Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
8
LastLast
  1. #101
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    19,214
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    Honestly it feels like it's aimed at new players, leveling alts, and experimenting in more casual content (Including non-serious PVP). The end-game systems may suffer some, but that's exactly what it seems Blizzard is focusing on: More casual things. And it's readily apparent too, with the 9.2.5 changes to include LFR progression, and the direct intention of making Dragonflight a more 'exploration based' expansion, ala playing an MMORPG for the first time.

    I'm not saying they are succeeding, but to me, it's pretty obvious what they're aiming for. The question is how much will they let the end-game suffer for their casual userbase?
    Literally nothing about this is casual friendly and its amusing to watch people.already line up to blame casuals for what is just obviously severe cutbacks in the budget for the games development.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #102
    How does an entire system redesign possibly seem like a budget cutback lol?

    (Also the budget has not been cut )

  3. #103
    This looks so awesome. Very happy blizz is now trying to cater to casuals more and less to the elitists.

  4. #104
    Looks fun and good. You can show these grumpy old men of MMOC their own photos and they would object to that too.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    No, I didn't miss that fact. It's that it doesn't matter. This is literally the time for people to give opinions. If you wait until it's no longer a work in progress, it's too late for any feedback to be taken into account.

    Besides that, they've stated their design philosophy. They've shown their general approach. That some talents will probably end up slightly different and/or in different places because it's still a WIP isn't really relevant. The objection to pushing baseline utility into optional talents is a response to their overall philosophy that they are using while they design these mockups, and something that isn't likely to change unless the community response convinces them to.
    I never said to wait until the end. They haven't even opened it up to testing by the players. At least wait until Alpha acutally starts before one craps on it.

    All I want is to keep core baseline abilities that classes/specs already have and not move them into talents. I never said anything about creating all new abilities. I never objected to existing talents continuing to be talents.

    Yeah, if they made the talent trees entirely active abilities and entirely new stuff, that would be insane, but there's no reason to do that. Plenty of stuff could be passives that interact with gameplay, the same way that conduits and legendary effects do now, and azerite armor and artifact traits have in the past. Active abilities, for people who want more buttons, could continue to be allowing people to choose abilities currently only available to specific specs, just as they are doing, or to keep active abilities they might have already experienced through covenants, artifacts, neck essences, etc. Maybe a holy paladin could now pick an interrupt, maybe a mage wants to keep Deathbourne, whatever.

    They could easily do this same kind of thing they are already trying to do with these previews, except without putting stuff like interrupts, dispels, etc, into the trees. They could instead make those spots talents ones to improve those things instead. Zero extra bloat there.
    So we go right back to the old trees which was nothing more than a percent increase of an existing talent. YOu might as well not even bpther if that is all it is going to be.

    If you put really important shit in talents, there will be two results:

    (1) either everyone takes these because they absolutely have to, in which case what the point of making it a talent if there isn't any real choice?
    (2) Some people don't take these things and you end up having to make sure the people you play with aren't doing stupid things like heading into a raging week without a tranq or healing without the ability to dispel, etc.
    If this were handled like the old trees you would have a point. However, you will be able to respec freely and not only that, you will be able to save multiple builds at the same time. So this whole "forced choice" does not exist.

    Both of those situations are stupid, and all it requires to "fix" is taking the handful of super important utility or core spells like interrupts out of the trees and keeping them baseline for specs that already have them, and replacing those spots in the trees with things that buff or modify that utility instead. It would not cause any extra bloat, and it addresses a very valid and serious risk that is caused by making those things optional.
    So we go back to the old trees then. THAT is what would be stupid. Being able to respec freely and save multiple builds renders this a non issue. IF your raid team needs 20 poeople with an interrupt, you have a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Literally nothing about this is casual friendly and its amusing to watch people.already line up to blame casuals for what is just obviously severe cutbacks in the budget for the games development.
    Uhh, there are no budget cutbacks. In fact, the budget has increased. What is amusing is people continuing to make basleess claims simply because they do not like something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Ah yes, the "in-progress" defense that people use when Blizzard decides on a shit design during Alpha and continues using it all the way to live. Covenants being one of the most recent examples of this shit, but hardly the first or last. They do this with everything, from classes to systems. They pick a shitty design, players tell them how it is shit and how to fix it, and then players get to suffer through said shit for 6+ months before Blizzard actually acknowledges the feedback and makes any changes.

    It is shit right now, Blizzard has a tendency to fixate on their design without any regard for the actual feedback when it is in the testing phase. This doesn't inspire any confidence that it will be less shit on live, because that isn't the pattern with Blizzard.
    Opinions are not fact. Also, a vocal minority trying to claim what is right doesn't make that fact either. This is the argument people use simply because they don't like something.

    Further, Blizzard will iterate on this many times from now until live. At least wait until Alpha is opened to players to actually work with it first before complaining.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Ah yis. Ready to mald over stupid choices Mages have to make. Would be hilarious if Blink isn't baseline. Also wonder if they focus the survivability of mages on mobility or defensives. People would mald in PvP if it's mobility. Hopefully we don't have to wait for long for other classes.

