Why do I need to support the Horde rebuilding Tirisfal as an Alliance player?

[Shadowferal]

Battle for Undercity

King Varian Wrynn says: Look around you, brothers and sisters. Open your eyes! Look at what they have done to our kingdom!
King Varian Wrynn says: How much longer will we allow these savages free reign in our world?
King Varian Wrynn says: I have seen the Horde's world. I have been inside their cities. Inside their minds...
King Varian Wrynn says: I know what evil lies in the hearts of orcs.
King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing; What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.

[cparle87]

It was already confirmed by Blizz that she couldnt save Teldrassil. She just thought sending their souls to Shadowlands would lead them to Ardenweald.

Saving Teldrassil and saving the people on it are two different things, cuz.

[VladlTutushkin]

Saving Teldrassil and saving the people on it are two different things, cuz.

She couldnt save the people either. WoW deities dont save their people by overly direct means anyway.

[Aresk]

That was the old council that was slaughtered by Sylvanas. No survivors there.

Annie and several other council members survived the Gathering. What became of them after that has never been mentioned.

Forsaken tried to send envoys to the Stormwind, but every single one was killed. Only after that they approached Horde. Per Sylvanas novel.

This was after the Forsaken exterminated the rest of the Alliance army in Lordaeron.

I don't think you've been paying attention if you think the Alliance was the aggressors.

Garrosh attacked Night Elf lands to take their resources.

Sylvanas led an attack to kill Malfurion and destroy the Night elves.

Garrosh attacked night elf lands only after the post-WotLK treaty had already failed, and that treaty was to cease hostility after Varian declared war (and he had attacked Horde camps in Howling Fjord before even that). While Garrosh's attitude didn't help things, he had nothing to do with the start of the war or the resuming of hostility after the treaty failed.

Genn Greymane led an attack to kill Sylvanas and Forsaken before Sylvanas made her attack on the night elves.

That was after the conflict in Ashran and the naval skirmishes between the Alliance and the Horde. No declaration of war was made there, and azerite was one of the major catalysts for the war, which wasn't discovered at the time of Stormheim. While the attack in Stormheim has plenty of criticisms, stating that it is the start of the fourth war runs counter to every lore reference to the war.

It’s actually not brought on by horde provocations Varian makes demands of thrall based off of Twilight hammer attacks not any thing the horde actually does and when the horde tries to make peace another twilight hammer attack escalates things further after thrall is gone and garrosh is in charge.

There's no evidence that I'm aware of that the skinned night elves were killed by Twilight's Hammer instead of Horde soldiers. Regardless, Thrall as leader of the Horde takes credit for the attack and refuses any reparations, so politically, it's Horde provocation regardless of who performed the deed. I'm not saying the conflict was the Horde's fault (see earlier response), but I'd be interested to know where in lore the first attack was said to be definitively Twilight Hammer.

As an alliance player, are you suppose to view the cinematic with Voss and Calia after you're done with the scenario? Because I saw both characters move to the throne room and then nothing happened and both disappeared.

Did it bug for me or is this solely for horde players?

There's a cinematic? I never saw one on my Alliance character.

[VladlTutushkin]

Annie and several other council members survived the Gathering. What became of them after that has never been mentioned.



This was after the Forsaken exterminated the rest of the Alliance army in Lordaeron.



Garrosh attacked night elf lands only after the post-WotLK treaty had already failed, and that treaty was to cease hostility after Varian declared war (and he had attacked Horde camps in Howling Fjord before even that). While Garrosh's attitude didn't help things, he had nothing to do with the start of the war or the resuming of hostility after the treaty failed.



That was after the conflict in Ashran and the naval skirmishes between the Alliance and the Horde. No declaration of war was made there, and azerite was one of the major catalysts for the war, which wasn't discovered at the time of Stormheim. While the attack in Stormheim has plenty of criticisms, stating that it is the start of the fourth war runs counter to every lore reference to the war.



There's no evidence that I'm aware of that the skinned night elves were killed by Twilight's Hammer instead of Horde soldiers. Regardless, Thrall as leader of the Horde takes credit for the attack and refuses any reparations, so politically, it's Horde provocation regardless of who performed the deed. I'm not saying the conflict was the Horde's fault (see earlier response), but I'd be interested to know where in lore the first attack was said to be definitively Twilight Hammer.



There's a cinematic? I never saw one on my Alliance character.

I love how people ignore Ashran only because Alliance didnt attacked Horde for that. Horde broke the peace, Alliance just chose not to formally escalate the war but the peace was null.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

@Lorgar Aurelian OK, we'll go over what Varian says line by line.

