Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Kumorii]

Think of it this way - a free game cannot get support any other way than thu the shop. That's why there is the shop in the first place. So it all boils down - whether you want to support the game. It's your money, your decision. Another point - after you pay in the game - you become a relevant customer to the devs. Your feedback (and metrics) will have weight (proportionally to the amount paid obviously - p2w is everywhere lol)

Yeah I know. It's just difficult to show you support the game while not supporting the shop when the only way to show support for the game is through the shop

- - - Updated - - -

You can always buy the cheapest version of the battle pass. It's like a reasonable sub and it gives a little bit of everything.

the problem isn't what to spend it on, it's how it'll be perceived by the devs. I'm afraid it'll be seen as I support said monetisation.
Wonder if I should send feedback somehow explaining I want to show support, but not wanting to show support for their shop.

[Elim Garak]

Most people are in agreement the core experience is pretty good for a mobile game.

That's the only thing that matters to most people.

The issue was always the monetization because of how it disrupts balance and makes the power scaling so money dependent that there is no reason to play it any way other than casually.

There is no issue for most people and there is no disruption in balance, power scaling etc.
It's all in your head if you think about it - a feedback loop. You think about it - it's in your head - you think about it more - you see it everywhere - you think about it even more - it's in your head.

You just hit a progression wall where the only meaningful upgrade is legendary gems, and your free access amounts to a limited demo of a paid feature. PvP/in-world interactions will become less enjoyable the longer your server exists, as P2W players get further and further ahead.

There's no progression wall. A progression wall is also called a paywall - and a paywall has always been "You must empty your wallet before venturing forth" - like you cannot actually proceed until you pay - there are no paywalls in Diablo Immortals - well not to my knowledge.

In a free to play game - paying customer is always ahead - and no one ever have been able to prove that it's a bad thing because it would be akin to proving that commerce and economy is a bad thing - and only commies think like that.

[Nymrohd]

the problem isn't what to spend it on, it's how it'll be perceived by the devs. I'm afraid it'll be seen as I support said monetisation.
Wonder if I should send feedback somehow explaining I want to show support, but not wanting to show support for their shop.

That's why I suggested the battle pass one. Because you only really get the reward from that (or if you'd want to spend more, the prodigy one) if you actually play the game. They just improve the rewards you get for playing the game further instead of just giving you things now and letting you skip the game.

[Mendzia]

well thats because you have so many old gamers now with way to much disposable $$$ who dont mind blowing it on cyber goodies the same way some people spend money on cigarets / alcohol / drugs etc.

Yes, becuase the money i won't use on this dogshit greedy game i will totally waste on drugs (i never tried it and never will), alcohol (i drink once for around 3 months) and cigaretes (i do not smoke and even hate when other person close to me do that).
Great argument... now i wait for 'but other mobile games also do this so it is ok' one.

[BeepBoo]

In a free to play game - paying customer is always ahead - and no one ever have been able to prove that it's a bad thing because it would be akin to proving that commerce and economy is a bad thing - and only commies think like that.

People typically play competitive games and sports specifically to CIRCUMVENT p2w and leave it in the hands of skill.

"But diablo isn't competitive!" Anything that has any type of stick measuring and differing outcomes based on power is competitive or will have a competitive following of some sort, even if it wasn't intended to be that in the first place (which diablo immortal absolutely is competitive in part).

Your success in a game shouldn't be tied to your income.

Also, LoL is f2p and paying customers are basically never ahead. You can unlock everything basically as soon as it's available if you're a regular player. Even then, unlocking every character in the game costs no where near as much as getting good stats in diablo.

Really, the only game genre you're talking about are mobile-based games with gacha mechanics or other artificial limitations and p2w aspects.

[Kumorii]

There's no progression wall. A progression wall is also called a paywall - and a paywall has always been "You must empty your wallet before venturing forth" - like you cannot actually proceed until you pay - there are no paywalls in Diablo Immortals - well not to my knowledge.

In a free to play game - paying customer is always ahead - and no one ever have been able to prove that it's a bad thing because it would be akin to proving that commerce and economy is a bad thing - and only commies think like that.

Afaik there are daily limits to things which you can bypass if you pay. Lost Ark have the same. You can do maybe 2-3 runs after that you gain nothing unless you pay for "tickets" that grant you rewards.
So it's sort of a paywall, but it's not stopping you from playing, but you hardly gain any progression from it.
Elder Rifts are at least working like that, you gain crests daily, but then you have to buy more crests. You can still run the rift, but you gain no runes whatsoever, which is the reason to run the rift. etc etc.

- - - Updated - - -

That's why I suggested the battle pass one. Because you only really get the reward from that (or if you'd want to spend more, the prodigy one) if you actually play the game. They just improve the rewards you get for playing the game further instead of just giving you things now and letting you skip the game.