    Looking at Death Knight and Druid though. I feel like this is gonna widen the power gap from casual to elite. There are so many situational talents in the Blood tree at least, that you loose out on a lot of you try to single spec on everything.



    Can't wait for the community to agree that casters don't take it and force melee to take it. They should give casters back the non-gdc castable while casting interupts for PvE at least.
    What i don’t understand is theres plenty of interrupts but only a few disarms
    DRAGONFLIGHT BETA CLUB

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergin8r View Post
    Wonder how balance will be, seeing as they can't balance 7 choices properly...
    You know there's more than just 7 choices right? You got 3 per row and seven rows...so 21. There are 21 choices. Maybe you shouldn't be the one we listen to on this one.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by obiwnblue View Post
    This looks so awesome. Very happy blizz is now trying to cater to casuals more and less to the elitists.
    honest question - how does this cater to causals ?

    if anything good players will be forced to inspect most likely with extrenal addon talents after invites and kicking anyone who isnt bis build.

    if anything it will make like of casuls suffer more because not only they will meet ith rejection of invites to groups but also kicks after getting invited.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    It's less the "high-end" community and more the "people who think they're high-end" community.

    I'm sure you're familiar with parsebrained idiots who just pick what they're told is best DPS regardless of utility. Those are the people who'll never even consider talenting into interrupts and then whine about not having an interrupt.

    Personally, I like being able to either use the interrupt talent points somewhere else, or pick the talents that increase the value of interrupt, depending on what my role in an encounter will be, and pretty much everyone I know who's actually good at the game appreciates these options as well
    That's pretty much my thought on it. Also: it seems like more specs will have access to an interrupt.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    "Dude you have zero interrupts"

    "Sorry I'm not specced into Wind Shear"

    kek
    Don't worry.

    With this talent change, Blizzard will make all PvE mobs as target dummy that doesn't cast anything. And interrupt will be considered PvP talent.

  11. #111
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Texas(I wish it were CO)
    Posts
    7,512
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Opinions are not fact. Also, a vocal minority trying to claim what is right doesn't make that fact either. This is the argument people use simply because they don't like something.

    Further, Blizzard will iterate on this many times from now until live. At least wait until Alpha is opened to players to actually work with it first before complaining.
    Facts are facts though, it is a fact that Blizzard has a pattern of ignoring player feedback on shit design choices. The pattern exists, you pretending it doesn't change that fact. While it is no means a guarantee that this abominable iteration of the talent system will remain as outright terrible as it currently is, it certainly isn't wise to bet they'll change it significantly until after it has been out on live for at least 2 months.

    It is a fact that this system brings almost no new abilities or passives in its current state, as the majority of it is simply spells being removed from your spellbook and being placed into a talent tree. The few things that aren't currently spells are almost entirely legendary or covenant powers. Do I expect them to cut down on how many baseline abilities they rip out of your class or spec to shove into this terrible talent tree? Not to any meaningful degree. Their iterating on shit design rarely results in anything other than them eventually only partially fixing the problem they created, often 3-12 months down the line from when it went live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  12. #112
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    19,214
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    How does an entire system redesign possibly seem like a budget cutback lol?

    (Also the budget has not been cut )
    literally all based on existing assets. Nothing new designed modeled balanced and tested. Just the same crap reshuffled.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #113
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,560
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Literally nothing about this is casual friendly and its amusing to watch people.already line up to blame casuals for what is just obviously severe cutbacks in the budget for the games development.
    Remaking the talent system cost them more money then just leaving them as is and adding a few bells and whistles, there is no way this is due to cut back.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    literally all based on existing assets. Nothing new designed modeled balanced and tested. Just the same crap reshuffled.
    still a lotta design work. A lot of the abilities will probably be a little different too, esp covenant ones.

    I don't know, but I guess I was never exited about soulbinds or conduits, they all seemed like a waste of resources that could have been spent on actual classes, which in theory is what is going on now!

    Dunno, i think a better criticism is just the usual here that they shouldn't have so many abilities in the trees. I'd rather have stuff to "mutate" them.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    You're both wrong, it's how all of those thing interact with eachother. Balancing baseline skills or talents in a vacuum is the easiest thing ever.
    Balance is a combination of all factors/sources that contribute to throughput.

    That being said they will tweak these and they won't make everyone happy but it is better than feeling weak at the beginning of every expansion when they take things away like in a linear metroid game.
    Last edited by Unholyground; 2022-06-06 at 03:03 AM.
    Lead Game Designer

    YouTube Channel

    https://www.youtube.com/@Nateanderthal

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Literally nothing about this is casual friendly and its amusing to watch people.already line up to blame casuals for what is just obviously severe cutbacks in the budget for the games development.
    I never said they were succeeding with this. But to call this a budget cut is not only boldly disingenuous—we don’t even know how more things of this expansion will work. There wasn’t exactly much revealed besides talents, new race / class, and dragon riding. And of those three, two are completely new iterations. I don’t care if they’re repurposing skeletons or animations, or if the quality is good or bad - they’re committing resources and time to make these things.