"Look around you" while they're standing in the Undercity, in the horrific Apothecaries' labs. They have seen all manner of experiments including poisoned/plagued prisoners, dissections of civilians, and abomination making. They are there to deal with Putress in the aftermath of his Blight attack. Not one word about orcs, but telling everyone to look at the horrors surrounding them. This is about the undead.

there are no prisoners, Dissected Civillians, or any thing else other then Abomb parts and slimes. https://youtu.be/PxvQKCJagoI?t=289

"These savages" still hasn't named orcs. If anything, a stronger case can be made he's continuing to refer to the undead.

undead to my knowledge never once referred to as "savages" any where ever.

Not orcs' world or cities, "the Horde's world". Transitioning from the undead to the Horde, of which they are members. The Horde has effectively made possible what the Alliance forces are seeing.

Varian has only ever been in orc lands he has never been any where related to any other member of the horde until this quest.

Finally, we get orcs named, as they (at the time) are the primary race and leaders of the Horde, and thus bear responsibility. They have done nothing to stop the undead's work. Yet you are trying to dismiss this valid line of reasoning in favor of "Varian is just racist"?

The horde is litteraly in UC to stop Putress and his work Varian even note's that they are there in force while fighting demoins.

yes hes just racist.

[Feanoro]

undead to my knowledge never once referred to as "savages" any where ever.

So your claim is the word can only mean orcs, as a dogwhistle? Why on earth would that exist? Trolls and other nonplayable races have also been called savages, due to their behaviors.

The horde is litteraly in UC to stop Putress and his work Varian even note's that they are there in force while fighting demoins.

AFTER the Forsaken's little science project was finished and used against them. I repeat, the Horde did nothing to stop that work.

yes hes just racist.

Be a Horde player. Dismiss anything the Horde has done to deserve hatred with "Alliance be racist". Reduce a story that's already not terribly complex to completely day and night simplicity. OK Lorgar.

[Mehrunes]

I don't think you've been paying attention if you think the Alliance was the aggressors.

Garrosh attacked Night Elf lands to take their resources.

Sylvanas led an attack to kill Malfurion and destroy the Night elves.

Except Theramore's forces walked into the Barrens and even captured one of the Horde outposts there before the invasion of Ashenvale began (never mind that Cataclysm only restarted the war started by Varian in WotLK as the factions only had a ceasfire between the expansions as per The Shattering). And as Before the Storm indicates, the factions were already in open conflict before (another) invasion of Ashenvale, vide the need for a ceasefire for the Gathering to happen.

@Lorgar Aurelian OK, we'll go over what Varian says line by line.

"Look around you" while they're standing in the Undercity, in the horrific Apothecaries' labs. They have seen all manner of experiments including poisoned/plagued prisoners, dissections of civilians, and abomination making. They are there to deal with Putress in the aftermath of his Blight attack. Not one word about orcs, but telling everyone to look at the horrors surrounding them. This is about the undead.

Except he was quite clearly not in their city as he's from Stormwind and has fuck all of a claim to Lordaeron. He also was surrounded by a bunch of soldiers from, lo and behold, Stormwind. So, you know, he was using a rhetorical device. Then there's the part where he made a clear distinction between Putress' forces and the Horde before he set out to Undercity, so the idea that he was talking about things they saw in Putress' lab in context of the Horde doesn't really pan out.

"These savages" still hasn't named orcs. If anything, a stronger case can be made he's continuing to refer to the undead.

Except he did name the Orcs in the last sentence. And since there was no other subject in his speech, he was referring to them because of how language works.

Not orcs' world or cities, "the Horde's world". Transitioning from the undead to the Horde, of which they are members. The Horde has effectively made possible what the Alliance forces are seeing.

But since the only Horde city he's been was Orgrimmar, he was talking about Orgrimmar. Because context is a thing no matter how hard you try to ignore it.

Finally, we get orcs named, as they (at the time) are the primary race and leaders of the Horde, and thus bear responsibility. They have done nothing to stop the undead's work. Yet you are trying to dismiss this valid line of reasoning in favor of "Varian is just racist"?

Finally, we get Thrall specifically, as the Horde's leader, who is responsible in one way or another for all the Horde's evils. It is his responsibility to either stop the Horde's aggressive behaviors or answer for them.

Weird how he didn't say squat about their responsibility then. Could have something to do with the whole "Putress isn't Horde in Varian's eyes" thing.

Also, this isn't even his declaration of war. In his declaration of war he talks about Orcs, Orcs and more Orcs, only briefly calling Sylvanas a witch.

This was after the Forsaken exterminated the rest of the Alliance army in Lordaeron.

While technically correct, it doesn't really change anything in regards to whether Alliance was violent towards Forsaken or not, which was the main point being discussed in those posts. The Alliance didn't know about what happened to Garithos' army so it wasn't the reason for them attacking Sylvanas' envoys. Hell, Anduin outright apologized for the envoy thing.

