Mark of the Wild is dumb.

[Amnaught]

I think your statement is dumb.

WTB MOTW, blessings, mage buff, warlock/hunter (pet) buffs, priest buffs, shaman 4 totems. BRING BACK CLASS FANTASY INTO FANTASY GAME!

Yes, bring back class fantasy!!

Nobody is saying all classes should be the same

I'm saying that the second druid should be just as important as the first one, and the first one shouldn't be such a massive benefit as 3% crit for all raid members

Like, imagine if druids were the only class that could craft Marks of the Wild as items and they could be traded to anyone. So an all-paladin guild still relies on druids in some capacity, but letting one into the raid isnt a borderline necessity.

Or if the buff stacked.

Or if it could only be cast on one character, so eaids with more druids just crit more but the expectation is that youre not going to optimize the number of different classes you bring

Like, healing AoEs stack, the number of healers you bring is important. Can you imagine how boring it would be if all healing was identical regardless of whether you brought one healer or ten?

Bring back symbiosis or something that actually changes up how we play in an interesting way. Mark of the Wild as a passive raid-wide buff is just boring.

[KrayZ33]

Yes, bring back class fantasy!!

Nobody is saying all classes should be the same

I'm saying that the second druid should be just as important as the first one, and the first one shouldn't be such a massive benefit as 3% crit for all raid members

Like, imagine if druids were the only class that could craft Marks of the Wild as items and they could be traded to anyone. So an all-paladin guild still relies on druids in some capacity, but letting one into the raid isnt a borderline necessity.

Or if the buff stacked.

Or if it could only be cast on one character, so eaids with more druids just crit more but the expectation is that youre not going to optimize the number of different classes you bring

Like, healing AoEs stack, the number of healers you bring is important. Can you imagine how boring it would be if all healing was identical regardless of whether you brought one healer or ten?

But the point is that the second XXX shouldn't be as important as the first one.
MotW is that kind of thing that gives a druid a reason to be in a raid.

Less important for mythic,
more important for 10-15 people raids.

Lets not go with 2 DK tanks and 2 Priest and a Paladin for healing.
Lets go with 1 Guardian, 1 DK, 1 Priest, 1 Paladin, 1 Monk when we can.

[Amnaught]

But the point is that the second XXX shouldn't be as important as the first one.
MotW is that kind of thing that gives a druid a reason to be in a raid.

Less important for mythic,
more important for 10-15 people raids.

Lets not go with 2 DK tanks and 2 Priest and a Paladin for healing.
Lets go with 1 Guardian, 1 DK, 1 Priest, 1 Paladin, 1 Monk when we can.

But why?

Whatever happened to "bring the player, not the class"?

Two paladins should bring double the paladin-ness of a one-paladin raid. I'd go as far as saying each heroism class should increase the duration or decrease the cooldown of heroism. If you want more crit, cool, bring more druids, but don't just bring "a" druid for the sake of artificially diversifying a raid's class-makeup.

[bmjclark]

Adding and removing class buffs is pretty much a tradition at this point, we're just going through the motions

[Elbob]

But why?

Whatever happened to "bring the player, not the class"?

Two paladins should bring double the paladin-ness of a one-paladin raid. I'd go as far as saying each heroism class should increase the duration or decrease the cooldown of heroism. If you want more crit, cool, bring more druids, but don't just bring "a" druid for the sake of artificially diversifying a raid's class-makeup.

dude, for 1 that quote is from 2009. From a game dev that no longer even works at the company. Second, The quote is about completing content by avoiding required buffs/spells. They took a clear turn away from that when they made mythic difficulty but its probably alright counting its designed to be peak content, requiring some min/max'ing in mythic is OK. I've also done plenty of prog bosses in mythic missing some of these raid buffs so they aren't even truly required in Mythic just impactful enough you should try to get them.

You can probably do aotc missing numerous raid buffs and be fine aka "bring the player not the class" is alive and well. You should really drop this crusade.

[Palapop]

Just out of curiosity: do you seriously think that "press this button once to give everyone a passive stat buff" (or even have it be active automatically) equals "class fantasy"?