Ah right, I see. Seems like the best option tbh.
I also got a survey invitation so planning on giving feedback there, shame the UI for it is horrible on PC and mouse disappears after a few seconds so it's a pain to navigate it.
The PC port is pretty good but have some severe issues, like my keybindings stop working until I press another ability or I have to go into settings menu and close it

[ClassicPeon]

Nothing about the OP is giving feedback. It also shows inaccuracies. Besides do you honestly believe that any amount of feedback will remove the monetization method from a mobile game that is released? Blizzard didn't take a huge nosedive with the announcement of Diablo Immortal. Stop being overly dramatic because they made a second mobile game. Remember Hearthstone was their first mobile game that is heavily monetized as well and yet it doesn't get hate because it didn't become a meme with its announcement.

Also I am sure your daughter and son wouldn't have this game on their tablet even it it didn't have pay to win. Because you already implied the game was bad with its announcement before any pay to win was known. So again stop being overly dramatic and using your kids to prop up your claim. Lol.

Ofcourse they did. If you didnt see the nosedive that the diablo immortal reveal gave them then you are absolutely blind. I dont think i've ever seen a more failed reveal of a game ever. Stop lying to yourself. Or at least stop making me laugh that you think you can convince me you arent lying to yourself.

I havent said there is amything wrong with making a mobile game. And hearthstone actually had several controversies with its monitization system and the fact that you dont know that shows you are just making shit up on the go.

I havent implied the game is bad? Do you always need to make strawmans when you try to argue? Is "stop being dramatic" your go to sentence for when you cant actually set up a simple argument?

[KrayZ33]

I find the "but it's free" argument to be counterproductive for us, the consumer.

It doesn't take long to figure out that this game could be better, but isn't due to the monetization model.
It's not like any of you guys wouldn't enjoy it even more if the 5* gems would be more readily available, because it most likely (I wouldn't know, lmao, but ask those that spent 500+$ on this game, and they seem to agree) is more fun to play with those.
The power spikes, the extra resonance etc. It's stuff you will most likely never get to enjoy in the same way because it's *designed* to be behind a paywall and designed to make you spend money.

Or to take a look at another game where it's more "obvious" yet also not important to "clearing" the game, but it's really not a single bit different:

Genshin Impact character constellations.

as a F2P, you'll have to decide between getting the characters you want and getting *a* character you want with all the abilities unlocked, that are in some cases changing how the characters can be played as and with whom they share a synergy.
It's great that you can Genshin Impact for free. It really is. It's also great that you can play D:I for free. But the monetization model is made in a way that a "dolphin" or normal human being that is willing to pay 50-60€ on a game (or even 100€) won't achieve *anything*. It's like a drop of water on a hot stone. It doesn't make a difference. It's irrelevant.

You get to enjoy a worse version of the game. Your *gameplay* is affected by this. This isn't just about skins or goodies. You play a different kind of game than the guy who spends 1000€ on this and the game is made to be that way. It starts with QoL improvements and goes all the way over to the actual gameplay.

I'm just happy that this is just a mobile game.

[Jerot]

https://www.twitch.tv/quin69/clip/Sp...s7CrQsxBkiINTu

No gambling elements by the way. Definitely not a slot machine.

[Nymrohd]

Afaik there are daily limits to things which you can bypass if you pay. Lost Ark have the same. You can do maybe 2-3 runs after that you gain nothing unless you pay for "tickets" that grant you rewards.
So it's sort of a paywall, but it's not stopping you from playing, but you hardly gain any progression from it.
Elder Rifts are at least working like that, you gain crests daily, but then you have to buy more crests. You can still run the rift, but you gain no runes whatsoever, which is the reason to run the rift. etc etc.

- - - Updated - - -



Ah right, I see. Seems like the best option tbh.
I also got a survey invitation so planning on giving feedback there, shame the UI for it is horrible on PC and mouse disappears after a few seconds so it's a pain to navigate it.
The PC port is pretty good but have some severe issues, like my keybindings stop working until I press another ability or I have to go into settings menu and close it

There is a reason to run rifts even with no crests tbh. It's a fast way to level battle pass and you may get the quest to do 6 Elder Rifts.

On the PC port I personally have issues with the UI. I keep clicking parts of the UI during hectic combat.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.twitch.tv/quin69/clip/Sp...s7CrQsxBkiINTu

No gambling elements by the way. Definitely not a slot machine.

Indeed, it's not a slot machine. Because expressions have specific meanings! Glad we agreed

Please watch some other streamer btw. You are obviously addicted.

[Caerrona]

I find the "but it's free" argument to be counterproductive for us, the consumer.