Garrosh attacked night elf lands only after the post-WotLK treaty had already failed, and that treaty was to cease hostility after Varian declared war (and he had attacked Horde camps in Howling Fjord before even that). While Garrosh's attitude didn't help things, he had nothing to do with the start of the war or the resuming of hostility after the treaty failed.

Garrosh didn't even restart the war. He only invaded in the wake of the Cataclysm because he sensed an opportunity. Northwatch troops attacked the Barrens before it.

That was after the conflict in Ashran and the naval skirmishes between the Alliance and the Horde. No declaration of war was made there, and azerite was one of the major catalysts for the war, which wasn't discovered at the time of Stormheim. While the attack in Stormheim has plenty of criticisms, stating that it is the start of the fourth war runs counter to every lore reference to the war.

The only known casualty of the conflict in Ashran is a guy whose foot got hurt and the factions buried the hatchet at the start of Legion. And Before the Storm makes it clear that the factions were already in open conflict before Sylvanas even talked to Saurfang about Ashenvale.

There's no evidence that I'm aware of that the skinned night elves were killed by Twilight's Hammer instead of Horde soldiers. Regardless, Thrall as leader of the Horde takes credit for the attack and refuses any reparations, so politically, it's Horde provocation regardless of who performed the deed. I'm not saying the conflict was the Horde's fault (see earlier response), but I'd be interested to know where in lore the first attack was said to be definitively Twilight Hammer.

The Twilight Hammer agent that tried to kill Hamuul made a direct comparison between the two attacks in how Garrosh is being blamed for both. As for Thrall, in that exact same dialogue with Jaina he said he has yet to find out who the perpetrators are, so him taking responsibility was completely premature.

I love how people ignore Ashran only because Alliance didnt attacked Horde for that. Horde broke the peace, Alliance just chose not to formally escalate the war but the peace was null.

The peace was so null the factions formally worked together at the start of Legion.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There's no evidence that I'm aware of that the skinned night elves were killed by Twilight's Hammer instead of Horde soldiers. Regardless, Thrall as leader of the Horde takes credit for the attack and refuses any reparations, so politically, it's Horde provocation regardless of who performed the deed. I'm not saying the conflict was the Horde's fault (see earlier response), but I'd be interested to know where in lore the first attack was said to be definitively Twilight Hammer.

There's a bit about it in the shattering book about how an orc named I believe Gorak did it and was actively trying to spread suspicion that it was Garrosh even before hew as warcheif.

[VladlTutushkin]

--- snip ---

“Worked together” but not formally. There was no treaty.

Mod Edit: There's no need to quote a giant post for a one-line response.

[Mehrunes]

Be a Horde player. Dismiss anything the Horde has done to deserve hatred with "Alliance be racist". Reduce a story that's already not terribly complex to completely day and night simplicity. OK Lorgar.

This rings rather hollow when you're deliberately failing to discern the difference between "a particular Alliance character be racist" (which was the actual topic of @Lorgar Aurelian's claims) and "Alliance be racist" or pretend that having genuine grievances (like Varian's history with Orcs enslaving him) somehow magically prevents one from also being a bigot (like Varian's history with blaming the Horde for all wrongdoing on Azeroth even when he has no evidence, while we as players with outside knowledge know that he's objectively wrong).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So your claim is the word can only mean orcs, as a dogwhistle? Why on earth would that exist? Trolls and other nonplayable races have also been called savages, due to their behaviors.

while it obviously can apply to other horde races Orcs are the only race Varian actually has any experience with and it is never to my knowledge used to refer to forsaken which is what matters.

AFTER the Forsaken's little science project was finished and used against them. I repeat, the Horde did nothing to stop that work.

No one in the horde even knows what Said word was other then Sylvanas, you can say they should have stopped it but no one even knew it was going on in the undercity the horde finds out about it at the same time the alliance does in Hollowing Fjord and no one ever learns how it was made or that it used live test subjects.

Be a Horde player. Dismiss anything the Horde has done to deserve hatred with "Alliance be racist". Reduce a story that's already not terribly complex to completely day and night simplicity. OK Lorgar.

I’m not horde player I’m a dwarf player.

I also haven’t dismissed any thing the horde has done I’ve said multiple times they are totally responsible for the things they have actually done but the things done by the TH or legion obviously aren’t they’re fault even if Varian wrongly attributes to them based off nothing but his own racism.

[Mehrunes]

there are no prisoners, Dissected Civillians, or any thing else other then Abomb parts and slimes. https://youtu.be/PxvQKCJagoI?t=289

Cheers for that, been a while since I've watched it so I forgot that. And I'm thoroughly shocked that there's not even as little as actual identifiable corpses to Alliance narrative being pushed.

There's a bit about it in the shattering book about how an orc named I believe Gorak did it and was actively trying to spread suspicion that it was Garrosh even before hew as warcheif.

Gorkrak.

“Worked together” but not formally. There was no treaty.

There was no formal treaty after MoP either, so you're trying to establish a difference where there is none. The level of cooperation seen at the Broken Shore, where the Alliance went as far as providing the Horde with intel gathered by SI:7 (which by the way is why everything there went to shit, because Shaw failed there spectacularly as per usual), clearly indicates peaceful relations at the time. Because you kinda don't exchange intel with your enemies.

No one in the horde even knows what Said word was other then Sylvanas, you can say they should have stopped it but no one even knew it was going on in the undercity the horde finds out about it at the same time the alliance does in Hollowing Fjord and no one ever learns how it was made or that it used live test subjects.

Speaking of Howling Fjord, the Alliance attacked the Horde position there right at the start of the zone, before they even got a whiff of the Blight later on in its questline. And long before the Wrathgate. Which is why the attempts to misrepresent Varian's behavior in Undercity are futile anyway.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Cheers for that, been a while since I've watched it so I forgot that. And I'm thoroughly shocked that there's not even as little as actual identifiable corpses to Alliance narrative being pushed.

I don't think I've actually seen it since it was live, but I remembered the abundance of slime's but not a single cage or zombie so figured it was worth checking, though to be fair I also didn't remember the Abomb parts.

Gorkrak.

ah I was close to Remembering the right name at least.

[VladlTutushkin]

Cheers for that, been a while since I've watched it so I forgot that. And I'm thoroughly shocked that there's not even as little as actual identifiable corpses to Alliance narrative being pushed.




Gorkrak.




There was no formal treaty after MoP either, so you're trying to establish a difference where there is none. The level of cooperation seen at the Broken Shore, where the Alliance went as far as providing the Horde with intel gathered by SI:7 (which by the way is why everything there went to shit, because Shaw failed there spectacularly as per usual), clearly indicates peaceful relations at the time. Because you kinda don't exchange intel with your enemies.




Speaking of Howling Fjord, the Alliance attacked the Horde position there right at the start of the zone, before they even got a whiff of the Blight later on in its questline. And long before the Wrathgate. Which is why the attempts to misrepresent Varian's behavior in Undercity are futile anyway.

In fact you DO exchange intel with enemies when you know they will use it to take down another enemy. It is not most oftenly used strategy but it is not uncommon either.

[Feanoro]

In fact you DO exchange intel with enemies when you know they will use it to take down another enemy. It is not most oftenly used strategy but it is not uncommon either.

So, much like Blizzard, we can add "military strategy and tactics" to the "Things Mehrunes Doesn't Know Shit About" list.

[Mardux]

We had BfA which told the story of the Horde being irredeemable evil and supporting Sylvanas until the very last moment, when SHE ditched THEM (except a very few who rebelled before that, but only after Baine was taken prisoner by her and only because of that, not because of the atrocities she ordered).
Then we had SL where the Horde/Alliance story was not touched at all and instead focused on Sylvanas and how to humiliate the Alliance again and again.

I understand there is no WAR currently (for whatever reason, that too makes no sense), but there is a huge leap between "let's not kill each other anymore on sight" and "let us help you rebuild your fortresses that you used in the last war against us."

BFA? That expansion that started off with Genn choosing to break the cease-fire between Alliance and Horde? That same expansion where the Alliance attacked a group on the offchance that they *might* join the horde? That BFA?

[Mehrunes]

In fact you DO exchange intel with enemies when you know they will use it to take down another enemy. It is not most oftenly used strategy but it is not uncommon either.

Right. Do give examples. Particularly where the nation giving intel then engages in joint military action with their enemy they gave the intel to.

Same goes to you @Feanoro. I'm waiting with bated breath for you to impress me with your military genius.

BFA? That expansion that started off with Genn choosing to break the cease-fire between Alliance and Horde? That same expansion where the Alliance attacked a group on the offchance that they *might* join the horde? That BFA?

What? Genn's first appearance in BFA is during the Alliance attack on Lordaeron. He wasn't breaking any ceasefires there.

[ThatsOurEric]

The fuck is this tribalism bullshit.

It's a game that has 2 perspectives. You're not pigeonholed or behooven to stick to one fucking side.
Seeing the story from both sides is actually a good thing.

Seriously, the lack of braincells on players in this game sometimes.

---
Edit
---

This isn't trolling, or anything remotely close to it. Whoever thought it was, is one of those I
mentioned earlier, lacking in braincells.

[ONCHEhap]

What even is the seed for? Teldrassil was meant as a replacement for Nordrassil but they have the original world tree back now, so why is it such a big deal that they can grow another?

Blizzard kinda forgot about that.

They tend to be quite forgetful