Like, seriously, though?

yes it does. Because you know you need DRUID to give you certain buff. and you need PRIEST to give you stamina buff. And you need SHAMAN or BOOMIE to knock enemies away... etc, etc, etc....That's the CORE of CLASS/spec FANTASY.

[Biomega]

yes it does. Because you know you need DRUID to give you certain buff. and you need PRIEST to give you stamina buff. And you need SHAMAN or BOOMIE to knock enemies away... etc, etc, etc....That's the CORE of CLASS/spec FANTASY.

I'm with you that more class fantasy is good, but a random passive puff you're effectively forced into?

Pass.

Do something else. In fact, you yourself already admitted as much by immediately noting something that ISN'T just a random stat buff. THAT is how class fantasy should work.

[KrayZ33]

But why?

Whatever happened to "bring the player, not the class"?

Two paladins should bring double the paladin-ness of a one-paladin raid. I'd go as far as saying each heroism class should increase the duration or decrease the cooldown of heroism. If you want more crit, cool, bring more druids, but don't just bring "a" druid for the sake of artificially diversifying a raid's class-makeup.

It's called synergy.
You should be disincentivized to stack specs and classes... and buffs like this one is how you achieve that, among other stuff of course.

The quote you are using still applies in general. And the changes you just pointed out would lead to the opposite of what you want.
Especially stuff like decreasing heroism/bloodlust cooldown, which is the exact reason why this "design philosophy" was introduced in the first place, back then, guilds used to swap in a shaman into the "DPS group" every 40 seconds and they ran it with like 6+ of them.

Either way, it's just a buff and it should guarantee at least 1 slot, even if the class performs rather poorly.
Nothing to worry about or rather, nothing to really argue against as it doesn't make or break anything by itself.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

yes it does. Because you know you need DRUID to give you certain buff. and you need PRIEST to give you stamina buff. And you need SHAMAN or BOOMIE to knock enemies away... etc, etc, etc....That's the CORE of CLASS/spec FANTASY.

Personally I'd rather bring a moonkin because of solar beam or treants, not because of a passive buff.

I'd rather bring a hunter because they can binding shot and soothe.

etc!

One of the biggest issues in class design right now imo is that the utility is horribly balanced, and they don't adjust the game nearly quickly enough to compensate. You can pretty easily rattle many specs that no one would ever seriously look for in a group because they have nothing you specifically want.

[shise]

I don't really understand how a completely uninteractive buff gives you class fantasy. Oh for one second at the start of the raid you mark people with a purple paw.
I am all for utility elements that built the fantasy of a spec being back. It's great to have windfury back. The thing is, Legion and MoP are probably the apex of class fantasy in this game. Legion did not have buffs and debuffs that were exclusive to a single class and mostly, neither did MoP (outside Symbiosis).

What´s the point of it all? it´s all pixels for that matter...

[Nymrohd]

You will never understand it no matter how hard will anone try to explain it to you becouse you do not like rpg games yet you keep playing one and compain about rpg in rpg game.

I was 10 when my poor druid that I was so happy I rolled high enough stats (3d6, no rerolls!) got killed by a group of Xvarts while playing in the dingy attic of my FLGS. So yeah, don't try to explain to me what an RPG is. I am saying that fantasy has to do with themes, aesthetics, actions. Mark of the Wild gives me none of that. It's a non-interactive spell you cast once at start of combat, it gives no visual beyond a momentary floating purple paw, its effect is so marginal you'll only be able to see it by comparing logs.
But sure, you can try to explain to me why that matters.

- - - Updated - - -

What´s the point of it all? it´s all pixels for that matter...

There is absolutely a point to a buff if it ties well into your class fantasy. Thorns would give a visual that was clearly druidic magic and in certain iterations it was even reasonably interactive (when it was a CD buff rather than just there). Mark of the Wild is like some sign from a furry rave party.

[Alanar]

Players: Bring the player, not the class! We want to bring who we want!

Blizzard: How about instead we make buffs so universally useful you'll have a GUARANTEED slot! Isn't that good? You always get to raid!

Players: But with all the classes in the game, that's like more than half the raid fixed.