It doesn't take long to figure out that this game could be better, but isn't due to the monetization model.
It's not like any of you guys wouldn't enjoy it even more if the 5* gems would be more readily available, because it most likely (I wouldn't know, lmao, but ask those that spent 500+$ on this game, and they seem to agree) is more fun to play with those.
The power spikes, the extra resonance etc. It's stuff you will most likely never get to enjoy in the same way because it's *designed* to be behind a paywall and designed to make you spend money.

Or to take a look at another game where it's more "obvious" yet also not important to "clearing" the game, but it's really not a single bit different:

Genshin Impact character constellations.

as a F2P, you'll have to decide between getting the characters you want and getting *a* character you want with all the abilities unlocked, that are in some cases changing how the characters can be played as and with whom they share a synergy.
It's great that you can Genshin Impact for free. It really is. It's also great that you can play D:I for free. But the monetization model is made in a way that a "dolphin" or normal human being that is willing to pay 50-60€ on a game (or even 100€) won't achieve *anything*. It's like a drop of water on a hot stone. It doesn't make a difference. It's irrelevant.

You get to enjoy a worse version of the game. Your *gameplay* is affected by this. This isn't just about skins or goodies. You play a different kind of game than the guy who spends 1000€ on this and the game is made to be that way. It starts with QoL improvements and goes all the way over to the actual gameplay.

I'm just happy that this is just a mobile game.

I'm not playing a worse version of the game because I'm not an insecure piece of garbage worried about other players.

I was also raised correctly (I guess? Somehow this isn't common knowledge?) I don't
A) voluntarily do optional things I don't enjoy
B) while doing those completely voluntary optional things, come and cry my heart out on mmo-c

This is wow 2.0 with morons going full retard "OMFG BLIZZ MADE ME DOWNLOAD IT AND HAS A GUN TO MY HEAD TO BUY GEMS OMG HELP"

[Nymrohd]

Btw I wonder if we will face Diablo in a later update. Or even an archangel.

[chiddie]

Most people are in agreement the core experience is pretty good for a mobile game.

The issue was always the monetization because of how it disrupts balance and makes the power scaling so money dependent that there is no reason to play it any way other than casually.
You just hit a progression wall where the only meaningful upgrade is legendary gems, and your free access amounts to a limited demo of a paid feature. PvP/in-world interactions will become less enjoyable the longer your server exists, as P2W players get further and further ahead.



Because one is a game that makes people want to spend 4+ hours playing it, and the other is a game that makes people want to pay to not play it.

It's like if a movie released as a 20 hour unedited cut full of junk and advertisements and you had to pay extra to get the 1h 30m "actual movie" edition. Instead of charging for behind the scenes, director commentary, collectibles, or an extended cut.

Reasons are irrelevant in my example. A thing is either healthy or it’s not, it does not become healthy or unhealthy basing on personal perspective. You can do it regardless it being unhealthy, but it still is unhealthy.

Me playing 5 hours a day to Vanilla WoW back then unhealthy. Me spending today 100 euros per month in WoW tokens while playing 10 hours per week is unhealthy either (not doing it ofc it’s just an example).

In the end, let people play the way they want. If you don’t like whatever game because you feel it’s p2w, move on.

[KrayZ33]

I'm not playing a worse version of the game because I'm not an insecure piece of garbage worried about other players.

I was also raised correctly (I guess? Somehow this isn't common knowledge?) I don't
A) voluntarily do optional things I don't enjoy
B) while doing those completely voluntary optional things, come and cry my heart out on mmo-c

This is wow 2.0 with morons going full retard "OMFG BLIZZ MADE ME DOWNLOAD IT AND HAS A GUN TO MY HEAD TO BUY GEMS OMG HELP"

Just because you are in denial that a "better version" exist doesn't mean you aren't playing the inferior version of the game.
I have no idea why you think you were raised correctly if you can't even comprehend such a simple thing

This game is objectively worse as a F2P and that doesn't mean you should or have to spent money or that it's "worth it" to spend money.
But your experience is just worse and even you would enjoy the experience the player has with the ability to spent, whenever he wants to, more.

You can scream "But I like this game, and I don't care if someone else has more fun than me" all you want.
That's not even something I argued against, but it seems like you didn't understand that either.

[Jerot]

Indeed, it's not a slot machine. Because expressions have specific meanings! Glad we agreed

Please watch some other streamer btw. You are obviously addicted.

Yeah, a slot machine gives you the chance of winning money back. DI is a money black hole bigger than Genshin, Raid Shadow Legends, and Lost Ark combined.

Not a huge fan of Quin69, but he makes great examples of how the game punishes players just to make more money. Like how you can't out paragon grind the whales, buying gear is the only thing that matters: https://www.twitch.tv/quin69/clip/Cr...44NepcyWsSIQg8

I'm more amused at the fact he wasted over $10k and still didn't get what he wanted more than his actual content.

Only familiar with him from Path of Exile, but there I usually watch Zizaran or ZiggyD, with Mathil1 and RaizQT as my fall backs. People who don't rage for content.