    Let alone how the new talent system definitely isn’t a drag and drop change. They most likely are using the same infrastructure as conduits, artifacts, etc. but, if even so, it’s using a lot of time and effort they didn’t even need to do. We could’ve just had the same MoP talents and that’d save a lot of money.

    But they didn’t.

    As for casual appeal, considering the popularity of Classic servers and the resurgence of things being less dumbed down — including other MMORPGs, I’m confident in saying this isn’t that far out there to assume it’s meant for casual players.

    The majority of whom will use and interact with this system. Doesn’t matter if they use icyveins or WoWhead at max level or while leveling. People do this with Path of Exile and many other branching progression systems, and we don’t see them going the MoP talent route.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Balance is a combination of all factors/sources that contribute to throughput.

    That being said they will tweak these and they won't make everyone happy but it is better than feeling weak at the beginning of every expansion when they take things away like in a linear metroid game.
    While I hope this is the case, you still need to factor in a few specs / classes rely heavily on certain stat breakthrough points or just use of said stats in general to function really well. Havoc DH is a great example of a spec that is dog doodoo without enough haste and feedback loops to continue pumping out procs and laser beams. Fury Warrior and Fire mage used to be this way but I don’t know if they improved their innate badluck protection talents and abilities.
    Last edited by PenguinChan; 2022-06-06 at 03:20 AM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    I never said they were succeeding with this. But to call this a budget cut is not only boldly disingenuous—we don’t even know how more things of this expansion will work. There wasn’t exactly much revealed besides talents, new race / class, and dragon riding. And of those three, two are completely new iterations. I don’t care if they’re repurposing skeletons or animations, or if the quality is good or bad - they’re committing resources and time to make these things.

    Let alone how the new talent system definitely isn’t a drag and drop change. They most likely are using the same infrastructure as conduits, artifacts, etc. but, if even so, it’s using a lot of time and effort they didn’t even need to do. We could’ve just had the same MoP talents and that’d save a lot of money.

    But they didn’t.

    As for casual appeal, considering the popularity of Classic servers and the resurgence of things being less dumbed down — including other MMORPGs, I’m confident in saying this isn’t that far out there to assume it’s meant for casual players.

    The majority of whom will use and interact with this system. Doesn’t matter if they use icyveins or WoWhead at max level or while leveling. People do this with Path of Exile and many other branching progression systems, and we don’t see them going the MoP talent route.



    While I hope this is the case, you still need to factor in a few specs / classes rely heavily on certain stat breakthrough points or just use of said stats in general to function really well. Havoc DH is a great example of a spec that is dog doodoo without enough haste and feedback loops to continue pumping out procs and laser beams. Fury Warrior and Fire mage used to be this way but I don’t know if they improved their innate badluck protection talents and abilities.
    Classes that rely too heavily on a stat should get that stat boosted to a point once they hit Max level so that they are not under performing instantly, then once you hit a certain gear level the gear takes over the stats and the bonus reduces as that stat climbs closer to diminishing returns. It is definitely not the most elegant way to solve the issue but it would work for any class that's heavily stated with one major stat.
    Lead Game Designer

    YouTube Channel

    https://www.youtube.com/@Nateanderthal

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    I still think Interrupts need to be a class baseline ability
    Indeed, and at least one baseline CC, they can even make worse versions baseline and add the current SL version as an upgrade in the tree, but making Interrupts and CCs as talents are a terrible idea.

    Many people hate to use CCs and Interrupts, making them something exclusive will give these people an excuse to avoid doing their job.

    It's going to be a shitshow, and like Tziva said it's going to be everywhere.

  19. #119
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    19,214
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Remaking the talent system cost them more money then just leaving them as is and adding a few bells and whistles, there is no way this is due to cut back.
    see not really because on the downside they've literally offered you no new spells or abilities that require modeling, new spell animations, balancing, testing etc etc at the most the new talent system simplest shuffles already existing stuff into a new array for you to pick. Same wine new bottle. The talent rework should also include actual new shit but appears not to include anything. It'll be easy to handle ability bloat... they just stop giving you new ones and in fact make you pick and choose from availability.

    And it also feels awful Are you fucking kidding me I have to put a point into fucking tranquility. Had that spell baseline since fucking time. Now I have to purchase it back. cmon..
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2022-06-06 at 04:04 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #120
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,560
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    see not really because on the downside they've literally offered you no new spells or abilities that require modeling, new spell animations, balancing, testing etc etc at the most the new talent system simplest shuffles already existing stuff into a new array for you to pick. Same wine new bottle. The talent rework should also include actual new shit but appears not to include anything. It'll be easy to handle ability bloat... they just stop giving you new ones and in fact make you pick and choose from availability.

    And it also feels awful Are you fucking kidding me I have to put a point into fucking tranquility. Had that spell baseline since fucking time. Now I have to purchase it back. cmon..
    Even without new spells/spell animations it still cost money to make the new UI, code the new tree's and the branching, make spec specific ability's class wide and balance them, Change the code so some skills are no longer base line, make sure nothing breaks along the way ect ect.

    Literally every hour of work they are putting into these tree's cost them more money then just leaving the old systems alone and having there designers and coders do something more important.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •