It was a bit blunt yes, but I really can't imagine any other reason why someone would devote so much time and energy defending a game they don't even play. From a constantly shifting viewpoint that only remains consistent as a voice against the general consensus of the broader community. There hasn't been anything productive gained from the conversation by either side. The viewpoints are fundamentally opposed.

Any of your arguments could just as easily be used against you. You didn't play, you didn't pay, you don't know, you don't have to play it, you don't have to post about it. And yet here we are. One side is trying to make an argument for change that would improve player experience and value. The other?

[Cracked]

Oh please, theres no reason for the simple lecture of how gaming came to be. Im old enough to remember the time were you bought the game and that was that. Were every game came as it was. The minus back then was that many games should have had more than delivered, but thats kind of besides the point.


Oh and no - its not great. Its not like it will become any better in the coming years. Its only going to get worse. Once someone sold a horse in a game for real money and got bullied. Today suckers demand to throw money and pixels instead of getting a good game.

Also, just because its happend before and/or is done by others, doesnt mean its a healthy approach.

The gaming world has for to long done whatever they wanted to do, especially sucking money out of people. Much more than they should have. Sooner or later the old farts in govs around the world will start acting on this. In several parts of the world they already are.

Also, I see no plus in having mobile games & PC games becoming one thing. DI is a shit game on PC, but good on mobile. Its only on PC to reach out to more dollar. Imagine if D4 was supported for mobile to, the game would have to be gutted. Like DI.

Adjusted for inflation, games from back then would be between $120-$180 dollars. If we assume it keeps getting more expensive to make games (arguably true looking at budgets), best games would be $240 or more probably. Are you ready to drop $240 on a sticker price game? How many would. The models might be predatory, but sticker price games are just outcompeted today. That's the reality.

[Dhrizzle]

I've easily dropped $3k on PoE because it isn't p2w. And in return I have a closet full of swag, signed posters on my walls, a portfolio of signed concept art, dozens of cosmetic only titles and armor sets that are exclusive and can't be bought anymore. I got to meet the developers in New Zealand, even had dinner with one of the original creators of Diablo and all around awesome person David Brevik. (Also great as a fan of Hellgate: London and Marvel Heroes) And an item I worked with the team to create is in the game permanently.

Holy shit PoE have done a clever job pretending to be good guys while making that amount of money in MTX.

[Elim Garak]

It was a bit blunt yes, but I really can't imagine any other reason why someone would devote so much time and energy defending a game they don't even play. From a constantly shifting viewpoint that only remains consistent as a voice against the general consensus of the broader community. There hasn't been anything productive gained from the conversation by either side. The viewpoints are fundamentally opposed.

That's because you make a false assumption that this is about the game.
This thread is about pay to win. Granted it's in the context of a specific game simply because it's the current "offender". But it's not about the game.

Can you imagine something now?

Maybe I like having conversations, maybe even debate people about topics that are interesting to me and I know a lot about? That's crazy, I know.
On the other hand you shouldn't dedicate your brain power thinking about my motivations. I don't think about yours. It's irrelevant.

[chiddie]

It only takes an hour to reach level 30. You haven't reached the grind levels.
Late on, the story only gets you one level. You have to grind for 4 levels before the next story.

There are 6 bundles. The prices are $1, $1, $2, $4, $7, $10.
The extra value becomes less and less.
None of them guarantees a 5-star gem. You have 4% chance to get a random 5-star gem.

At level 50, there is a $20 deal.

I am sure that you can finish the main story without paying.
It is the end game which requires 5-star gem.

No one knows how painful the end game is, so don't spend any money.
Not even the $1 deal.

There are lots of things require to upgrade.
They are either locked behind by a weekly raid or another paywall which we don't know about.

Maybe it’s because I read story and do collateral stuff but it surely took me way more than 1 hour to get to 30. I’m still in dark wood… honestly as much as I don’t like p2w games, I wanna see with my eyes how much p2w it will be. If the full story will be free, I will probably be satisfied enough considering I love Diablo lore and I won’t spend one penny to complete it.