Blizzard: Did we mention it's OLD STUFF? Nostalgia, amirite? Classic WoW? The best ever?

Players: But... we want some say in how we do our group...

Blizzard: MOTW IS BACK BABY! You love it! We know you do!

Players: Yeah okay, I guess there's other games out there after all.

Blizzard: What's happening? Why are people unhappy? Nostalgia? Classic? MOTW? ... Hello?

I laughed harder then I probably should, but idk why this feels so accurate.

ION, iOnn!! You said this would work, why is every one leaving? Ion? Hello? stop ignoring me ffs. (Intern communication)

[hzjf]

nah i actually like classes having unique buffs again.

YES CUZ ITS SO FUN TO NOT DOING YOUR BEST DAMAGE POSSIBLE BECAUSE YOU ARE MISSING CLASS X

no its retarded always has been always will. We dont need stupid Restrictions we need actual Balancing

[Wries]

I'd say it's an unintuitive way of making a class attractive. Buffing w stats is just boring. And it doesn't scale based on your gear either so if say, hypothetically, that a druid is a weak choice then you just don't give them gear because the buff is the same anyway.

Though in a raid setting, whatever, bring a druid. I bet most groups will usually clear that bar.

[enigma77]

This game suffer so hard because of this elite balance mimimi people. If i get a Druid for my raid its cool, if not, i dont care. Instead of wining how about just being a better player, so u can stop of thinking "if we would have get a druid we would have killed this boss!!!"

how about you use your brain for anything other than regulating your breathing for once

[Nynax]

I laughed harder then I probably should, but idk why this feels so accurate.

ION, iOnn!! You said this would work, why is every one leaving? Ion? Hello? stop ignoring me ffs. (Intern communication)

He missed a step, though!! It was more like:

Players: Bring the player, not the class! We want to bring who we want!

Blizzard: How about we make sure every class has similar utility so that it doesn't matter who you bring?

Players: Classes feel homogenized! Now there's no reason to bring half the classes in the game!

Blizzard: Ok, what if we make every class feel unique by taking away half their spells!

Players: This sucks, and now the only classes worth bringing are the ones with the big CD's! We want to Bring the player, not the class!

Blizzard: How about instead we make buffs so universally useful you'll have a GUARANTEED slot! Isn't that good? You always get to raid!

[Gumble]

Sigh Mark of the Wild is like the ONE thing I'm actually excited for...... don't take that from me. We have nothing else.

[Maell]

Getting a stat stick just because tou have X class is boring. Make it have a gameplay component to it.

When a Disc priest ramps, it gives you a stamina buff of x% depending on how strong the ramp was.
When a Resto druid is in tree form you get a stamina buff for how many hot ticks it gave the player while the druid was in tree form.

When a frost mage hits the target with x amount of frost spells/or a specific spell the target is debuffed and is more likely to be crited.
Same thing with fire and arcane.

When a tank mitigates a certain amount of damage the party/raid gets a buff for Damage reduction.

These are some generic ones you can have lots of interactions, but it needs to be something you need to do while fighting and something you can play around with, making the most skilled players take full advantage of this but without leaving the less skilled ones without any power gain, it just won't be optimal.

Most important is that buffs must not be just a checklist before you do a pull on a boss.

[edgesarmy]

Because "optimal" class comps are often up for consideration. Even at the world-first level we've seen different approaches - some might be more clear-cut than others, but there's considerable variance as to what ACTUALLY IS "optimal" on any given fight. Not to mention that this might also change depending on strategy.

With buffs, you have none of that. You bring the buffs. Period. The end. No discussion, no strategy, you just do.

With buffs there could still be variance with what is actually optimal. Let's say all specs of mage had crappy damage (15% below any other spec). It may not be worth bringing a single mage just for the int buff in that scenario. Bringing the fotm OP dps spec may be optimal in that scenario. Particularly if the boss mechanics favor melee on a given fight.

[cocomen2]

Sigh Mark of the Wild is like the ONE thing I'm actually excited for...... don't take that from me. We have nothing else.

AHAHAH, now you gonna be just like shaman, they gonna prune everything you had, and give mark to mage so there would be no reason to keep you in party.
/s