[chiddie]

People typically play competitive games and sports specifically to CIRCUMVENT p2w and leave it in the hands of skill.

"But diablo isn't competitive!" Anything that has any type of stick measuring and differing outcomes based on power is competitive or will have a competitive following of some sort, even if it wasn't intended to be that in the first place (which diablo immortal absolutely is competitive in part).

Your success in a game shouldn't be tied to your income.

Also, LoL is f2p and paying customers are basically never ahead. You can unlock everything basically as soon as it's available if you're a regular player. Even then, unlocking every character in the game costs no where near as much as getting good stats in diablo.

Really, the only game genre you're talking about are mobile-based games with gacha mechanics or other artificial limitations and p2w aspects.

Never understood why instead it’s legit to tie the success on how much time you can invest into the game.

Again, having a lot of spare time is not skill related by any meaning.

[Elim Garak]

People typically play competitive games and sports specifically to CIRCUMVENT p2w and leave it in the hands of skill.

No. You've just invented that. Even in real sports there's the issue of doping. Everyone dopes. But it's who can pay the most gets a pass.
No one wants to circumvent anything - people just want to have fun. Different folks different strokes.
And if you look at so called cyber sprotsmen - you will immediately see a lot of p2w in their hardware and energy drinks product placement. Skill can only get you this far - when everyone is on the same skill level.

"But diablo isn't competitive!" Anything that has any type of stick measuring and differing outcomes based on power is competitive or will have a competitive following of some sort, even if it wasn't intended to be that in the first place (which diablo immortal absolutely is competitive in part).

Your definition of what is or isn't competitive is vague and very general. Everything is competitive. Even this forum. According to your definition. And it is. Competitive but we are not talking about THAT kind of competitions here.

Your success in a game shouldn't be tied to your income.

In what game? Is it fair to say that it's ok for there to be games in which your success IS tied to your income? Like what's wrong with that is there's a market for it? If it's not your shtick - don't play.

Also, LoL is f2p and paying customers are basically never ahead. You can unlock everything basically as soon as it's available if you're a regular player. Even then, unlocking every character in the game costs no where near as much as getting good stats in diablo.

Great, there's also Fortnite, exactly like that, also Warframe. Awesome - go play them. Why are you wasting your time trying to convince others to not play the game you don't like?

Really, the only game genre you're talking about are mobile-based games with gacha mechanics or other artificial limitations and p2w aspects.

Every game has artificial limitations. And yeas we are talking about f2p games here with gacha mechanics - because Diablo Immortals is one such game.

Afaik there are daily limits to things which you can bypass if you pay. Lost Ark have the same. You can do maybe 2-3 runs after that you gain nothing unless you pay for "tickets" that grant you rewards.
So it's sort of a paywall, but it's not stopping you from playing, but you hardly gain any progression from it.

Oh you can look at it the same way there's a daily or weekly cap on how much currency/items you can get in WoW. Clearly it's not put there for monetization because there's no monetization around that in WoW.
In free to play games - there's. The only difference.

I find the "but it's free" argument to be counterproductive for us, the consumer.

It doesn't take long to figure out that this game could be better, but isn't due to the monetization model.
It's not like any of you guys wouldn't enjoy it even more if the 5* gems would be more readily available, because it most likely (I wouldn't know, lmao, but ask those that spent 500+$ on this game, and they seem to agree) is more fun to play with those.

If you had 5* gems readily available - everyone would have them pretty fast and get bored. The game is about getting them the hard way. And if you want them the fast way - pay. Fair enough.

it's that case of "you think that you want it but you don't" that guy was spot on when he said that.

[Nymrohd]

Never understood why instead it’s legit to tie the success on how much time you can invest into the game.

Again, having a lot of spare time is not skill related by any meaning.

Never understood why success has to be tied with skill

[Kumorii]

Oh you can look at it the same way there's a daily or weekly cap on how much currency/items you can get in WoW. Clearly it's not put there for monetization because there's no monetization around that in WoW.
In free to play games - there's. The only difference.

Well, yeah... implementation matters. If WoW had ways to pay to remove the weekly / daily caps it would be a sort of paywall as well.

[s_bushido]

Not a huge fan of Quin69, but he makes great examples of how the game punishes players just to make more money. Like how you can't out paragon grind the whales, buying gear is the only thing that matters: https://www.twitch.tv/quin69/clip/Cr...44NepcyWsSIQg8

I'm more amused at the fact he wasted over $10k and still didn't get what he wanted more than his actual content.

I'm sorry, I haven't been following this at all, but if the monetization of the game is a 60+ page-worthy scandal, what does it say that people are using a guy who apparently spent $8k+ on it to back up the claims about how terrible this all is? Like...isn't he part of the problem?