If things will start derailing past max level i don’t know but for the moment these 24 pages are 101% crap for me.

99% of ppl complaining are probably not even 60 yet.

[Kumorii]

after playing it for a while now... it's basically just Lost Ark reskinned.

[Elim Garak]

Any of your arguments could just as easily be used against you. You didn't play, you didn't pay, you don't know, you don't have to play it, you don't have to post about it. And yet here we are. One side is trying to make an argument for change that would improve player experience and value. The other?

I'm not posting about the game though.

And which player's experience that one side wants to improve? I know, and you know. THEIR player experience. Just because you don't like something - doesn't mean it would be an improvement for all players to change it.

Blizzard has way more data on what players want and like about this - and they will adjust accordingly because improving player experience also improves revenue. But I just hope you realize that the opinion of a single whale that dropped more than $1K already outweighs all the opinions of all the free players combined.

And that's what pisses the complainers even more. They know that their opinion is irrelevant in the f2p game. That's why they want REGULASHINGS. That's why they try to twist lockboxes into gambling (they are not). Because that's how you can get REGULASHINGS. To protect the children and people with gambling problems from predatory monetization.

[Nymrohd]

Maybe it’s because I read story and do collateral stuff but it surely took me way more than 1 hour to get to 30. I’m still in dark wood… honestly as much as I don’t like p2w games, I wanna see with my eyes how much p2w it will be. If the full story will be free, I will probably be satisfied enough considering I love Diablo lore and I won’t spend one penny to complete it.

If things will start derailing past max level i don’t know but for the moment these 24 pages are 101% crap for me.

99% of ppl complaining are probably not even 60 yet.

The full story definitely is free. However you will need to grind some xp to get it later on. I think before you get in the last 2-3 zones you are likely to not be at the right level and be forced to grind to open the quests.

That said it's not like grinding is not fun; ARPGs are all about grinding because they are supposed to have very satisfying core gameplay. Now DI is not as satisfying as D3 when it comes to gameplay (maybe it is on mobile, I don't enjoy playing games on mobile though). And there is a wide variety of activities to do to grind. Even once you are done with bounties and quests you can keep spamming dungeons, progress on Challenge rifts (absolutely do that for the legendaries alone), spam Elder Rifts or even full around in the world (pretty good XP). Heck the Battleground is fun as well though the P2W element is much more problematic in PvP.

[rhorle]

You guys are so whipped you can't even imagine asking to be treated better, it's rather sad.

Says the person that spent 3k in PoE. Lets not pretend this really has anything to do with Pay to Win or a company not respecting consumers or any other excuse you've brought up to hate on Blizzard. It really just sounds like a person with the standard X game is bad but Y game is good defense. PoE doesn't respect your time and money any more then Diablo Immortal does. They just found a different way to convince people to hand them money. DI just decided to sell convenience. Which by the way developed as a major part of the Diablo community with Diablo 2. Blizzard tried to make it official with the RMAH in D3. DI isn't is embracing that spirit in a slightly different way.

[Nymrohd]

Seriously???
What's up with all those things you buy for real money?

Didn't everyone (players AND Blizzard) agree that RMAH was the single worst thing they had ever added to Diablo? Now they just added RMShop, which is pretty much the same as RMAH (since we all know that AH sells for Buy Out prices, it's more a shop that auction).

It's a mobile game with a poor PC emulation (it's not even a proper port). The PC game will be D4 and we will get that in a couple of years.

Also DI seems to be far less problematic than Diablo 3 was early on with the RMAH. With DI I still can progress without paying money, I'll just progress a bit more slowly. And as a mobile game I don't expect it to be designed for constant play and long sessions. With D3 you could grind for hours and get nothing decent, pretty much forcing you to buy your gear instead of actually playing for it.

[RobertMugabe]

As soon Diablo 4 comes out, I am sure that everyone who called DI a "franchise killer" will play it on release.

No doubt.

[Elim Garak]

As soon Diablo 4 comes out, I am sure that everyone who called DI a "franchise killer" will play it on release.

No doubt.

Damn, we won't be able to login on release day like with D3!